John Darby

[Naomi25]

not denying the: those who thirst; come and drink. Only asking what are they to drink if not of the Living water which proceeds out of throne of God and of the Lamb. Revelation 22:1-2 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. [2] In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

forgive me but then I’m unsure sure how then, when Christ said He come out from the Father, and if any man drinks of the water He gives they will never thirst again...how is He not saying He is the River of Life and if any drink of the water He gives they will never go thirsty? Is this ‘drinking’ and ‘come’ future when He stood and cried ‘come drink’ of the Living water? how does it get turned into a literal physical river in some future restoration? Or along with the River of Life, also the ‘yielding of fruits’ which are for the healing of the nations. One night my husband and I went to a bible study and they were talking about the garden and all discussing what we do know is ...there will be literal trees with literal fruit for healing. The conversation went on with everyone trying to imagine what fruits will there be? Not once, Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

instead... apples, oranges...

Okay...I think I see your point, and its a good one. You are correct that the 'tree of life' may not be strictly a literal fruit tree. However, I think theologically, It does have a solid basis, even if the 'fruit tree' is only symbolic. You see...when Adam and Eve sinned, not only were they banished from the garden (place of paradise where they had access to God) as punishment, but they were also denied access to this tree of life...punishment AND mercy. You see...God said, 'now, lest he reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and and eat and live forever -'.....and sent them away from it. God did not want his creations living eternally IN their sin, in their fallen, divorced relationship from God. Yes, death would come, but the redemption plan had already been set in motion, a way to lead humanity back to the garden and back to the tree of life where they may, again, eat of it and live forever in community and harmony with God.
So...regardless if the tree is actually a tree, there is something, be it only God's blessing, that gives humanity the gift of eternal life. I would submit that the 'water of life' is but the same thing in a way. Christians have accepted and drunk this water...our souls are eternally bound to Christ and redeemed by his death. Which means that even when our bodies die, our souls will never experience this 'second death'. Indeed, we have been promised new bodies.
And, in regards to your "fruit of the spirit", which are precious and indeed things anyone who has drunk from 'living water' must meditate on daily...I think when our perfect bodies are given to us, that 'fruit' we struggle to live up to now, will be our new natures.
Don't know about you, but I can't hardly wait!

 

[Naomi25]

You obviously do not have an answer for the Scriptures I have shown you, so now you are trying to bear a false witness against me? You hypocrite, may Lord Jesus rebuke you.

Well, of course I don't "have an answer", because any answer I provide will automatically be labelled a 'doctrine of man' and therefore incorrect by you before the conversation even starts. Thereby not encouraging me to even try to provide either answer or conversation. You can say that's 'bearing false witness' against you, but that's honestly how I see it. And as I have felt no rebuke from the Lord over said conversation, I feel comfortable where I sit. I'm sorry if that offends you.

 

[Naomi25]

One promise was to bless thy bread and thy water Exodus 23:25 And ye shall serve the Lord your God, and he shall bless thy bread, and thy water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of thee.

One promise was to bless thy bread and thy water ‘I am the bread’ ‘I am the living water’ God's Favor: "Jesus was rejected indeed by men, but chose by God. "Come to Him—the living stone—who was rejected by people but accepted by God as chosen and precious." 1 Peter 2:4.

‘he shall bless thy bread, and thy water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of thee.’ Is that bread of God, that water of God...blessed of Him? Then what more promise is needed to fulfill all the promises of God in Christ. Same with ‘I will take sickness away from the midst of thee.’ That pointing of the finger speaking vanity in the midst of thee ...when it is removed form the midst and He is in the midst, then He has removed sickness from the midst of thee. When you deal out your bread to the poor ....then the light breaks forth. Point is, has He fulfilled the promises made to them —one being to bless the bread and the water— or Is there still a wait, for the bread of God and water of God to be blessed of Him? 2 Peter 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

If I am following you correctly, the thing you are most struggling with is the fact that that while scripture presents many of the spiritual promises as a present reality, people keep talking like there is something more to come....(am I right?)
Because, yes, absolutely we have...access to these promises NOW. However...biblically and theologically, we live in a tension where we would say we don't have them FULLY. Let me give you a few examples of the 'already/not yet':

