Why Does God Allow The False Pre-trib Rapture Lie?

[Raccoon1010]

Sorry, but your words above betray you; that you actually don't know what God's Word teaches about a 'rapture'. If you did know, you wouldn't wrongly infer what I teach is something different than God's written Word! But just by claiming I do, tells me you probably hold to men's false pre-trib rapture theory.

Agreement of terms needed first:
I use the KJV translator's terminology of Apostle Paul's teaching about a rapture. The word 'rapture' itself is NOT in God's Word, not in the manuscripts, nor in the KJV translation. The KJV, which I use, says "caught up" for the Greek word 'harpazo' (to seize). The word rapture comes from a Latin translation of that Greek word 'harpazo'.

You call it a 'rapture', I call it being "caught up" like the KJV says.

What the KJV also says, from the Greek, is that Christ's saints still alive on earth when He comes will be "caught up" to the "air" (aer - Greek for breath), when Jesus appears coming in the clouds on His way back to earth. Paul also said there that Jesus will bring the 'asleep' saints with Him when He comes. That means they are resurrected and they return with Him in the clouds. But those us still alive are "caught up" to them, and we all become one group in Christ, with Him on His way to Jerusalem.

The part about 'where' He is going to return to with His Church isn't given by Apostle Paul in that 1 Thessalonians 4 Chapter. But it is... given in the Zechariah 14 Chapter in the Old Testament. Where Jesus returns to on earth is also given in the Acts 1 Chapter where His disciples witnessed His ascending to The Father while upon the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem.

I do not deny any of that per the 1 Thessalonians 4, and Acts 1, and Zechariah 14 Scriptures.

Does that sound like I deny the 1 Thessalonians 4 events?

I was referring to the use of the term "flood" in Matthew 24:36-44 as a destruction or tribulation, and them that are caught up and taken is clear. You don't really sound coherent here. But sure I suppose tribulation could be refereed in any of the destructiveness of the Book of Revelation so you could be correct. I just wouldn't be the guy telling all the pre-tribs they're wrong as it is clearly only an opinion in your case.

 

[Trekson]

You won't be able to deny what I showed when it happens, for all the world will know when God's two witnesses appear in Jerusalem and prophesy there for 1260 days during the time when the false Messiah comes to power there.

Rev 11:7-9
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
KJV

Just how will those nations 'see' the dead bodies of God's two witnesses laid dead in the street of Jerusalem? It's called satellite technology, showing that coming event couldn't be possible until these latter days we are in.


Matt 16:1-3
16:1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired Him that He would shew them a sign from heaven.
2 He answered and said unto them, "When it is evening, ye say, 'It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.'
3 And in the morning, 'It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring.' O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?"
KJV

Totally unrelated to our conversation but I agree w/ what you wrote except for the claim the 1260 days must be the end of the week.

 

[Davy]

I was referring to the use of the term "flood" in Matthew 24:36-44 as a destruction or tribulation, and them that are caught up and taken is clear. You don't really sound coherent here. But sure I suppose tribulation could be refereed in any of the destructiveness of the Book of Revelation so you could be correct. I just wouldn't be the guy telling all the pre-tribs they're wrong as it is clearly only an opinion in your case.

Well, let's go back and look at what you actually did... say to me...

You said:
"There's some evidence of rapture in the bible from what I can tell. Matthew 24:36-44.

Not sure why you're teaching different. I'm not really that into pretrib rapture, but I can't argue it given Matthew 24:36-44 either."


Whether or not you are aware, your words above in bold wrongly infer that I'm not teaching a rapture. Your final statement above is assuming a 'pretrib rapture' is what The Bible teaches, which is NOT true! There's the difference. Your statement is a clever mask for a trap statement like, "are you still beating your wife?"

Furthermore, the Matthew 24:36-44 Scripture is NOT teaching a 'pretrib rapture'. Jesus is teaching about the day of His 2nd coming for His servants, and He gives the season for that return with a SIGN there that goes against any idea of a 'pretrib' timing. Did you recognize that SIGN He gave in those verses you mention???

 

[Davy]

Totally unrelated to our conversation but I agree w/ what you wrote except for the claim the 1260 days must be the end of the week.

I've given enough evidence to you directly from God's Word. Sorry, I haven't any more time for your games.

 

[Raccoon1010]

Well, let's go back and look at what you actually did... say to me...

You said:
"There's some evidence of rapture in the bible from what I can tell. Matthew 24:36-44.

Not sure why you're teaching different. I'm not really that into pretrib rapture, but I can't argue it given Matthew 24:36-44 either."


