Robots and Will Worshipers

[Prayer Warrior]

Now I see it in your original message.

You believe that God controls man's will in choosing to obey Him or not.

Is that correct?

No, I don't believe that God controls man's will in choosing to obey Him or not. I'll try to explain what I believe.

I believe that God gave man free will to choose whether to obey Him or not. Adam had perfect freedom to choose whether to obey God and not eat the fruit. He chose to disobey of his own free will. I believe that all people have the free will to choose whether to believe in God or not and whether to act morally.

At the same time, I believe that God is sovereign, which does NOT means that He controls everything. If we say that God controls everything, then this means that he causes people to do evil. Of course, God doesn't cause people to do evil things.

This explains what I'm trying to say:

The fact that God is sovereign essentially means that He has the power, wisdom, and authority to do anything He chooses within His creation. Whether or not He actually exerts that level of control in any given circumstance is actually a completely different question.

Source: What does it mean that God is sovereign? | GotQuestions.org
​

I don't believe that this is easily explained, kind of like the Trinity. To put this on a personal level, I just know that I'm not at the mercy of man's evils whims, but God protects me, and He will accomplish His good plan for my life no matter what because He has the ultimate authority and power.

​

 

[Hidden In Him]

God's Word, the Bible has foretold many things that are certain to happen. Can man stop any of them?

Not any more than an infant can stop a full grown man from doing whatever He wants in his own house, no. But the adult doesn't have to take away the child's freewill to get it done.

But without insulting the OP in any way, I was really just posting a few light-hearted comments. It's not a debate I spend much time on. If I'm a robot, I'm too busy working towards being the best darn robot I can be to waste much time debating it.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Sister, this position makes you both a will worshipper AND a robot. You're a will-worshipping robot.

I don't know if I could face God like that.

Hi, HiH, I have clarified my beliefs in my post above yours. ^^^

 

[Hidden In Him]

Hi, HiH, I have clarified my beliefs in my post above. ^^^

Please for Heaven's sakes don't take me seriously, LoL. You're one of the few rays of hope I have left in this world : )

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Please for Heaven's sakes don't take me seriously, LoL. You're one of the few rays of hope I have left in this world : )

LOL! Don't put your hope in me. You will end up hopeless!

 

[marks]

Yes.

Do you think that God gave man power that does not depend on God, so that man can use it to think for himself?

Does it matter what I think? Whatever God's thoughts that He's programmed into me, that's what I'll think, correct?

Am I breathing, or is God breathing me? Am I thinking originally, or am I running a program?

Ecclesiastes 7
2 It is better to go to the house of mourning, than to go to the house of feasting: for that is the end of all men; and the living will lay it to his heart.
3 Sorrow is better than laughter: for by the sadness of the countenance the heart is made better.

Some things are better, and recommended. Some things will have an impact upon us, sometimes improving us.

Why would something be recommended, IF God were actively controlling all we think and do? Because to the one who would rather party, and just have fun now, IF it were true that God were ordaining those thoughts, what is the purpose of a recommendation against them?

And by the sadness of the countenance the heart is made better. Choosing according to the recommendation puts one in a situation where they will be improved by those circumstances. Going to the funeral or wake, putting yourself in perspective with "end of life", taking it to heart, this is attributed with making our hearts better.

Your thoughts?


Much love!

 

[kcnalp]

Proverbs 16:4 (NKJV)
4 The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

 

[marks]

At the same time, I believe that God is sovereign, which does NOT means that He controls everything. If we say that God controls everything, then this means that he causes people to do evil. Of course, God doesn't cause people to do evil things.

Hi PW,

I've concluded that God has sovereignly decreed that man can choose certain things. For instance . . . you have not because you ask not.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Interesting, at least to me, this question is akin to asking whether we are just a movie or not.

 

[DNB]

Discuss support and implications of the two opposing doctrines regarding 'Free Will' and 'Determinism' below.

Free Will: Man has the power to think on his own apart from God.

Determinism: God controls all things.

