John Darby

[Davy]

seems like an important passage as connected to ‘burying the dead bones’ And the ‘Thus ye shall be filled at my table’

...you say ‘just a figure is speech.’ Which parts...the table? The fowls of heaven and beast of the field? Or The sacrifice ‘which I have sacrificed for you’ which part is a figure of speech?

The idea of the fowls and beasts being 'drunken' by that coming feast on the dead. That's an expression our Heavenly Father is using to emphasize His point of that destruction He is going to do.

What happens with a dead carcase laying out in a field that is left? God created certain creatures to cleanse the earth, they come and eat it up. Haven't you ever see a vulture on the road feasting on some road kill? How could you not easily understand this? Do you stay in a crowded city all the time and never get out to the country?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

The idea of the fowls and beasts being 'drunken' by that coming feast on the dead. That's an expression our Heavenly Father is using to emphasize His point of that destruction He is going to do.

What happens with a dead carcase laying out in a field that is left? God created certain creatures to cleanse the earth, they come and eat it up. Haven't you ever see a vulture on the road feasting on some road kill? How could you not easily understand this? Do you stay in a crowded city all the time and never get out to the country?

Okay then we agree to disagree. Jeremiah 15:3 And I will appoint over them four kinds, saith the Lord : the sword to slay, and the dogs to tear, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the earth, to devour and destroy.
...even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from the masters table.

Ezekiel 34:16 I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment.

only a perspective but considering the Lord’s Supper, the breaking of bread, His blood of the New Testament ...by the coming to, gathering at the table God ‘seeks what was lost’ ‘brings again that which was driven away’ ‘binds up that which is broken’ ‘gives strength to the sick’ but there is also ‘I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment.’ (1 Corinthians 11:31)What does He feed them? He said He would judge between the fat cattle and the lean cattle...one hungry, another drunken (imo) ‘I will feed them with judgement’ to the weak they are made strong, to the sick they are healed, to the lost they are found, those driven away return...but 1 Corinthians 11:29-30 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. [30] For this cause many are weak (without strength) and sickly among you, and many sleep.


1 Corinthians 11:17-21 Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. [18] For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. [19] For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. [20] When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper. [21] For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.


Ezekiel 34:16 I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment. Acts 27:33-34 And while the day was coming on, Paul besought them all to take meat, saying, This day is the fourteenth day that ye have tarried and continued fasting, having taken nothing. [34] Wherefore I pray you to take some meat: for this is for your health: for there shall not an hair fall from the head of any of you.

Acts 27:35 And when he had thus spoken, he took bread, and gave thanks to God in presence of them all: and when he had broken it, he began to eat.
1 Corinthians 11:26-27 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. [27] Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
Yet Paul told them in the breaking of bread: take eat...for this is for your health: for there shall not an hair fall from the head of any of you.

 

[farouk]

Okay then we agree to disagree. Jeremiah 15:3 And I will appoint over them four kinds, saith the Lord : the sword to slay, and the dogs to tear, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the earth, to devour and destroy.
...even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from the masters table.

Ezekiel 34:16 I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment.

only a perspective but considering the Lord’s Supper, the breaking of bread, His blood of the New Testament ...by the coming to, gathering at the table God ‘seeks what was lost’ ‘brings again that which was driven away’ ‘binds up that which is broken’ ‘gives strength to the sick’ but there is also ‘I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment.’ What does He feed them? He said He would judge between the fat cattle and the lean cattle...one hungry, another drunken (imo) ‘I will feed them with judgement’ to the weak they are made strong, to the sick they are healed, to the lost they are found, those driven away return...but 1 Corinthians 11:29-30 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. [30] For this cause many are weak (without strength) and sickly among you, and many sleep.


1 Corinthians 11:17-21 Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. [18] For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. [19] For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. [20] When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper. [21] For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.


Ezekiel 34:16 I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment. Acts 27:33-34 And while the day was coming on, Paul besought them all to take meat, saying, This day is the fourteenth day that ye have tarried and continued fasting, having taken nothing. [34] Wherefore I pray you to take some meat: for this is for your health: for there shall not an hair fall from the head of any of you.

