Proverbs 16:33 (NKJV)
33 The lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the LORD.
33 The lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the LORD.
Robots and Will Worshipers
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Sure we are, but not necessarily. When you say:
- "nothing spectacular in being sovereign, when you have everyone hard-wired to do your will"
Do you not mean that there is nothing spectacular in being sovereign when nothing is there with ability to deny your will?
If that is what you mean, then when God formed the earth, would it have not been spectacular unless the earth had the ability to refuse His will to form it?
Are you not following?
Are the children depending on the power of their parents to exist? If not, then the children certainly do have a sense of free will relative to their parents, and I grant that the parents would have a sense of control over their children.
Do you believe that both the children and the parents depend on God's power to exist?
If so, then the people cannot have free wills relative to God, and the analogy crumbles. He who provides existence determines the state of existence.
I appreciate you being in the conversation, even as you entered casually. I think there was no harm done, and we're all here discussing.
Yes, but that is not part of the equation, only one being that God created was endowed with His image. And it is only this being that God demands obedience, and thus, definitively must have free-will. God's concern is not the salvation of mountains and mosquitos, they are just part of the interface for the relationship between God and man. Yes, all inanimate objects are pre-programmed, and thus we expect complete compliance with God's will. Does that, according to my point, detract from God's wisdom - yes, for the sake of argument - but only if that was all there was to the story. But since man is the only part of the equation that matters, since we're talking about eternity, this is where my principle becomes relevant and imperative.
...and that state of existence is what, free will or not?
Are you limiting God's creative ability? In other words, can God not bestow free-will to a creature? If He can create, what are the limitations of his omnipotence? If God cannot allow man to have free-will for whatever intrinsic reason, then again, the institution of the Levitical Law was pointless, and decree to be obedient and 'holy as He is holy' was utterly futile and foolish. The death penalty for adultery, murder and breaking the Sabbath would be nothing but cruel and sadistic. And the command to love would be absolutely meaningless.
Does God have the ability to endow a being created in His image with free-will, or not?
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Triumph1300
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No. And I am talking about the Book of Revelations.
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But I believe there are certain things God will do or not do depending upon human behaviour.
“Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus” (Philippians 4:6-7).
Never underestimate the power and privilege of prayer—you have the ear of the Creator of the universe.
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Sabertooth
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"Free Will" is only in effect when a person has options. If such has no means to act on their choice, they have only preferences.
It is true that a preference is also an expression of free will, but not a effectual one.
If you have $100, there are a lot of different ways that you can spend it [free will].
If you have $0 (and nothing to sell), you have extremely minimal options.
God controls all of the big stuff and can limit our choices without violating are free will.
- He can allow the consequences of our bad decisions to take away all of our options.
- Conversely, He can bless His children, undeservedly, knowing that they will act favorably in the interests of His Kingdom [John 15:7-8].
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If this topic has to do with worshipping God.
Then people should worship God out of free will, because they want to.
And not because they think they have to.
Then people should worship God out of free will, because they want to.
And not because they think they have to.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 (NKJV)
13 ... God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
13 ... God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
Yes, God controls all things, yet he has given men and angels free will. So free will is not in conflict with the sovereignty of God (as some vainly imagine). We see free will in action in the third chapter of Genesis. And we also see the disastrous results of Adam and Eve exercising their free wills. Had they been programmed to obey God under any and all circumstances, we would not be where we are today.
DNB, were my questions not worthy of answering?
I can just as easily say that the Levitical Law was meaningful, and the decree to be obedient and 'holy as He is holy' was completely meaningful and amazing. The death penalty for adultery, murder and breaking the Sabbath would be meaningful and just, and the command to love would be absolutely meaningful and righteous.
So you do not consider taking away effectual free will as violating free will, is that correct?
Do you think that man's will depends on God's power to exist?
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Ok, if it works for you, but it doesn't make a lick of sense to me for God to claim to be upset with his people if they are only doing exactly what he determined for them to do. That actually makes God a liar.
That you think God can be a liar hints at the amount of reverence you have for Him.
What do you mean about God being upset? Perhaps if we define 'upset' and work from there then things might make sense for you.
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Sabertooth
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God doesn't take away anything. Our sin choices do. If you blow the aforementioned $100, you can't blame God for the subsequent loss of your options.
In a way, yes. After squandering his resources, God can add undeserved funds when it serves His purposes to do so.
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I've considered your position more. So that is, you do not consider limiting the freedom of the will to be a violation of the free will. Is that correct?
Considering the apparent free will of man, can that which exists by God's power be violated by God's power? Can that which exists by God's power exist in a way that God does not determine?
You believe He controls their free wills, is that correct?
If so, what are their wills free from?
Sabertooth
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I don't understand why you insist on placing that limitation at God's feet. Because of sin, WE limit our subsequent options.
God's being selective in His application of grace is not a violation of our beginning free will. Without it, we constantly paint ourselves into a corner. The end.
"For the wages of sin is death,
but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23 NKJV
That "free" gift has conditions to it. Namely, we surrender our will to Him.
Jesus said,
"For whoever desires to save his life will lose it,
but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it." Matthew 16:25 NKJV
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