• already adopted in Christ (Romans 8:15), but not yet adopted (Romans 8:23);
• already redeemed in Christ (Ephesians 1:7), but not yet redeemed (Ephesians 4:30);
• already sanctified in Christ (1 Corinthians 1:2), but not yet sanctified (1 Thessalonians 5:23–24);
• already saved in Christ (Ephesians 2:8), but not yet saved (Romans 5:9);
• already raised with Christ (Ephesians 2:6), but not yet raised (1 Corinthians 15:52).

By faith in Christ, all of these spiritual blessings are ours already, but the full enjoyment of these blessings is not yet ours.
We can use some examples to help illustrate the point: engaged couples are sure of their future relationship...but have yet to experience the complete nature of the union of it. The heir of a great fortune or company has the guarantee of an unimaginable future wealth and power...but will not fully grasp it until it passes to him. In both cases many of the benefits of the situation can be felt and experienced, but it's not until the final situation is consummated that they can truly live out the full promise of what they knew was coming.
Likewise for Christians, when Jesus died on the cross he secured for them a certain future. It's a future that give us tastes now...we have assurance, we have the Spirit given to us to aid our spiritual walk and closeness with God. We have the family of God that we are drawn to in our salvation. But when it comes to the FULL realization of what Jesus secured for us? A return to Eden...no sin, no death, God WALKING with us? That is yet to come.

I hope that is clear and helpful (and...well...actually where you were going!)

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Well, in John Christ tells his Disciples that he must leave them in order for the Spirit to come (16:7), who will 'be with us forever' (14:16). We know that in Matt 28:20 that Jesus promised to be with us "to the end of the age"...so how does his 'leaving' and the Spirits 'coming' fit with that? Like this:

Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?” Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. -John 14:22–23

And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; -John 16:8–10

Basically, Jesus is telling the disciples that when he physically departs the Spirit will take his place by dwelling within us. Jesus, one with the Father, also one with the Spirit, is therefore present within us as we walk with the Spirit.
However, if we understand this to be the case, we can then look at the promises Christ gives us for his physical return to be fulfilled literally in the future.

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. -John 14:3

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” -Revelation 21:1–4

There are other passages, but we can clearly see that the bible promises 1) a physical return of Jesus Christ, and 2) a time when God (which of course includes 'the lamb') dwelling among his people as he once did in the garden of Eden when sin and death are no more. We can clearly say that that is not now.



I would say that all these questions are answered by "the Spirit". We have God IN us, right now. Christ promised us his presence...the presence of God, and that's exactly what we have in the Spirit. He said that it was, in fact, 'better' for him to leave, physically and send the Spirit...presumably because in his physical form, Jesus would be present in one location on earth, while the Spirit is present within every believer, working within their lives.
And yes, this gives them light, it gives them strength to turn away from sin, it convicts...or I should say 'he' convicts and brings to remembrance Jesus and what he said. We grow in our Christian walk every day under the hand of the Spirit.
But we can still turn to Revelation and say; there is still death, sin, sorrow. And God himself does not walk with me 'in the cool of the day', like he did with Adam and Eve. That is a future reality, when my body no longer aches and tears no longer fall. When drought and famine no longer cause heartache and death.
It's a very real future and one Paul encourages us to encourage each other with in Thessalonians!

good points. Really, I do not know and have questions. For instance when He wipes away the tears seems to be when the vail is removed. As Isaiah 25:7-9 seems to indicate: And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations. [8] He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the Lord hath spoken it. [9] And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the Lord ; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.

In the above he also destroys the face of the covering cast over the people ...is this the face destroyed in the mirror upon beholding His face and they are changed from glory to glory. 2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

also in the above ‘and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth:’ does the rebuke of his people remain then? How much rebuke? when is the vail taken away? Are all the blind leading the blind?

 

[Naomi25]

If you acknowledge that Jesus will reign as King in eternity, then you also acknowledge that death reigns in eternity!