Acts 27:35 And when he had thus spoken, he took bread, and gave thanks to God in presence of them all: and when he had broken it, he began to eat.
1 Corinthians 11:26-27 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. [27] Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
Yet Paul told them in the breaking of bread: take eat...for this is for your health: for there shall not an hair fall from the head of any of you.

@VictoryinJesus It's good to receive the truths underlying the Lord's Supper; merely ingesting the physical emblems will not do this.

 

[Naomi25]

There is a similar angst (imo)between manifest and not yet manifested. See what you spoke of in 2 Corinthians 6:7-10 By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left, [8] By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true; [9] As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed; [10] As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.

So sorry it’s taken me so long to get back to you. I sort of had to drop everything else and focus on the family business. Probably still do for a while, so forgive me if I’m patchy.
But yes, I do think “manifest/not yet manifested” would be just as suitable a way to state it!

 

[Naomi25]

not disagreeing. Only struggle with “While having the Spirit within us and guiding us and doing many great things fulfills many promises, it does not fulfill them all,...” maybe it is dependent upon perspective? So much importance placed on what we perceive. (Not meaning you, but in my own head where sometimes there has been a change in perspective). So much so, every day it is a matter of perspective. Waking up ‘blah’ and disappointed and depleted but when the perspective changes...the ‘blah’ leaves.

I don’t doubt that perspective has an incredible difference on how one perceives both life and our growth in God. I expect that every day of our lives will (or should) be spent discovering new wonders in the Spirit: “that we may be filled with all the fullness of God” (Eph 3:19b)

However, my point is that regardless of how mature we become in our faith, and no matter how much we may do, see, achieve and experience in and by the Spirit, the promises of a perfectly sinless, death free, sorrow less existence only come after Christ returns and renewes all things...us included.

Philippians 4:7-8 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. [8] Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

Titus 1:11-15 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. [12] One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. [13] This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; [14] Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth. [15] Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

(Imo) speaks of perspective. ‘Unto the pure all things are pure’ unto them that are defiled and unbelieving ‘is nothing pure’. As maybe also are the promises. 2 Corinthians 1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Let me ask you this: the Apostle Paul, who performed many miracles in the name of Christ. Who Christ appeared to personally to teach him of the gospel. Who was, incredibly, taken (by vision or in person) to heaven to witness things. By every possibly standard, we would say that this man, fully devoted to one thing and one thing only: Jesus and declaring him Lord...had his “perspective” tuned correctly. That he, above all others had embraced the Spirit within him and was practiced in listening and obeying and following.
And yet, Paul himself still calls himself the “chief of sinners”. Paul himself knew that sin still dwelt within him and he himself taught that corruption would exist in this world until Christ’s return. This of course does not mean we don’t strive to be pure, to be worthy. Goodness no! But “this age” is what it is, and only one man has ever been perfect or defeated death in this age. The rest of us wait for the one to come.

 

[Davy]

Okay then we agree to disagree. Jeremiah 15:3 And I will appoint over them four kinds, saith the Lord : the sword to slay, and the dogs to tear, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the earth, to devour and destroy.
...even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from the masters table.

Ezekiel 34:16 I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment.

only a perspective but considering the Lord’s Supper, the breaking of bread, His blood of the New Testament ...by the coming to, gathering at the table God ‘seeks what was lost’ ‘brings again that which was driven away’ ‘binds up that which is broken’ ‘gives strength to the sick’ but there is also ‘I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment.’ (1 Corinthians 11:31)What does He feed them? He said He would judge between the fat cattle and the lean cattle...one hungry, another drunken (imo) ‘I will feed them with judgement’ to the weak they are made strong, to the sick they are healed, to the lost they are found, those driven away return...but 1 Corinthians 11:29-30 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. [30] For this cause many are weak (without strength) and sickly among you, and many sleep.


1 Corinthians 11:17-21 Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. [18] For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. [19] For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. [20] When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper. [21] For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.


Ezekiel 34:16 I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment. Acts 27:33-34 And while the day was coming on, Paul besought them all to take meat, saying, This day is the fourteenth day that ye have tarried and continued fasting, having taken nothing. [34] Wherefore I pray you to take some meat: for this is for your health: for there shall not an hair fall from the head of any of you.

Acts 27:35 And when he had thus spoken, he took bread, and gave thanks to God in presence of them all: and when he had broken it, he began to eat.
1 Corinthians 11:26-27 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. [27] Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
Yet Paul told them in the breaking of bread: take eat...for this is for your health: for there shall not an hair fall from the head of any of you.