Whether or not you are aware, your words above in bold wrongly infer that I'm not teaching a rapture. Your final statement above is assuming a 'pretrib rapture' is what The Bible teaches, which is NOT true! There's the difference. Your statement is a clever mask for a trap statement like, "are you still beating your wife?"

Furthermore, the Matthew 24:36-44 Scripture is NOT teaching a 'pretrib rapture'. Jesus is teaching about the day of His 2nd coming for His servants, and He gives the season for that return with a SIGN there that goes against any idea of a 'pretrib' timing. Did you recognize that SIGN He gave in those verses you mention???

So where is the trib that pretrib rapture people speak of in the bible?

 

[Davy]

So where is the trib that pretrib rapture people speak of in the bible?

The pretrib school teaches that Jesus comes to rapture His Church prior... to the start of the "great tribulation" He taught, prior to the coming of the final Antichrist, and just prior to the setting up of the "abomination of desolation" idol in Jerusalem.

What The Bible actually teaches though is that Lord Jesus comes to rapture (I say 'gather' like the KJV) His Church AFTER... the tribulation, like He said in the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 examples.

So the matter with a pre-trib rapture being false is about its TIMING.

Why would TIMING of Christ's return be important for us, Christ's Church?

It's because a spurious-Messiah is to appear in Jerusalem first and cause the great tribulation, working great signs and wonders in Jerusalem to deceive the whole world into thinking he is God, and worshiping him as God. Thus TIMING is very... important.

 

[Raccoon1010]

The pretrib school teaches that Jesus comes to rapture His Church prior... to the start of the "great tribulation" He taught, prior to the coming of the final Antichrist, and just prior to the setting up of the "abomination of desolation" idol in Jerusalem.

What The Bible actually teaches though is that Lord Jesus comes to rapture (I say 'gather' like the KJV) His Church AFTER... the tribulation, like He said in the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 examples.

So the matter with a pre-trib rapture being false is about it's TIMING.

Why would TIMING of Christ's return be important for us, Christ's Church?

It's because a spurious-Messiah is to appear in Jerusalem first and cause the great tribulation, working great signs and wonders in Jerusalem to deceive the whole world into thinking he is God, and worshiping him as God. Thus TIMING is very... important.

Thanks, I see your point then.

 

[farouk]

I am afraid that the title of the thread seems to read like a variation of "When did you stop beating your wife?"

1 Thessalonians 4.16-18

 

[marksman]

Whether you are pre, post or A, it will make not a scrap of difference to your salvation except in the way it will work itself out. If you are pre and it happens to be post, you are going to be a bit surprised that you have a few more years to cope with. If you are post and it turns out to be Pre, you will be a bit surprised that it wraps up earlier than you expected. If you are A, whatever happens, happens so no surprises.

Being a bit of a coward, I hope it is going to be Pre then that will mean I will have a few more years to play my harp in heaven. That will be remarkable if that happens because I can't play the harp now. But I am not going to limit what God can do in heaven so if you hear a harp playing badly it will probably be me.

I do know one thing that will happen and that is I will get to meet all those little innocent babies that were murdered in the womb by uncaring adults and the other thing I know is that I won't meet those who made a business of killing them.

 

[Josho]

Whether you are pre, post or A, it will make not a scrap of difference to your salvation except in the way it will work itself out. If you are pre and it happens to be post, you are going to be a bit surprised that you have a few more years to cope with. If you are post and it turns out to be Pre, you will be a bit surprised that it wraps up earlier than you expected. If you are A, whatever happens, happens so no surprises.

Being a bit of a coward, I hope it is going to be Pre then that will mean I will have a few more years to play my harp in heaven. That will be remarkable if that happens because I can't play the harp now. But I am not going to limit what God can do in heaven so if you hear a harp playing badly it will probably be me.

I do know one thing that will happen and that is I will get to meet all those little innocent babies that were murdered in the womb by uncaring adults and the other thing I know is that I won't meet those who made a business of killing them.

Whether pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib has anyone got it 100% right?

Anyway you're right it has nothing to do with anyone's salvation.

 

[Davy]

I am afraid that the title of the thread seems to read like a variation of "When did you stop beating your wife?"

1 Thessalonians 4.16-18

Those who disregard Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-29 ought to just put their Bible on a shelf, since they only believe what men tells them to believe anyway.

 

[Davy]

Whether you are pre, post or A, it will make not a scrap of difference to your salvation except in the way it will work itself out. If you are pre and it happens to be post, you are going to be a bit surprised that you have a few more years to cope with. If you are post and it turns out to be Pre, you will be a bit surprised that it wraps up earlier than you expected. If you are A, whatever happens, happens so no surprises.

