The Eternal Security Heresy: A Comprehensive Refutation of OSAS

[Ferris Bueller]

If you just think about it there is more than one way to interpret this.

Jesus Christ spent every day of His human life getting to know His Father better. Paul did not have the same experience. Paul knew Christ and the Father as well as he was able to. It is not sensible to believe that Paul knew God as well as Christ knew His Father. This seems so obvious to me. And yet, people will invariably run to the book of Romans or Galatians to defend their favorite points of doctrine. I believe it is a lazy way of defending faith. I don't care if I am perceived as being anti-Pauline. It wouldn't be the 1st time and I definitely don't expect it to be the last.

Bible religion is multi-faceted and paradoxical as well as simple. There are many troubling or difficult passages to be dealt with, which most forum participants do by simply taking a side and claiming other texts which seem to contradict the side taken don't really mean what they say. I don't care to give an example. This can be found easily in nearly every thread. I don't like legwork. I know missionaries in Malaysia that have been in jail for spreading the Gospel. The inconveniences and annoyances of those who spend much of their time arguing with other Christians on the Internet are becoming strangely dimmer and dimmer to me.

You don't have to discard Paul to retain the simplicity of the truth. Agenda driven doctrines ruin the simplicity of the Bible. As long as you don't try to service the agenda of a pet doctrine the whole Bible is an evenly woven fabric of God's truth. Each part builds on the last part.

 

[BarneyFife]

As long as you don't try to service the agenda of a pet doctrine the whole Bible is an evenly woven fabric of God's truth.

Everyone does exactly this, and everyone says this but no one agrees. It is a Babylonian mess, or confusion, IOW.

 

[Heyzeus]

Paul definitely met Jesus. He had an encounter with Him on the Damascus road...and it has been said that he learned from Him for three years in the wilderness of Arabia.

3 years in Arabia ! never heard that one - think Paul might have mentioned something given half the NT is devoted to him but no such luck.

Paul doesn't know Jesus - doesn't know his life - doesn't know his teachings in any detail - and is not a member of the Church of Jerusalem.

 

[Heyzeus]

Paul definitely met Jesus. He had an encounter with Him on the Damascus road...and it has been said that he learned from Him for three years in the wilderness of Arabia.

I was thinking about how ridiculous this story is that someone made up.

So what you are claiming to believe is that Jesus - after death - came back ! - and he came back to Earth for 3 full year - and sat with Paul the whole time - instructing him.

Never managed to visit the disciples during this time -Just Paul.

Paul must have been really stupid for it to take Jesus 3 years to teach him. and come to think of it .. one would think a God might be able to work a little quicker ..

Funny Paul never mention's anything about this 3 years of Training under Jesus - and nor does Luke.

This story doesn't pass the giggle test - Don't be duped by such silly stories. Scripture tells us that Paul did not have his conversion until years after the death of Christ .. it also shows us that Paul did not know Jesus - as Paul can tell us nothing about the life of Jesus.

So - if you want to know about Jesus - and what Jesus had to say .. I suggest the synoptics and John - albeit John comes much later so better to start with the earlier scripture .. Especially Matt/Mark - as this is the closest you will get to the real Jesus..

 

[Renniks]

This story doesn't pass the giggle test - Don't be duped by such silly stories. Scripture tells us that Paul did not have his conversion until years after the death of Christ .. it also shows us that Paul did not know Jesus - as Paul can tell us nothing about the life of Jesus.

How many of us have actually met Jesus like Paul did on the Damascus road? He may have never met him in the flesh, but they certainly met.

 

[Heyzeus]

How many of us have actually met Jesus like Paul did on the Damascus road? He may have never met him in the flesh, but they certainly met.

Having Jesus make a brief visitation is one thing - The claim that Jesus spent 3 years tutoring Paul is a completely different claim..

 

[justbyfaith]

Being ready to be judged by Christ when he comes back is what is important. Once saved always saved is not.

It has a specific importance in that the helmet on our head is an important piece of the armor (see Ephesians 6:17, 1 Thessalonians 5:8).

Christ won't be looking for empty confessions of faith when he comes back. He'll be looking for the works that validate you as having faith in him and loving him.