I'm sorry, but

How on EARTH does 1 Cor 15 mean I think Jesus being King in eternity mean death exists in eternity? Are you, perhaps, forgetting these verses:

And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever, -Daniel 2:44

But of the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom. -Hebrews 1:8

Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.” -Revelation 11:15

Do you know what these verses mean? They mean this: when Jesus came he inaugurated his Kingdom...and that kingdom would never, ever end. All it would do, is change from 'inaugurated' to 'fulfilled'. That's where 1 Cor 15 comes in.

But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. -1 Corinthians 15:23–26

Then AT his coming he delivers the kingdom to the Father after destroying the last enemy; death.

Thus, John in Revelation can say that what was at one time both 'kingdom of the world' and what we would call 'spiritual kingdom' (and we've been over this, we can't biblically deny that there IS a part of the kingdom present now), it becomes, AT the defeat of death the "kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ". In other words it is AT the death of death that the Kingdom is consummated and moved into eternity.

So...very definitely I DO NOT say that Jesus being King in eternity means death is there as well. In fact, I say the opposite.

We neede to make sure to look each other up when we are in the millenial kingdom !!!!!! (Sorry, but I had to get one more jab in!! LOL)

I look forward to engaging again.

Well...I don't jabs. And, well, considering how...factually off-base, this one was, I especially don't mind it!
I suspect that when it comes to that time...us being able to meet after Jesus comes...we'll probably not be overly concerned by the matter any more. But yes...I suppose it will be very interesting to see who hits closest to the mark. Some days I feel like God's probably laughing and no-one will come anywhere close. Other days I think perhaps we've all got bits that are right, and he's steering us that way for a reason...to keep conversation on the topic alive and in our hearts. Either way...while sure, I'm convinced at present where I am...I simply don't care as long as he comes! Maranatha, am I right?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

If I am following you correctly, the thing you are most struggling with is the fact that that while scripture presents many of the spiritual promises as a present reality, people keep talking like there is something more to come....(am I right?)

exactly!

Because, yes, absolutely we have...access to these promises NOW. However...biblically and theologically, we live in a tension where we would say we don't have them FULLY. Let me give you a few examples of the 'already/not yet':

Experience this tension also of ‘already/not yet’. Tired tonight but will go back tomorrow to read the examples you gave more closely. Yes, I struggle because I see something beautiful (His love) and at the same time have this tension you speak of.

added...for instance virgins that all slept: the wise that wouldn’t give oil for light to the foolish, for then they would not have enough for themselves. With Ephesians 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

He takes the foolish to confound the wise. Realize I sound crazy but that ‘awake thou that sleep...Christ will give you light.’

...that breaks me, not hearing a no from Him but an offer to another. Christ doesn’t say no least there won’t be enough oil.

 

[Naomi25]

What is missing is you jumped from verse 24 to verse 29 and forgot the new though Paul started in verse 25:

No, I didn't "forget" them, especially after you based your mistaken view on them, I was just pointing out that the context for reading them ought to come from the passage above them. Which shouldn't be a shocking idea.
And you're still avoiding the point: which is, this passage doesn't promise a return to OT earthly monarchy. It promises them a returning to the olive tree IN Christ. Which is a union with all believers. And, as I keep saying, Gal 3:29 puts us, along with any and all believing Jews as "heirs of the Abrahamic promises". That does not bode well for you visions of a separate Israel in any future time.

Well the millenial kingdom is the last point in time! ( or just about, there are a few things afterwards) These are the gifts and calling. Salvation is not about the millennial, but eternity, but only the saved who survive Armegeddon are the humans who enter the kingdom, the rest of us are saved and glorified saints!

'The gifts and callings'. Let me ask, briefly, what exactly is promised 'Israel' in the OT. If we were to boil down all the prophets and promises into some simple expectations that the Jewish nation had for their 'upcoming' kingdom, what do you suppose they'd be?
All enemies defeated? Their Messiah on the throne? The people of God blessed? God dwelling among them? The fruit of the earth multiplied and plentiful? Death and disease and sorrow no more?
Funny, is it not, that these 'gifts and callings' are met exactly within the salvational promises of the new heavens and earth.
And I'm still not sure where you get the bible verses that tell us that there will be people surviving the return of Christ at 'Armeggedon'. All the verses I see tell me that AT Christ's return, people are either judged into righteous eternity or damned eternity. Both of those are eternal realities, not 'millennial' ones for natural bodies.