Being a bit of a coward, I hope it is going to be Pre then that will mean I will have a few more years to play my harp in heaven. That will be remarkable if that happens because I can't play the harp now. But I am not going to limit what God can do in heaven so if you hear a harp playing badly it will probably be me.

I do know one thing that will happen and that is I will get to meet all those little innocent babies that were murdered in the womb by uncaring adults and the other thing I know is that I won't meet those who made a business of killing them.

In other words, it's better to not heed our Lord Jesus and His Apostle's warnings about not being deceived by the coming pseudo-Christ, prior to Jesus' return???

If those think this is too hard to understand from God's Word, and would rather try to let some organization of men try to save them, then our Heavenly Father and His Son will definitely allow those to be deceived. The only ones Jesus is not going to shut the door on when He returns is those who remained faithful waiting on His return.

 

[Davy]

Whether pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib has anyone got it 100% right?

Anyway you're right it has nothing to do with anyone's salvation.

It can only be ONE WAY per God's Word, because He is not the author of confusion. The devil is the author of confusion, so a faithful servant in Christ ought to be able to figure out that what God's Word says is how to recognize those other doctrines as false.

Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 is where Lord Jesus was emphatic that His coming to gather His Church is AFTER... the tribulation. Either one believes Him, or they don't.

So someone who refuses to believe what He said there, they show they would rather listen to men instead of Lord Jesus.

 

[Josho]

@Davy you can ask 50 Christians and you can end up with 10 different answers in what order and when eschatlogical events happen and take place.

Whose right, whose wrong? Only God knows.

But we know for certain that all the prophesied end time events will take place someday. We know all Biblical prophecy will be fulfilled no matter when or what order they happen in.

 

[Davy]

@Davy you can ask 50 Christians and you can end up with 10 different answers in what order and when eschatlogical events happen and take place.

Whose right, whose wrong? Only God knows.

But we know for certain that all the prophesied end time events will take place someday. We know all Biblical prophecy will be fulfilled no matter when or what order they happen in.

JESUS CHRIST in His Word is RIGHT! One who relies on what HE said in HIS WORD will NOT be misled.

The problem is with how the majority don't read and study their Bible for themselves. What Jesus said when He returns to gather His saints in the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scriptures is plain, direct, and simple to read. So all I'm hearing from you about this are just excuses to keep listening to other things instead. Why not heed what Jesus said in His Word, and stay in the simplicity of the Scripture?

 

[marksman]

In other words, it's better to not heed our Lord Jesus and His Apostle's warnings about not being deceived by the coming pseudo-Christ, prior to Jesus' return???

If those think this is too hard to understand from God's Word, and would rather try to let some organization of men try to save them, then our Heavenly Father and His Son will definitely allow those to be deceived. The only ones Jesus is not going to shut the door on when He returns is those who remained faithful waiting on His return.

Thankyou for your POV. Not very helpful I must say in the shape of things to come but hey we have plenty of time to sort out the pre, post and A.

 

[marksman]

Whether pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib has anyone got it 100% right?

Anyway you're right it has nothing to do with anyone's salvation.

I sometimes think that the theology of it is more of a tribulation than the actual event.

 

[marksman]

In other words, it's better to not heed our Lord Jesus and His Apostle's warnings about not being deceived by the coming pseudo-Christ, prior to Jesus' return???

If those think this is too hard to understand from God's Word, and would rather try to let some organization of men try to save them, then our Heavenly Father and His Son will definitely allow those to be deceived. The only ones Jesus is not going to shut the door on when He returns is those who remained faithful waiting on His return.

What is that verse that says if it was possible to deceive the elect which I assume means that it is not possible?

 

[marksman]

It can only be ONE WAY per God's Word, because He is not the author of confusion. The devil is the author of confusion, so a faithful servant in Christ ought to be able to figure out that what God's Word says is how to recognize those other doctrines as false.

Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 is where Lord Jesus was emphatic that His coming to gather His Church is AFTER... the tribulation. Either one believes Him, or they don't.

So someone who refuses to believe what He said there, they show they would rather listen to men instead of Lord Jesus.

Damn. I am not going to have more time to practice my harp playing in heaven.

 

[Cristo Rei]

So these are the three main tribulation beliefs in Christianity...

Im not claiming to know which one it is or how it will happen... I am surprised at how certain some people are of one or the other...

Im guessing there is supporting scripture for all of them... Which view is most popular?