We are saved by grace through faith apart from works (Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:5-6, Romans 11:5-6, Titus 3:5 (kjv)).

Paul doesn't know Jesus -

it also shows us that Paul did not know Jesus

Paul knows Jesus in the same way that any of us has a personal relationship with Jesus..."Christ in you, the hope of glory" (Colossians 1:27)....not to mention he was an apostle.

So - if you want to know about Jesus - and what Jesus had to say .. I suggest the synoptics and John

Yes; Jesus, in John, gives credence to Peter (John 16:13) and Peter gives credence to Paul (2 Peter 3:15-16) and Paul gives credence to all other scripture (2 Timothy 3:16).

The last of these verses tells us that all scripture is inspired by the Holy Ghost.

Personally, I believe that the Holy Ghost is Jesus (His Spirit).

So, if you want to know what Jesus has to say, just read anywhere in your Bible.

Having Jesus make a brief visitation is one thing - The claim that Jesus spent 3 years tutoring Paul is a completely different claim..

Galatians 1:17-18 is the scripture in question. I know it does not say that Paul specifically met with the risen Christ in those verses; but the question arises, Why did Paul spend the entirety of three years in the Arabian desert?

 

[Renniks]

Having Jesus make a brief visitation is one thing - The claim that Jesus spent 3 years tutoring Paul is a completely different claim..

Well Paul did claim to be taken up to heaven temporary.

"And I know that this man--whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows--was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell."

The vision took place fourteen years before the writing of 2 Corinthians, which was in late a.d. 55 or early a.d. 56, putting it sometime between Paul’s return to Tarsus from Jerusalem (Acts 9:30) and his commissioning by the Holy Spirit (Acts 13:1–3). Little is known about that period of Paul’s life except that during it he ministered in Syria and Cilicia (Gal. 1:21)

So there's that.

 

[Heyzeus]

Galatians 1:17-18 is the scripture in question. I know it does not say that Paul specifically met with the risen Christ in those verses; but the question arises, Why did Paul spend the entirety of three years in the Arabian desert?

He wanted to be a monk ? - lots of folks go away into isolation in the quest for spiritual enlightenment. I am sure Paul - having had one vision - was hoping for a return engagement .

Jesus did not spend 3 years in the Desert hanging out with Paul... If that were the case Paul would not say some of the dumb things that he said

 

[Heyzeus]

Well Paul did claim to be taken up to heaven temporary.

"And I know that this man--whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows--was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell."

The vision took place fourteen years before the writing of 2 Corinthians, which was in late a.d. 55 or early a.d. 56, putting it sometime between Paul’s return to Tarsus from Jerusalem (Acts 9:30) and his commissioning by the Holy Spirit (Acts 13:1–3). Little is known about that period of Paul’s life except that during it he ministered in Syria and Cilicia (Gal. 1:21)

So there's that.

That is not what the passage says ... says he knew a man who was taken up to the "Third Heaven" That does that mean .. what is the "Third Heaven".

In any case - this was not Paul - and certainly there is no claim of being trained by Jesus for 3 years. ?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Everyone does exactly this, and everyone says this but no one agrees. It is a Babylonian mess, or confusion, IOW.

I agree it is a mess. But it's only because of these crazy teachings that the church has invented. If we'd just let Christianity be what it is in the Bible we wouldn't be in this mess. Seems like the church got afraid of works and invented all these not so simple theologies to rationalize dead faith. You don't need a degree to understand the Bible. You need a degree to understand man's interpretation of the Bible.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

It has a specific importance in that the helmet on our head is an important piece of the armor (see Ephesians 6:17, 1 Thessalonians 5:8).

All you have to know is that you are saved. You don't have to know you are once saved always saved. Oh, and the Bible tells us how to know we are saved. It does not wander off into complicated once saved always saved teachings.

 

[justbyfaith]

He wanted to be a monk ?

I sincerely doubt that this would be the case. Paul himself wrote against the doctrines of asceticism in his epistle to the Colossians.

Jesus did not spend 3 years in the Desert hanging out with Paul... If that were the case Paul would not say some of the dumb things that he said

Paul said nothing that was "dumb"...but I'd be interested in knowing what, among the things that he said, you think are dumb.

what is the "Third Heaven".