You are 'trying' to apply a lot of New Testament scripture to that coming day of destruction upon the wicked by God's hand that He said He will do, per Ezekiel 38 & 39. That destruction is not for those who believe on Him and His Son, those who seek Him. It is for His enemies that will try to come upon His children on earth on the last day to destroy. You think He won't protect His children on that day? The coming of Christ shown in Revelation 19 is about His coming with His Army to do battle against His enemies. Do you really think that is not going to happen as written?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

And yet, Paul himself still calls himself the “chief of sinners”. Paul himself knew that sin still dwelt within him and he himself taught that corruption would exist in this world until Christ’s return.

yet Paul also knew Christ dwelt in Him and Christ was stronger than he who is in the world. Just an opinion but by admission of “chief of sinners” that finger pointed speaking vanity had been removed from the midst by Christ who said ‘I am in the midst.’ As in the OT Isaiah 58:9-12 Then shalt thou call, and the Lord shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity; [10] And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday: [11] And the Lord shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not. [12] And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.

Again, only an opinion but Paul is of ‘and they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste’ as 1 Corinthians 3:10-11 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. [11] For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

As Paul also was (is)of John 7:37-38 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. [38] He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not.)

‘chief of sinners’
2 Corinthians 11 ‘Was it a sin for me to lower myself in order to elevate you.’

James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

Makes me consider how much time has been spent in attempts to elevate myself and lower others. That is what the above means to me...thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity;

Instead ‘I am in the midst’ and Matthew 11:28-30 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. [29] Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. [30] For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Paul said He preached grace and mercy because necessity had been laid upon him ‘woe’ unto Paul if he didn’t preach Christ. To me that says without mercy, without grace Paul would be a cast away...necessity in his ‘chief of sinners’

 

[VictoryinJesus]

So sorry it’s taken me so long to get back to you. I sort of had to drop everything else and focus on the family business. Probably still do for a while, so forgive me if I’m patchy.
But yes, I do think “manifest/not yet manifested” would be just as suitable a way to state it!

Understood. Still the whatsoever is pure, think on these things. With unto the pure all things are pure but to the unclean there is nothing pure...remains in my mind.

Along With Romans 8:28-31 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. [29] For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed (not conformed to this the world but transformed by the renewing of your mind) to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. [30] Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. [31] What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

consider that for a moment the ‘all things work(together) for good’ and How fast the pointed finger speaking vanity can move in and set up camp there. Easy to get lofty ideas or puffed up when reading ‘for all things are for your sakes’ chosen and called to be conform not to the world but transformed by the renewing (renewing sounds like ‘Behold, I make all things new)of your mind 2 Corinthians 4:15-18, ...all things work together for the good
...it is the all things ‘work together’ that stands out to me. 1 Corinthians 3:3-9 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? [4] For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? [5] Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? [6] I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. [7] So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. [8] Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: (work together)and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. [9] For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

Could say the ministration of condemnation and the ministration of righteousness work together for the good (Corinthians 3:9) proving what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. God giving the increase.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

However, my point is that regardless of how mature we become in our faith, and no matter how much we may do, see, achieve and experience in and by the Spirit, the promises of a perfectly sinless, death free, sorrow less existence only come after Christ returns and renewes all things...us included.

there is that ‘renew’ in renews all things. I don’t know but only He said ‘be transformed by the renewal of the mind’ ...does the ‘renewing of the mind’ and ‘we have the mind of Christ’ have no part at all in ‘Behold, I make all things new’ reconciling all things unto Christ?

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

‘neither sorrow, nor crying’ sighing flees away...Are woes a cry? Are woes are past... lamentations is full of sorrow and cries and sighing. For example Lamentations 3:39-50 Thou hast made us as the offscouring and refuse in the midst of the people. [46] All our enemies have opened their mouths against us. [47] Fear and a snare is come upon us, desolation and destruction. [48] Mine eye runneth down with rivers of water for the destruction of the daughter of my people. [49] Mine eye trickleth down, and ceaseth not, without any intermission, [50] Till the Lord look down, and behold from heaven.
...covered with a cloud that our prayers could not pass through. “Mine eye trickle the dow, and ceased not
^until the Lord looked down, and behold from heaven.
Paul spoke of “woe” unto me if I preach not Christ. He also said: forgetting those things which are past, he did this one thing always reaching forth ...in not returning to what was “past” but reaching forth unto Christ.