Hi Rudometkin, I've often put it this way, just as a parent often knows their children better than the children know themselves, the parents create an environment that is designed to induce the children to act in a way that is in their best interest. The children have complete autonomy and free will, but it is the parents who are ultimately in control.
Similarly, due to immeasurable wisdom and omniscience of God, He has placed all men exactly where he wants them to be, precisely surrounded by people and other beings, circumstances, atmospheres and situations, that according to the individual and unique character of the person, will, without his cognizant volition, fulfill God's will while still retaining the individuals complete autonomy and self-determination. And this construct, is to the glory of God (nothing spectacular in being sovereign, when you have everyone hard-wired to do your will).

Authentic love must be free. We cannot fulfill God's ultimate command to love Him with all our hearts and lives, if such a disposition is coerced or manipulated, or not stemming from a full conviction.

 

[Rudometkin]

Does it matter what I think? Whatever God's thoughts that He's programmed into me, that's what I'll think, correct?

Am I breathing, or is God breathing me? Am I thinking originally, or am I running a program?

Ecclesiastes 7
2 It is better to go to the house of mourning, than to go to the house of feasting: for that is the end of all men; and the living will lay it to his heart.
3 Sorrow is better than laughter: for by the sadness of the countenance the heart is made better.

Some things are better, and recommended. Some things will have an impact upon us, sometimes improving us.

Why would something be recommended, IF God were actively controlling all we think and do? Because to the one who would rather party, and just have fun now, IF it were true that God were ordaining those thoughts, what is the purpose of a recommendation against them?

And by the sadness of the countenance the heart is made better. Choosing according to the recommendation puts one in a situation where they will be improved by those circumstances. Going to the funeral or wake, putting yourself in perspective with "end of life", taking it to heart, this is attributed with making our hearts better.

Your thoughts?

Much love!

Marks, what happened to order and completion?

My first and leading thought is that what entails past your first question is a side trail from our main discussion. Since I appreciate them, I began addressing all of your questions before realizing that I have desire to not walk down side trails, but instead to walk down our main pathway together. I'm curious of your position too.

I think you might have a specific issue with there being a lack of purpose for things if God controls everything, and if this is so, consider letting us discuss it in proper timing.

To put it generally, it does matter what you think, because judgement day is coming. Likewise and more relevant to our discussion, your answer does matter to me because I am interested in hearing it.

 

[Rudometkin]

Hi Rudometkin, I've often put it this way, just as a parent often knows their children better than the children know themselves, the parents create an environment that is designed to induce the children to act in a way that is in their best interest. The children have complete autonomy and free will, but it is the parents who are ultimately in control.
Similarly, due to immeasurable wisdom and omniscience of God, He has placed all men exactly where he wants them to be, precisely surrounded by people and other beings, circumstances, atmospheres and situations, that according to the individual and unique character of the person, will, without his cognizant volition, fulfill God's will while still retaining the individuals complete autonomy and self-determination. And this construct, is to the glory of God (nothing spectacular in being sovereign, when you have everyone hard-wired to do your will).

Authentic love must be free. We cannot fulfill God's ultimate command to love Him with all our hearts and lives, if such a disposition is coerced or manipulated, or not stemming from a full conviction.

Hi DNB, there is a lot for me to consider here.

I do intend on further addressing your post in the near future. In the meantime, I do want to ask you a question, perhaps you can chew on it for a bit before responding if you choose to do so, or you can steer me more into a direction towards your line of thinking.

You said:

- "nothing spectacular in being sovereign, when you have everyone hard-wired to do your will"

Was there nothing spectacular in God's creation of the earth? or did the earth have a free will to decline taking form?

 

[Truman]

God gave man a a free will.
You can do as you like.

You know, that joke is really bad so that means your sense of humor is...just like mine! Lol! The worse, the better. Have you heard this one? "Time flies like an arrow but fruit flies like a banana." Later, gator.

 

[Renniks]

Yes.

Do you think that God gave man power that does not depend on God, so that man can use it to think for himself?

Yes.