The first heaven is the atmosphere; the second heaven is outer space; the third heaven is the place where God's throne is and where the holy angels dwell for the most part.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

We are saved by grace through faith apart from works (Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:5-6, Romans 11:5-6, Titus 3:5 (kjv)).

That doesn't change the fact that you are set aside to the right and saved from the lake of fire according to what you have done in this life. Faith "expressing itself in love" is what Jesus will use to determine who goes to the left and who goes to the right at the judgment. That's what the Bible says. Living faith saves you from destruction when Jesus comes back, not dead faith.

 

[justbyfaith]

I agree it is a mess. But it's only because of these crazy teachings that the church has invented. If we'd just let Christianity be what it is in the Bible we wouldn't be in this mess. Seems like the church got afraid of works and invented all these not so simple theologies. You don't need a degree to understand the Bible. You need a degree to understand man's interpretation of the Bible.

I agree that you don't need a degree to understand the Bible.

But I disagree with you in that I most certainly believe that sola fide is the teaching of the Bible.

All you have to know is that you are saved. You don't have to know you are once saved always saved. Oh, and the Bible tells us how to know we are saved. It does not wander off into complicated once saved always saved teachings.

If you know that you are saved, there are passages that tell us that we cannot lose our salvation; and to neglect them would be to neglect the whole counsel of God.

I don't see the doctrine of POTS as complicated. To me, it is very simple and straightforward.

 

[Taken]

3 years in Arabia ! never heard that one - think Paul might have mentioned something given half the NT is devoted to him but no such luck.

Paul doesn't know Jesus - doesn't know his life - doesn't know his teachings in any detail - and is not a member of the Church of Jerusalem.

Gal 1:
[14]
[15] But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
[16] To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
[17] Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
[18] Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

When Paul was called- he responded and was taught for 3 Years in Arabia, by the Spirit. NOT Flesh and Blood.
Prepared...Paul then began his missionary works.

Saul a Jewish Pharisee expert in the Law, AND Paul a Roman citizen...
A perfect choice God made to Teach and preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ; to Jews and Gentiles....Paul having the same amount Time of being a Student...as did the Disciples who walked for 3 years with Jesus.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[justbyfaith]

That doesn't change the fact that you are set aside to the right and saved from the lake of fire according to what you have done in this life. Faith "expressing itself in love" is what Jesus will use to determine who goes to the left and who goes to the right at the judgment. That's what the Bible says. Living faith saves you from destruction when Jesus comes back, not dead faith.

Can someone come to a living faith while on their deathbed, so that there are no subsequent works to show for their faith?

I believe that they can.

I also believe that the pressure to do good works in order to "save myself" is not conducive to doing any kind of work that could in any way be considered salvational. Such a work would be done out of selfishness and is therefore tainted and not worthy of obtaining entrance into the kingdom.

The only works that might be worthy of obtaining entrance into the kingdom are those works that are done out of a labour of love, knowing that we are saved and seeking to win the salvation of others.

If we know that we are saved, then we know that we do not have to do any of these works in order to save ourselves.

And therefore, the works that we do, while worthy of obtaining entrance into the kingdom, do not obtain such entrance; because entrance has already been obtained sola fide...through faith in Jesus and what He did for us on the Cross (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

 

[Renniks]

That is not what the passage says ... says he knew a man who was taken up to the "Third Heaven" That does that mean .. what is the "Third Heaven".

In any case - this was not Paul - and certainly there is no claim of being trained by Jesus for 3 years. ?

Most theologians believe paul is talking about himself there. I never said he was trained by Jesus for three years.

 

[Renniks]

And therefore, the works that we do, while worthy of obtaining entrance into the kingdom, do not obtain such entrance; because entrance has already been obtained sola fide...through faith in Jesus and what He did for us on the Cross

Agree, except that no works are worthy of gaining entrance to the kingdom. Only a perfect sacrifice for us makes us worthy.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I most certainly believe that sola fide is the teaching of the Bible.

You get justified by faith alone, but faith that is alone won't save you from the lake of fire. Because faith that is alone is not justifying faith. It is the kind of faith demons have.