Revelation 9:12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.

Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

 

[Keraz]

There seems to be a lot of confusion here regarding what will happen next and the sequence of events leading up to the Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign.
Revelation does give the sequence, we have had the first five Seals; all the wars, famines, plagues and the millions of Christian martyrs. It is obvious that the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, the reset of our civilization is next.
As the Prophets say: Wait for the Day.....

 

[VictoryinJesus]

There seems to be a lot of confusion here regarding what will happen next and the sequence of events leading up to the Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign.
Revelation does give the sequence, we have had the first five Seals; all the wars, famines, plagues and the millions of Christian martyrs. It is obvious that the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, the reset of our civilization is next.
As the Prophets say: Wait for the Day.....

Revelation 6:12-13 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; [13] And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

What kind of damage do stars make when hitting the earth?

 

[Keraz]

Revelation 6:12-13 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; [13] And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

What kind of damage do stars make when hitting the earth?

They will not be actual stars. That interpretation is impossible for many reasons.
What they will be is our satellites. It has been shown that pressure from sun emitted particles does cause orbiting satellites to lose altitude and eventually crash back to earth.
That the Lord will use a Coronal Mass Ejection to fulfil all the graphic prophesies about His terrible Day of fiery wrath, is certain from how that is the only way all the prophesies can be fulfilled.
Plus it will be viewed by secular peoples as a natural disaster and they will continue to deny God.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

They will not be actual stars. That interpretation is impossible for many reasons.

Agree.

What they will be is our satellites. It has been shown that pressure from sun emitted particles does cause orbiting satellites to lose altitude and eventually crash back to earth.
That the Lord will use a Coronal Mass Ejection to fulfil all the graphic prophesies about His terrible Day of fiery wrath, is certain from how that is the only way all the prophesies can be fulfilled.

Wadr that is speculation. If they are not actual stars then why have to find something (like satellites) to force it to fit. Problem is He speaks of the stars in the OT. Do satellites give light? He set the stars in heaven ... for lights? Why a third of the stars in Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Does that mean a third of the satellites?
Have you ever paid attention to ‘come to pass’ in His word? With all that is going on in the world right now and all the prophecies being made out there. Predictions that do not come to pass, not like Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass ; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Matthew 21:20-22 And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away! [21] Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done(come to pass. they shall not take of thee a stone for a corner, nor a stone for foundations;...Jeremiah 51:26) And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

Revelation 8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

 

[Keraz]

We shall soon see, ViJ.
Your reply is a mish-mash of scriptures that bear no relevance to the prophecies about the Lord's Day of fiery wrath.
This is what will happen:
Isaiah 28:2 The Lord will beat down violently upon the earth, as a destroying tempest.

Revelation 6:13 The starry host will fall to the earth, like fruit blown of a tree in a gale.

Isaiah 34:4 The host of the heavens will fall like ripe fruit.

 

[Naomi25]

yet Paul also knew Christ dwelt in Him and Christ was stronger than he who is in the world. Just an opinion but by admission of “chief of sinners” that finger pointed speaking vanity had been removed from the midst by Christ who said ‘I am in the midst.’

Two things in reference to these thoughts: while Paul did indeed know that "he who is in us, is greater than he who is in the world"...we still see Paul place the future hope of resurrection and perfection in just that...the future. For example:

For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. -Romans 8:14–23

We see a few things here...that having the Spirit is our adoption into the family and promises of God, through Christ...even though, like Christ, we must expect hardships. However, the hardships of this present age and life are inconsequential compared with what shall be revealed...when? Paul links what shall be with the renewal of both earth and sons of God...that's us. So...he's teaching us that at some future point both the sons of God and the whole of creation, both of which is currently subjected to futility and bondage to a present and sinful age, will be 'set free from corruption'....and we have the Spirit within us as promise and guarantee of this future. (Ephesians 1:13–14 - In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory)

The second thing I feel I need to mention is your reference to 'in your midst'. We see Christ say this in Luke 17:20–21:

Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”

So, the reference is in regard to the presence of the Kingdom of God. Which, in a very real way IS among us because of the Holy Spirit's presence within our lives. But...I feel when Paul labels himself the 'chief of sinners' he's not pointing back to this reference of the kingdom, either because of a specific sin in his or other peoples lives and how Christ or the Spirit can remove it.
Indeed, Paul is speaking about mercy and the gospel proclamation. And how Christ came into the world to save sinner...of whom he, Paul, is the foremost. He doesn't say "was" the foremost. Even though he must have years early repented thoroughly of the sins he committed while still Saul, he still counted himself 'foremost of sinners'.