I would have to restudy the role of OT saints during the Millenial, but the church is Jesus bride and thence His queen! The survivors of the Trib go into the kingdom and repopulate the earth where Jesus rules with a rod of iron as it is written.

I know Dispensationalists hate....HATE when people read passages in a poetic light. But here's the thing. When I come to OT passages such as Is 65 I find it MUCH easier to believe that the author is using poetic imagery to describe amazing things, rather than the opposite...which is to completely ignore the opening verses (Behold! I make a new heavens and new earth!) and then go on to create an entire doctrine of rather bizzare things weaved together. Like; "well, once Jesus comes there will be some judged, some resurrected, but some not. Then some of these 'naturals' and some of these 'heavenlies' will live together where some will have babies, who will go on to sin and rebel against Jesus even though he's ruling here in person. These rebels will have to die at exactly 100 years old, so that means at the great rebellion at the end the devil will have to gather only those who are under 100."

You might think it "fits" together logically, but when stacked up against bible verses that actually speak of what Jesus WILL do at his return, it's just down-right odd.
Which leads me back to Is 65 ACTUALLY being about "a new heavens and a new earth" and the author being poetic. Because why shouldn't he? Especially after he just TOLD us what he was talking about.

This is just something God said He would od! Then comes eternity. None of us know if the distinctions found in the millenial (the roles each class of saints play) hold in eternity! All the OT passages of things like the lion lying with teh lamb are millenial kingdom descriptions- not eternal ones!

Agree to disagree.

 

[Naomi25]

@Naomi25 1 Thess. 4: "Wherefore comfort one another with these words".

That's the one...I was too lazy to look it up!

 

[Naomi25]

good points. Really, I do not know and have questions. For instance when He wipes away the tears seems to be when the vail is removed. As Isaiah 25:7-9 seems to indicate: And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations. [8] He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the Lord hath spoken it. [9] And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the Lord ; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.

In the above he also destroys the face of the covering cast over the people ...is this the face destroyed in the mirror upon beholding His face and they are changed from glory to glory. 2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

I absolutely agree that Is 25 and 2 Cor 3 are linked, and the 'veil' being referred to is likely being used in a similar manner. Is 25 promises a time when salvation will mean that such a 'covering' will be taken away. And 2 Cor 3 takes that further; Paul points to the obvious glory that shone at Moses' giving of the holy law...and yet informs us that compared to the freedom and grace...the truth we find in Christ, the 'old covenant' and the people still residing under it "remain under that veil". The remain "veiled" until they "turn to the Lord and has the veil removed" (v16). Its then we are transformed from glory to glory.

also in the above ‘and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth:’ does the rebuke of his people remain then? How much rebuke? when is the vail taken away? Are all the blind leading the blind?

Well, if we take 2 Cor 3 faithfully, as well as passages such as Gal 3, Rom 11 and Eph 1, we begin to see that "his people" are those whom he has 'grafted into' the olive tree of faith in Christ. Abraham's heirs are all those who come to faith and repentance in Jesus Christ. And those are, therefore, the ones who have the 'veil' lifted by the Spirit so they may see the truth of Christ. The Spirit then walks with them in life, both as testimony and guarantee and I suppose as witness to others.

 

[Naomi25]

exactly!



Experience this tension also of ‘already/not yet’. Tired tonight but will go back tomorrow to read the examples you gave more closely. Yes, I struggle because I see something beautiful (His love) and at the same time have this tension you speak of.

added...for instance virgins that all slept: the wise that wouldn’t give oil for light to the foolish, for then they would not have enough for themselves. With Ephesians 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

He takes the foolish to confound the wise. Realize I sound crazy but that ‘awake thou that sleep...Christ will give you light.’

...that breaks me, not hearing a no from Him but an offer to another. Christ doesn’t say no least there won’t be enough oil.