 

[Renniks]

Was there nothing spectacular in God's creation of the earth? or did the earth have a free will to decline taking form?

I suppose that depends on one's perspective. From our perspective as mere mortals, creation is pretty amazing. For a Being with no limits, it would seem to be pretty easy.
But just creating creatures that do exactly as God determines that they will do, not only seems easier for him, it seems to make all of the struggle with evil through the ages pointless.
Can God truly claim that we should do this or not do that if he has already determined what we actually do?

 

[DNB]

Hi DNB, there is a lot for me to consider here.

I do intend on further addressing your post in the near future. In the meantime, I do want to ask you a question, perhaps you can chew on it for a bit before responding if you choose to do so, or you can steer me more into a direction towards your line of thinking.

You said:

- "nothing spectacular in being sovereign, when you have everyone hard-wired to do your will"

Was there nothing spectacular in God's creation of the earth? or did the earth have a free will to decline taking form?

Sorry, when we speak of free will, are we not referring exclusively to beings created in the image of God (rhetorical)?
Sorry Rudometkin, I do not see any plausibility whatsoever in your question - ascribing free-will to inanimate objects?

Since man, in order to love God sincerely and uncoerced, fundamentally must have free-will. And, God, who is all-knowing, sovereign and righteous, will ultimately and invariably have his will for the universe and all that it contains, succeed. Therefore, there must be a harmony between these two intrinsic principles. It is much more impressive to see how God is able to incorporate both maxims in order to have his Word transpire as He so decreed, rather than denying man free will so that there is no resistance to His will.
The former scenario requires infinitely more wisdom and love, rather than the latter.

 

[Rudometkin]

I suppose that depends on one's perspective. From our perspective as mere mortals, creation is pretty amazing. For a Being with no limits, it would seem to be pretty easy.

But just creating creatures that do exactly as God determines that they will do, not only seems easier for him, it seems to make all of the struggle with evil through the ages pointless.

Does struggle for God between His creation make more sense than God effortlessly creating and controlling all things for a purpose?

Does it seem pointless to create and control for a purpose?

Can God truly claim that we should do this or not do that if he has already determined what we actually do?

Absolutely. He is the lawgiver.

 

[DNB]

it seems to make all of the struggle with evil through the ages pointless.

Precisely!

 

[Rudometkin]

No, I don't believe that God controls man's will in choosing to obey Him or not. I'll try to explain what I believe. I believe that God gave man free will to choose whether to obey Him or not.

Adam had perfect freedom to choose whether to obey God and not eat the fruit. He chose to disobey of his own free will. I believe that all people have the free will to choose whether to believe in God or not and whether to act morally.

Thanks for clarifying. If He does not control some of man's choices, then He does not control all things.

At the same time, I believe that God is sovereign, which does NOT means that He controls everything. If we say that God controls everything, then this means that he causes people to do evil. Of course, God doesn't cause people to do evil things.

If God doesn't cause people to do evil things, then who does?

Scripture to consider:

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Judges 14:4
But his father and his mother knew not that it was of the Lord, that he sought an occasion against the Philistines: for at that time the Philistines had dominion over Israel. (Samson's sin was of the Lord)

Genesis 50:20
But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

This explains what I'm trying to say:

The fact that God is sovereign essentially means that He has the power, wisdom, and authority to do anything He chooses within His creation. Whether or not He actually exerts that level of control in any given circumstance is actually a completely different question.

Source: What does it mean that God is sovereign? | GotQuestions.org

I don't believe that this is easily explained, kind of like the Trinity. To put this on a personal level, I just know that I'm not at the mercy of man's evils whims, but God protects me, and He will accomplish His good plan for my life no matter what because He has the ultimate authority and power.

I appreciate your effort in bringing clarity. To clarify myself, I am asking that 'completely different question', or one very similar to it.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Thanks for clarifying. If He does not control some of man's choices, then He does not control all things.

Right, I don't believe that God controls all things, but I do believe that He is sovereign, which I explained above.

So, sorry if I missed your question. I just kind of jumped into the discussion.