I honestly cannot speak for any other Christian, only for myself. But...in my experience, the more you grow in Christ, the more you realize how wretched you are. How in need of grace you are. I do not think there will ever come a time where I look up an say "man, I am SO close on this"...'this' being my own righteousness.

So...while the Kingdom of God has come, will continue to come, and will come at Christ's coming in a more complete and fulfilled way, I do think sin, even in his followers, will be a thing we must admittedly struggle against.

As in the OT Isaiah 58:9-12 Then shalt thou call, and the Lord shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity; [10] And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday: [11] And the Lord shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not. [12] And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.

Again, only an opinion but Paul is of ‘and they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste’ as 1 Corinthians 3:10-11 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. [11] For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

As Paul also was (is)of John 7:37-38 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. [38] He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not.)

‘chief of sinners’
2 Corinthians 11 ‘Was it a sin for me to lower myself in order to elevate you.’

James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

Makes me consider how much time has been spent in attempts to elevate myself and lower others. That is what the above means to me...thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity;

Instead ‘I am in the midst’ and Matthew 11:28-30 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. [29] Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. [30] For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Paul said He preached grace and mercy because necessity had been laid upon him ‘woe’ unto Paul if he didn’t preach Christ. To me that says without mercy, without grace Paul would be a cast away...necessity in his ‘chief of sinners’

I think we see very different things in these scriptures, and what they pertain to the future.
As I said, what I see around me, both in the world at large and in other Christians, as well as what I know to be true in my own life...in conjunction with what I see the bible saying about our walk as well as how we are to see the age to come as opposed to this age...I...must...see a call to an imperfect people, who follow a perfect Lord. And while the Spirit within us is absolutely a guarantee for the fullness of promises ahead and a light in the dark now that always, always points to Jesus, there is no way, in this age or time, to divorce our world or our bodies from death and sin. Not yet. This is why we are repeatedly told to hope, to have faith, to wait. Again, not our doing, or we ought to strive and work and beat at the air. No, we wait patiently in what we cannot see, but know is bought by our Lord.

 

[Naomi25]

Understood. Still the whatsoever is pure, think on these things. With unto the pure all things are pure but to the unclean there is nothing pure...remains in my mind.

Does the fact that, as Christians, we are encouraged to strive to be more Christ-like, actually mean that we can or will, become as Christ, in this life? And by that I mean: having defeated sin and death and left sorrow behind.
Because...the text doesn't state that...just that it is good for those of us who follow Jesus and claim to love him, should find it good to meditate on these Christ-like qualities. Which is unsurprising, wouldn't you say?
The problem, as I see it, with suggesting that the bible teaches that Christians can and should become 'like Christ' in this age are manifold: There doesn't seem to be any explicit command in scripture that states it and, I would argue, plenty of passages that specifically teach against it. It teaches that all of us who haven't achieved it, can't seem to achieve it and will probably never will achieve it in our lifetimes, are substandard, inferior Christians who lack something...which again, goes against so many basic teachings of Christianity and that everyone is welcome under the blood of Christ because that is the ONLY thing that saves.
There is also the fact that even if some 'advanced' Christian managed to elevate their spiritually so far that he becomes completely sin free and death therefore has no hold over him, how could anyone with a sense of justice....holy, righteous, justice, still dwell on this earth and not grieve over the sin and sorrow and suffering we see...that he would see?
This is why the bible holds up a point in time...a future point in time, when ALL these are done away with. That point is Christ's return. But as long a sin is here, so will death, and sorrow. And sin will only be banished, for good, when Satan is finally defeated and this earth and the people upon is are swept clean of its last taint. Then Eden will be reborn and "Shalom" will once again be the heartbeat of all the people.