I won't comment more on the 'already/not yet' until you can comment on my other post, or I might get ahead of the conversation.
However, I think with the two verses you've referred to here, Eph 5:13-14 and Matt 25:1-13, while the examples given both speak of 'light', they are not, strictly, speaking of the same thing.
The parable of the wise and foolish virgins is specifically speaking towards the return of Christ and how we, as Christians, should live and prepare towards that event. The fact that at the end of the parable the foolish virgins are told by the groom "truly, I don't know you", should suggest to us that only a relationship with Christ will allow us entrance into 'the wedding'. It's not really a matter of 'sharing oil', because a personal relationship cannot, in fact, be shared with anyone else, it must be cultivated with Christ one on one.
The other takeaway from the parable is that anyone with a relationship with Christ ought to live prepared for his return. We should not live in apathy.
The Ephesians verses are found in a passage that are talking about godly living here on earth...our walk now. Paul confesses that yes, at one time we shared sinful natures with evildoers, but that as children of God we know 'walk in the light'. He encourages us to shine the light of Christ, his work and words on our life and our deeds. And any of the 'death' of our old life still clinging to them will flee like shadows flee light.

 

[Philip James]

. You are correct that the 'tree of life' may not be strictly a literal fruit tree.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I won't comment more on the 'already/not yet' until you can comment on my other post, or I might get ahead of the conversation.

Thanks. the ‘already/not yet’ might take some time for consideration. Have my grandchildren today, but will hopefully look closer at it tonight.

However, I think with the two verses you've referred to here, Eph 5:13-14 and Matt 25:1-13, while the examples given both speak of 'light', they are not, strictly, speaking of the same thing.
The parable of the wise and foolish virgins is specifically speaking towards the return of Christ and how we, as Christians, should live and prepare towards that event. The fact that at the end of the parable the foolish virgins are told by the groom "truly, I don't know you", should suggest to us that only a relationship with Christ will allow us entrance into 'the wedding'. It's not really a matter of 'sharing oil', because a personal relationship cannot, in fact, be shared with anyone else, it must be cultivated with Christ one on one.
The other takeaway from the parable is that anyone with a relationship with Christ ought to live prepared for his return. We should not live in apathy.

I’m glad you pointed out the difference in ‘light’ there, because I had not consider that. I can see your point.
as different as the ministration of condemnation and the ministration of the Spirit. Hear condemnation (which glory is to be done away with) in the parables but also the ministration of Spirit (which glory remains). Just a perspective and get it can easily be wrong but even in the talents he was speaking condemnation first...yet possibly turned the parable on its head at ‘buried’ or ‘laid up in a napkin’ which they didn’t want to hear as that one in the parable is a disgrace. Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Can also see your point about relationship being personal which is why (imo) ‘wake up thou that sleep and Christ will give you light’ is so profound to me. Hearing that personal relationship there in ‘come to Me and I will give you light’. Could be wrong but personal relationship’ in His not saying: go ask the wise, or go to those that buy and sell, but instead a bold ‘wake up thou that sleep, come to me and I will give you Light.’. Again, get your point about the difference in lights, for the Light He gives burns continuously. As the lamps were to burn continuously, the Light He gives does. (Never to be put out? Proverbs 4:18 But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.)

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I'm sorry, but

How on EARTH does 1 Cor 15 mean I think Jesus being King in eternity mean death exists in eternity? Are you, perhaps, forgetting these verses:

And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever, -Daniel 2:44

But of the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom. -Hebrews 1:8

Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.” -Revelation 11:15

Do you know what these verses mean? They mean this: when Jesus came he inaugurated his Kingdom...and that kingdom would never, ever end. All it would do, is change from 'inaugurated' to 'fulfilled'. That's where 1 Cor 15 comes in.

But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. -1 Corinthians 15:23–26

See Jesus reigns only until death is vanquished- the last enemy!

Then Jesus turns over the kingdom to His Father! Does Jesus still reign? Yes! But if we follow teh way kings ruled in teh cultiure of the day then Jesus is subordinate ruler to His Father!

