Robots and Will Worshipers

[Rudometkin]

I don't understand why you insist on placing that limitation at God's feet. Because of sin, WE limit our subsequent options.
God's being selective in His application of grace is not a violation of our beginning free will. Without it, we constantly paint ourselves into a corner. The end.

"For the wages of sin is death,
but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23 NKJV

That "free" gift has conditions to it. Namely, we surrender our will to Him.

Jesus said,
"For whoever desires to save his life will lose it,
but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it." Matthew 16:25 NKJV

You taught that no choices means no effectual free will, and that God can limit our choices. Yet, you say He does not violate our free will.

Therefore, you must believe that limiting effectual free will is not a violation of free will.

Am I mistaken?

 

[marks]

Marks, what happened to order and completion?

I like to cut to the chase, and in particular with a topic like this one.

Please correct me if I'm mistaken . . .

Your premise for the discussion is concerning whether God controls everything, included all we think do and say, or whether He gives some of that over to others, to make choices that do not originate from the mind and heart of God.

I think this is easily determined from Scripture, and showed one such passage in Ecclesiastes.

You apparently have no comment to make on that, but choose to fault my discussion.

OK.

Much love!

 

[marks]

but they are fitting for my intentions.

Which are?

 

[marks]

You taught that no choices means no effectual free will, and that God can limit our choices. Yet, you say He does not violate our free will.

Therefore, you must believe that limiting effectual free will is not a violation of free will.

Am I mistaken?

What do you consider "free will" to be?

Do you believe you have "free will"?

Much love!

 

[Renniks]

That you think God can be a liar hints at the amount of reverence you have for Him.

What do you mean about God being upset? Perhaps if we define 'upset' and work from there then things might make sense for you.

You are a liar, if you imply I said that God can be a liar. God can't lie, therefore determinism is hogwash.
God is mad at his people often in the Torah. Why would he be angry at people for doing exactly what he programmed them to do? It makes the whole Bible meaningless and contradictory.

 

[Rudometkin]

I like to cut to the chase, and in particular with a topic like this one.

Please correct me if I'm mistaken . . .

Your premise for the discussion is concerning whether God controls everything, included all we think do and say, or whether He gives some of that over to others, to make choices that do not originate from the mind and heart of God.

I think this is easily determined from Scripture, and showed one such passage in Ecclesiastes.

You apparently have no comment to make on that, but choose to fault my discussion.

OK.

Much love!

Marks, I explained in my previous message that I have comments to make, but I hold back for the sake of a method that we both agreed on (order and completion).

Are you perhaps without an answer for my question?

 

[Rudometkin]

Which are?

Having discussions about a specific type of 'Free Will' and a specific type of Determinism.

 

[Renniks]

I keep hearing that God controls all things, but all I see in scripture is that he maintains all things. God doesn't have to control everyone's will to be sovereign. That's a false definition of what sovereign means.

 

[amadeus]

No. And I am talking about the Book of Revelations.
-------------------------------------------------------------

But I believe there are certain things God will do or not do depending upon human behaviour.

“Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus” (Philippians 4:6-7).

Never underestimate the power and privilege of prayer—you have the ear of the Creator of the universe.

Indeed in His creation of man, God limited Himself by giving men the choice to go their own way or God's Way. God created in men the ability to disobey Him. This is how God created evil. It was an indirect creation as I see it for until man walked that way, his own way, instead of the Way to which God points, there was no evil manifested... no sin.

Man has the dominion over himself to the extent that God allowed it, but God wants men to choose His Way... when other ways [other than the Way God directs] God cannot go against His own Word, so He effectively limited Himself when He gave by His Word man dominion over himself [Gen 1:26ff]. Man alone, for the period of time allotted to him, can remove that limitation God placed on Himself by surrendering his own will to God's perfect will, that is by seriously asking God for help. "Lead me Lord, because I cannot lead myself along the right pathway. I surrender to You!":

"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23

God clarified the Way and made available something they did not have and could not previously easily see... if at all.

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

 

[marks]

Marks, I explained in my previous message that I have comments to make, but I hold back for the sake of a method that we both agreed on (order and completion).

Are you perhaps without an answer for my question?

I'm seeing red flags in your discussion style.

You seem to me to be one with an hidden agenda, and I'm not really interested in dancing around it.

I've given some direct responses and asked some direct questions, but they don't appear to fit with what you have in mind, so you want to redirect back into your agenda, and that's not the sort of open discussion that appeals so much to me.

Sorry if I'm misunderstanding you, I'd be happy so see something to convince me otherwise.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I keep hearing that God controls all things, but all I see in scripture is that he maintains all things. God doesn't have to control everyone's will to be sovereign. That's a false definition of what sovereign means.

Of course it is!

That's why I like to say, God has sovereignly decreed, and no man can overturn it, that man shall make certain choices on his own.

Much love!

 

[Rudometkin]

I'm seeing red flags in your discussion style.

You seem to me to be one with an hidden agenda, and I'm not really interested in dancing around it.

I've given some direct responses and asked some direct questions, but they don't appear to fit with what you have in mind, so you want to redirect back into your agenda, and that's not the sort of open discussion that appeals so much to me.

Sorry if I'm misunderstanding you, I'd be happy so see something to convince me otherwise.

Much love!

Marks,

I don't want you dancing around anything. I want you to answer my question.

Order and completion.

 

[Renniks]

I'm seeing red flags in your discussion style.

You seem to me to be one with an hidden agenda, and I'm not really interested in dancing around it.

I've given some direct responses and asked some direct questions, but they don't appear to fit with what you have in mind, so you want to redirect back into your agenda, and that's not the sort of open discussion that appeals so much to me.

Sorry if I'm misunderstanding you, I'd be happy so see something to convince me otherwise.

Much love!

Calvinist alert, methinks! If it quacks like a duck, it's probably a Calvinist, lol.

 

[marks]

Marks,

I don't want you dancing around anything. I want you to answer my question.

Order and completion.

And what exactly is your question? So far, we're just dancing. Can you come to the point?

?

 

[marks]

Having discussions about a specific type of 'Free Will' and a specific type of Determinism.

Then be more specific, so we can have that discussion.

Much love!

 

[marks]

a specific type of Determinism.

You could begin by defining what this means to you.

Much love!

 

[Rudometkin]

You are a liar, if you imply I said that God can be a liar. God can't lie, therefore determinism is hogwash.
God is mad at his people often in the Torah. Why would he be angry at people for doing exactly what he programmed them to do? It makes the whole Bible meaningless and contradictory.

Where is the contradiction?

Of course you did not say that God can be a liar. What does that have to do with our discussion from earlier?

To suggest He can be a liar for programming and speaking certain things is to hint that He is not really incapable of lying.

I can just as easily say God can't lie, therefore 'Free Will' is hogwash.

He would be angry because He wants to be angry. I can just as easily say it doesn't make the whole Bible meaningless and contradictory.

Now what?

 

[Rudometkin]

You could begin by defining what this means to you.

Much love!

Already done Marks.

Definitions are provided in Post #1.

 

[Rudometkin]

Then be more specific, so we can have that discussion.

Much love!

We already began that discussion, Marks. I need your answer in order to continue it.

 

[marks]

Already done Marks.

Definitions are provided in Post #1.

OK.

Your idea of God's determinism in controlling man's thoughts is refuted in Ecclesiastes, as I've presented. Do you disagree with this? Or do you agree?

Robots and Will Worshipers

Much love!