Along With Romans 8:28-31 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. [29] For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed (not conformed to this the world but transformed by the renewing of your mind) to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. [30] Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. [31] What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

consider that for a moment the ‘all things work(together) for good’ and How fast the pointed finger speaking vanity can move in and set up camp there. Easy to get lofty ideas or puffed up when reading ‘for all things are for your sakes’ chosen and called to be conform not to the world but transformed by the renewing (renewing sounds like ‘Behold, I make all things new)of your mind 2 Corinthians 4:15-18, ...all things work together for the good
...it is the all things ‘work together’ that stands out to me. 1 Corinthians 3:3-9 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? [4] For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? [5] Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? [6] I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. [7] So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. [8] Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: (work together)and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. [9] For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

Could say the ministration of condemnation and the ministration of righteousness work together for the good (Corinthians 3:9) proving what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. God giving the increase.

Again, I do think we're seeing things a bit differently. Not that, of course, that means I'm right. I suppose all we can do, each of us, is do our utmost to understand God's word faithfully and to heed it with all our hearts.

 

[Naomi25]

there is that ‘renew’ in renews all things. I don’t know but only He said ‘be transformed by the renewal of the mind’ ...does the ‘renewing of the mind’ and ‘we have the mind of Christ’ have no part at all in ‘Behold, I make all things new’ reconciling all things unto Christ?

Again...I think you are missing the 'already/not yet' implications of the kingdom. The 'engaged couple' and the 'married couple' are still the same people, but the marriage is the full and complete state of what the engagement promised and foreshadowed.
As the Christian, we partake of and experience many 'foreshadows' of the Kingdom, which are wondrous in and of themselves. They draw us closer to our 'beloved', encourage us to spend more time with him, growing in him, becoming more like him. But there is that constant call to set our sights on the end of the race, of the Kingdom fully realized. There, not only will our mind be 'renewed'...and not need to BE renewed every day to fend off sin, but so too will our bodies. We cannot ignore the very real fact that no matter how spiritually minded we become in this age, our bodies remain 'corruptible'.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

‘neither sorrow, nor crying’ sighing flees away...Are woes a cry? Are woes are past... lamentations is full of sorrow and cries and sighing. For example Lamentations 3:39-50 Thou hast made us as the offscouring and refuse in the midst of the people. [46] All our enemies have opened their mouths against us. [47] Fear and a snare is come upon us, desolation and destruction. [48] Mine eye runneth down with rivers of water for the destruction of the daughter of my people. [49] Mine eye trickleth down, and ceaseth not, without any intermission, [50] Till the Lord look down, and behold from heaven.
...covered with a cloud that our prayers could not pass through. “Mine eye trickle the dow, and ceased not
^until the Lord looked down, and behold from heaven.
Paul spoke of “woe” unto me if I preach not Christ. He also said: forgetting those things which are past, he did this one thing always reaching forth ...in not returning to what was “past” but reaching forth unto Christ.

Revelation 9:12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.

Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

I'm not precisely sure what you are driving at here, but...I'm not sure I agree with (if I gather correctly) the idea that we could perhaps say that there is a direct correlation between the promises of Rev 21-22 and the idea that these are but 'woes' that can be dismissed if we follow the calling to preach Christ.
There are many, many people who preach Christ who still experience pain, sorrow, sickness and death. The wonder and joy of Rev 21-22 is that there will come a time when these things will be no more. Not because we've measured up in our preaching, or our spiritual walk, or our understanding of scripture. Don't you see that those things are ALL inherently things WE must do? God promises a time when all these things will be gone, and it is because of what JESUS has done. It is his promise and Revelation tells us of this promise fulfilled. The triumph of the Lamb. When we take away sin and death because of our own striving, we limit the triumph of the Lamb.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Again...I think you are missing the 'already/not yet' implications of the kingdom. The 'engaged couple' and the 'married couple' are still the same people, but the marriage is the full and complete state of what the engagement promised and foreshadowed.
As the Christian, we partake of and experience many 'foreshadows' of the Kingdom, which are wondrous in and of themselves. They draw us closer to our 'beloved', encourage us to spend more time with him, growing in him, becoming more like him. But there is that constant call to set our sights on the end of the race, of the Kingdom fully realized. There, not only will our mind be 'renewed'...and not need to BE renewed every day to fend off sin, but so too will our bodies. We cannot ignore the very real fact that no matter how spiritually minded we become in this age, our bodies remain 'corruptible'.