Dan 2 Yes the Kingdom will stand forever!
Heb. 1 Yes Jesus has an eternal throne
Rev. 11 Construct demands the rule forever and ever goes back to Our Lord (not His Christ)

But tghe "when"of Jesus starts His reign is not germaine to the fact that He does end His reign and submits Himself back to teh Father!

Like wqhen Jospeh was in Egypt and Daniel in Persi, they became rulers (Joseph 2nd highest) Daniiel 3rd highest.
After teh 1,000 years where Jesus has absolute reign, the white throne judgment takes place, death is vanquished and He hands the Kingdom back to His Father and submits Himself to His Father as subordinated King.

And REv. 14:10 declares that somehow teh residents of the lake of fire are tormented in the presence of Jesus and the angels. We never see them or at least there is no evidence whether we do or not but they are tormented before Jesus and the angels.

You can decide for your self what you think that means. I know what it does and it gives no joy!

See it is a simple fact that jesus cannot reign forever and yet at the same time turn the kingdom over to HIs father once death is destroyed in the lake of fire! So it is peoples understanding of how or why jesus reigns that is at fault.

In REv. the forever and ever, teh nouns are accusative, genetive plural while IN Hebrews 1 the forever and ever is also accusative and Genetive but singular. This is important! For the Sons throne is for an age! While Gods throne is for ages unto ages!

 

[Naomi25]

View attachment 11306

Ha. Well...sure...that is, without doubt THE tree on which life was won. But I don't know that the cross, with Christ upon it, was either in the garden to begin with, or will be in the New Jerusalem when all things are made new.
And...if it was...purely symbolic of 'eternal life as given or granted by God', then why would God have had to bar them from it's presence/access in Eden. Yes, that was punishment, but the text makes it sound like it was also necessity. I could be wrong, but that's how I read it.

 

[Naomi25]

See Jesus reigns only until death is vanquished- the last enemy!

Then Jesus turns over the kingdom to His Father! Does Jesus still reign? Yes! But if we follow teh way kings ruled in teh cultiure of the day then Jesus is subordinate ruler to His Father!

You've just contradicted yourself and proved your own point wrong. "Does Jesus still reign?...Yes".
Yes. Which means when Jesus "hands over the Kingdom" the kingdom does not 'end' nor does Jesus give over his right as Lord of Lords, King of Kings. Ipso facto...Jesus reigns as King.
1 Cor 15 goes on to tell us that the reason Jesus 'hands over the kingdom' is that God may be 'all in all'. In other words, once the Kingdom moves into eternity, the Trinity functions as it always has, with Christ in loving and willing submission to the Father. But, as you point out and I'd assume would not deny, this does not mean he does not still reign and does not still claim the 'king of kings' title as he rules on a throne that was promised to never end.

Dan 2 Yes the Kingdom will stand forever!
Heb. 1 Yes Jesus has an eternal throne
Rev. 11 Construct demands the rule forever and ever goes back to Our Lord (not His Christ)

Again, proving your own point wrong. If Jesus has an 'eternal' throne and his kingdom stands forever, how can he 'only reign until death is vanquished'?
1 Cor 15 and the defeat of death...the handing over of 'the kingdom' is nothing more than a signalling of this 'already' part of the kingdom moving into the 'not yet' part of the kingdom....the "your kingdom come, here on earth as it is in heaven" part.

But tghe "when"of Jesus starts His reign is not germaine to the fact that He does end His reign and submits Himself back to teh Father!

How on earth can you claim that Jesus' reign is eternal, and yet that he also 'ends it'? The two cannot both be true.
Which means "handing over the kingdom" cannot mean "ending his reign". Which is true in many senses...the first being; it simply doesn't say it. The Trinity is one, so there is no call for Christ giving up his eternal throne and title of King of Kings when he submits to the Father by handing this stage of the kingdom to him.

Like wqhen Jospeh was in Egypt and Daniel in Persi, they became rulers (Joseph 2nd highest) Daniiel 3rd highest.
After teh 1,000 years where Jesus has absolute reign, the white throne judgment takes place, death is vanquished and He hands the Kingdom back to His Father and submits Himself to His Father as subordinated King.

I'm not sure those examples can be used. Firstly, the members of the Trinity function in a unity that cannot really be adequately explained by human examples. And while its true Jesus, as the Son, is subordinate under the Father, it still doesn't change the fact that he remains King. And if he remains King...even a subordinate King, then he rules the kingdom he is king over. An 'eternal reign and throne' doesn't really allow any wiggle space.

And REv. 14:10 declares that somehow teh residents of the lake of fire are tormented in the presence of Jesus and the angels. We never see them or at least there is no evidence whether we do or not but they are tormented before Jesus and the angels.

You can decide for your self what you think that means. I know what it does and it gives no joy!

If we assume that the lake of fire doesn't mean annihilation...which I don't...then the people (and Satan and his demons) there will still be under the domain (whole cosmos) of the ruler of eternity.
I don't believe we can truly know how it will go, but as King, that would be Jesus. Of course, arguments could be made that as God his presence is everywhere at all times, and thus they are tormented before him. Like I said, we can't really know how that will go. When it comes to the difficult, judgment parts of scripture, I trust in the goodness and justice of God to do right.

See it is a simple fact that jesus cannot reign forever and yet at the same time turn the kingdom over to HIs father once death is destroyed in the lake of fire! So it is peoples understanding of how or why jesus reigns that is at fault.

Why can't Jesus reign forever? Don't we have multiple scriptures promising just that? Haven't you said exactly that yourself? Isn't both his reign and his throne supposed to be forever?
So...either we have a serious contradiction in scripture, or, like I said before, the 'handing over' of the kingdom does NOT mean that Christ's reign and throne comes to an end.

In REv. the forever and ever, teh nouns are accusative, genetive plural while IN Hebrews 1 the forever and ever is also accusative and Genetive but singular. This is important! For the Sons throne is for an age! While Gods throne is for ages unto ages!

And yet...its interesting, don't you think, that in Revelation so often when we see the throne of God, we see the Lamb right there with him. Why is that, do you think?

Revelation 5:13 - And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!”

Revelation 6:16 - calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb,

Revelation 7:9-10 - After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”

Revelation 7:17 - For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd, and he will guide them to springs of living water, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."

Revelation 22:1 - Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb

Revelation 22:3 - No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him.

"The throne of God AND of the Lamb".....
When Jesus "hands over the kingdom" to the Father, he does not loose his title, his throne, his reign. No...the nature and relationship of the Trinity is such that this just does not occur...it could not occur. Instead, Rev 22 shows us an eternity where the Father and Son are in unity on the throne. As in eternity past, no doubt the Son is in submission to the Father, but again, we look to the promise of scripture for 'an eternal throne and kingdom' and to the prophecy of Rev 22 and we can with certainty say that Jesus, even after death is gone and he has 'handed the kingdom over', he still absolutely reigns.

 

[Naomi25]

Thanks. the ‘already/not yet’ might take some time for consideration. Have my grandchildren today, but will hopefully look closer at it tonight.


I’m glad you pointed out the difference in ‘light’ there, because I had not consider that. I can see your point.
as different as the ministration of condemnation and the ministration of the Spirit. Hear condemnation (which glory is to be done away with) in the parables but also the ministration of Spirit (which glory remains). Just a perspective and get it can easily be wrong but even in the talents he was speaking condemnation first...yet possibly turned the parable on its head at ‘buried’ or ‘laid up in a napkin’ which they didn’t want to hear as that one in the parable is a disgrace. Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