I'm not precisely sure what you are driving at here, but...I'm not sure I agree with (if I gather correctly) the idea that we could perhaps say that there is a direct correlation between the promises of Rev 21-22 and the idea that these are but 'woes' that can be dismissed if we follow the calling to preach Christ.
There are many, many people who preach Christ who still experience pain, sorrow, sickness and death. The wonder and joy of Rev 21-22 is that there will come a time when these things will be no more. Not because we've measured up in our preaching, or our spiritual walk, or our understanding of scripture. Don't you see that those things are ALL inherently things WE must do? God promises a time when all these things will be gone, and it is because of what JESUS has done. It is his promise and Revelation tells us of this promise fulfilled. The triumph of the Lamb. When we take away sin and death because of our own striving, we limit the triumph of the Lamb.

first, thank you for taking time to respond and so carefully. Since you said in one of your previous post you have a lot to do right now with the family business. Also I didn’t mean to come off as claiming sinless perfection of a corruptible body. Yes, I have illness, and struggle to even wake up some days. I experience weakness, doubt, and sorrow. You have great insight and really I can’t complain about anything you shared here. I can see your points and maybe I am completely wrong in so many things. I had responded to an earlier post by another member on Isaiah 28:2 The Lord will beat down violently upon the earth, as a destroying tempest.

but then deleted that post because it is not going anywhere. I do not see the satellites in the sky as stars falling from heaven to the earth. on my end I’m not wanting to hurt anyone but to save someone time and breath and energy on what I might feel like is fools gold. but on another’s end they believe it wholeheartedly as much as I do in the opposite direction. I’m beginning to wonder what is the point, because we all have different perspective and are all equally convinced. Psalm 83:15 So persecute them with thy tempest, and make them afraid with thy storm.

what I see is the Lord was on the ship with the disciples and they cried ‘do you not care that we perish’ and he awakened as one out of sleep and rebuked the tempest. only a perspective but in another place they were taking on water until full and going under, but He rose up and spoke and calmed the winds and sea. Seems to repeat through-out the word. To me it is good news. In the OT He speaks of that weapon formed will not prosper. I can only think of what He says does not profit or prosper. Point is, while speaking of Isaiah 28:2 The Lord will beat down violently upon the earth, as a destroying tempest.

While condemnation has its place. Maybe also does pointing out who rose up and rebuked the tempest storm and there was a calm. Same with the woes. The third comes quickly. Revelation 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

1 Thessalonians 5:2-4 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. [3] For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. [4] But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

which is why (right or wrong) the mention of the woes. still (wadr) two woes are past(past standing out), Behold the third comes quickly ... as a thief in the night “But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.” And if any be in Christ he is a new creature old things have past, “Behold, I make all things new.”
Again, wadr I don’t see how they are a mismatch of verses but intertwine: ‘the comes quickly’ Revelation 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus IS the spirit of prophecy.

Revelation 22:18-20 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: [19] And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. [20] He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
Which (imo) helps with the odd ‘even so’ come...
Only an opinion but 1 Corinthians 9:16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!

I take that woe as “if I preach not the gospel” woe is unto me for Revelation 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Doubtfully you see this as a literal ‘the sword of my mouth’.

2 Corinthians 5:17-20 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. [18] And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; [19] To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. [20] Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

What do we fear most seems important. For that we fear most comes upon us?
Job 3:25 For the thing I feared has overtaken me, and what I dreaded has befallen me.

Thinking of how many times the urging to ‘Fear God’ and not men. how the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom and the departing from evil. If God is that which we fear most ...then does that which we fear most come upon us? Luke 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.

2 Peter 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

 

[Naomi25]

first, thank you for taking time to respond and so carefully. Since you said in one of your previous post you have a lot to do right now with the family business. Also I didn’t mean to come off as claiming sinless perfection of a corruptible body. Yes, I have illness, and struggle to even wake up some days. I experience weakness, doubt, and sorrow. You have great insight and really I can’t complain about anything you shared here. I can see your points and maybe I am completely wrong in so many things. I had responded to an earlier post by another member on Isaiah 28:2 The Lord will beat down violently upon the earth, as a destroying tempest.

but then deleted that post because it is not going anywhere. I do not see the satellites in the sky as stars falling from heaven to the earth. on my end I’m not wanting to hurt anyone but to save someone time and breath and energy on what I might feel like is fools gold. but on another’s end they believe it wholeheartedly as much as I do in the opposite direction. I’m beginning to wonder what is the point, because we all have different perspective and are all equally convinced. Psalm 83:15 So persecute them with thy tempest, and make them afraid with thy storm.

what I see is the Lord was on the ship with the disciples and they cried ‘do you not care that we perish’ and he awakened as one out of sleep and rebuked the tempest. only a perspective but in another place they were taking on water until full and going under, but He rose up and spoke and calmed the winds and sea. Seems to repeat through-out the word. To me it is good news. In the OT He speaks of that weapon formed will not prosper. I can only think of what He says does not profit or prosper. Point is, while speaking of Isaiah 28:2 The Lord will beat down violently upon the earth, as a destroying tempest.

While condemnation has its place. Maybe also does pointing out who rose up and rebuked the tempest storm and there was a calm. Same with the woes. The third comes quickly. Revelation 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

1 Thessalonians 5:2-4 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. [3] For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. [4] But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

which is why (right or wrong) the mention of the woes. still (wadr) two woes are past(past standing out), Behold the third comes quickly ... as a thief in the night “But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.” And if any be in Christ he is a new creature old things have past, “Behold, I make all things new.”
Again, wadr I don’t see how they are a mismatch of verses but intertwine: ‘the comes quickly’ Revelation 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus IS the spirit of prophecy.

Revelation 22:18-20 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: [19] And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. [20] He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
Which (imo) helps with the odd ‘even so’ come...
Only an opinion but 1 Corinthians 9:16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!

I take that woe as “if I preach not the gospel” woe is unto me for Revelation 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Doubtfully you see this as a literal ‘the sword of my mouth’.

2 Corinthians 5:17-20 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. [18] And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; [19] To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. [20] Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

What do we fear most seems important. For that we fear most comes upon us?
Job 3:25 For the thing I feared has overtaken me, and what I dreaded has befallen me.

Thinking of how many times the urging to ‘Fear God’ and not men. how the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom and the departing from evil. If God is that which we fear most ...then does that which we fear most come upon us? Luke 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.

2 Peter 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

You say "I’m beginning to wonder what is the point, because we all have different perspective and are all equally convinced", and its something that I often wonder. So many within Christianity itself claim to be "Spirit-led" in opposite directions. Which cannot be right...truth is not subjective. While it may, perhaps, be true that the Spirit is leading THEM in different directions, the claims they make which are diametrically opposed, cannot be true at the same time.
I think all we can do, as faithful and honest Christians, is be honest with others and ourselves. We cannot help how we see scripture as we read it...I am likely, due to my nature and upbringing, to see and understand things differently to you. But while I form my opinions that way, and while my basis of truth takes shape that way, I should never be beyond leading from the Spirit...which sometimes comes through other people...in how I view God's word or world. I confess it's hard at times. On one hand, I hate to be wrong...everyone does I suppose. But on the other hand...I do love learning new things...especially when it's God leading me there! I've had a few new doorways opened to me recently and I've enjoyed the learning very much.
And I think, at the very end of it all, if the "point" we come back to is Jesus, and him crucified for us....then many of the finer details that we sometimes struggle with so much, won't matter so much after all.

 

[Enoch111]

They will not be actual stars. That interpretation is impossible for many reasons.

That is not correct. With reference to Revelation 6:13, the only true interpretation must be a LITERAL interpretation, since Jesus Himself made that meaning literal. In all the accounts of the Olivet Discourse, everything related to the "shaking" of the heavenly bodies is literal.

HERE ARE THE WORDS OF CHRIST HIMSELF
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (Matthew)

And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. (Mark)

And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; (Luke)

So the stars will literally fall from the heavens, which corresponds to the words of God recorded in Hebrews 12:26,27: Whose voice then shook the earth [at Mount Sinai]: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

This is a quote from Haggai 2:6,7, which speaks of the Second Coming of Christ immediately after the "shaking" of the heavens and the earth: For thus saith the LORD of hosts; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land; And I will shake all nations, and the Desire of all Nations [Christ] shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith the LORD of hosts.