I'm afraid I don't quite understand your point here, sorry.
Isn't glory, naturally, a reflection of God and therefore a gift that comes with a true understanding and therefore reflection of our life of him?
In the parable of the talents, the money given to the servants (talents) was not even truly a gift from the master, but a responsibility to use what they had been given wisely. The first two servants did and were rewarded...the last did not.
I think, perhaps, the real point to the parable is, again, relationship and a knowing of the persons involved. Because...sure, on the surface its telling us to be wise with what we've been given, but when we consider what the servants did beyond that, we see the 'wicked' servant was not just lazy...he had a fundamental misunderstanding of who his master was. He thought his master was cruel, hard and greedy and so decided to take action to deny the master any benefit from his own assets. The servant reflected the masters glory poorly, because he didn't understand it at all...he didn't see it or acknowledge it or think it was right or just.
The two servants who did well, they recognized that what they had been given was not their own, that they had been trusted and faith had been placed upon them to do well with something that was not their own. They dealt faithfully with that trust...they reflected that glory. Which leads to spiritual growth and blessing, for themselves and others..."more will be given"..
The point, I think is...do we know who it is we are serving, who we are waiting for? Are we reflecting that accurate relationship to others and in our own lives? Is it making us ready for his return?

Can also see your point about relationship being personal which is why (imo) ‘wake up thou that sleep and Christ will give you light’ is so profound to me. Hearing that personal relationship there in ‘come to Me and I will give you light’. Could be wrong but personal relationship’ in His not saying: go ask the wise, or go to those that buy and sell, but instead a bold ‘wake up thou that sleep, come to me and I will give you Light.’. Again, get your point about the difference in lights, for the Light He gives burns continuously. As the lamps were to burn continuously, the Light He gives does. (Never to be put out? Proverbs 4:18 But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.)

That indeed could be true, but I would point out that it would be contingent on people 'coming' to him for that light, or 'waking' if they are asleep. We must not miss the constant biblical references that although God has a heart for all, he has made salvation but one way...through his Son. It's okay to feel that tension and not fully understand it I think. But its there in scripture none-the-less.

 

[Philip James]

Ha. Well...sure...that is, without doubt THE tree on which life was won. But I don't know that the cross, with Christ upon it, was either in the garden to begin with, or will be in the New Jerusalem when all things are made new.
And...if it was...purely symbolic of 'eternal life as given or granted by God', then why would God have had to bar them from it's presence/access in Eden. Yes, that was punishment, but the text makes it sound like it was also necessity. I could be wrong, but that's how I read it.

Hi Naomi,

Thank you for responding...

All that time in the garden and they could eat from any tree.. Why did they not eat from the tree of life? Was it unappealing to the eyes??

Peace be with you!

 

[Naomi25]

Hi Naomi,

Thank you for responding...

All that time in the garden and they could eat from any tree.. Why did they not eat from the tree of life? Was it unappealing to the eyes??

Peace be with you!

Well...I would say that we're not told they DIDN'T eat from the tree of life...initially:

The LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it. And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” -Genesis 2:15–17

Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—” Genesis 3:22

The information we receive is that the ONLY tree initially forbidden was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And once they disobeyed and ate of it, THEN God forbade them access to the tree of life...'lest they live forever'. Now...after reading Rev 22 below:


through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. -Revelation 22:2


I would guess that 'continued' eternal life depends on the 'continued' access to the tree, which yields fruit "each month". I'm not dogmatic on it, and there's really not that much information, so, like I said, it's just a guess, and it could very well be that the 'tree and fruit' is imagery for something else...but that's the general gist of it.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I'm afraid I don't quite understand your point here, sorry.

Was commenting on your pointing out the difference in light and comparing it to the difference in ministrations, only in saying I see your point there is a difference. 2 Corinthians 3:7-11 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: [8] How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? [9] For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. [10] For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. [11] For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

Just an opinion but was pointing out the parables: how maybe on the surface is the ministration of condemnation but yet there is also ‘let him hear’. Is the ‘let him hear’ where the vail remains (even until this day)or when it is removed? (If I told you earthly things and you believed me not, how then will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? By whose power?) 2 Corinthians 3:14-17 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. [15] But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. [16] Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. [17] Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

maybe still confusing, main point I was attempting to make is: there is a difference in light, same as there is a difference of ministrations.

Working on commenting on the now/not yet

 

[Davy]

Well, of course I don't "have an answer", because any answer I provide will automatically be labelled a 'doctrine of man' and therefore incorrect by you before the conversation even starts.

That's certainly not true, but only making excuses to keep following ideas that are 'against' God's written Word.