Elijah And The Dreadful Day

[brionne]

Pegg, I fear your comment shows that you are not willing to accept this. It isn't incumbent upon me to force you to believe anything. You haven't answered the questions I asked that should be answered if indeed the twig was Christ as you are saying. Also, I provided scripture showing the inheritance going to daughters of Israel, which verifies the fact that the inheritance of the kingly line could lawfully pass through Zedekiah's daughters and will repeat them. It is up to you to see what is written.

Numbers 27:7 The daughters of Zelophehad speak right: thou shalt surely give them a possession of an inheritance among their father's brethren; and thou shalt cause the inheritance of their father to pass unto them.

Numbers 36:2 And they said, The LORD commanded my lord to give the land for an inheritance by lot to the children of Israel: and my lord was commanded by the LORD to give the inheritance of Zelophehad our brother unto his daughters.​

I also ask that you watch this rather poorly done video. It gives you some information on the Stone of Scone, which has everything to do with this topic. It may lead you into further study...or not. :)

the reason why the daughters of Zelophehad were approved to recieve inheritence was because their father died without a male heir....Moses agreed that Zelophehad should not be deprived of an inheritence and so he approved of the daughters request. But do you know why he also imposed a condition on the daughters that they could never marry an isrealite from one of the other tribes?

The reason he did that was so that Zelophehads inheritence would not pass to another tribe thru a 'male' offspring. So you see, daughters in general did not recieve inheritences....all inheritence was passed only to males. This instance was an exception to the rule sand it was not for the benefit of the daughters....it was for the benefit of their father.


I showed you from the Hebrew Interlinear that the word used was indeed 'twig' and not 'rod' as the KJV uses. If that is not enough evidence for you to believe that Jesus is the twig of the stump of Jesse, then i cant do anymore with this subject. I admit that its an intersesting speculation but as it cannot be supported in scripture, then thats where it stops with me. If we uphold the writings of men over the writings inspired by Gods holy spirit, then we are doing ourselves a great injustice.

God is the source of our truth. Outside sources are good only for confirming things we may not understand about the original languages and things to do with customs and the historical aspects of the people of Isreal....but im afraid that the idea that Jeremiah took the daughters of Zedekiah to Scotland has no evidence to support it. Show me in the bible where Jeremiah gets on a boat with 2 girls and travels over seas....its simply not there, is it.

 

[Paul]

...

I showed you from the Hebrew Interlinear that the word used was indeed 'twig' and not 'rod' as the KJV uses. ...

So, pegg, what else can that Hebrew word mean?

 

[brionne]

So, pegg, what else can that Hebrew word mean?

Im not sure why you are having an issue with the word twig. There are many similar words used in the hebrew such as “Sprout” (NW, Le) or “the Branch” (KJ, AT), “the Bud” (Ro)

but the hebrew words she′vet and mat‧teh′ are translated as “rod” and they are also rendered as 'staff' or 'stick'...they are not connected to a tree in the way a branch or bud or twig or sprout is. The root of Jesse is symbolic language signifying that from Jesse would come the messiah...we know Jesus is called the 'son of David' and the 'root of Jesse'

the only reason i can think that you are so perplexed by the word 'twig' is because it completely blows the theory of the 2 daughters out of the water.

 

[Paul]

Im not sure why you are having an issue with the word twig. There are many similar words used in the hebrew such as “Sprout” (NW, Le) or “the Branch” (KJ, AT), “the Bud” (Ro)

but the hebrew words she′vet and mat‧teh′ are translated as “rod” and they are also rendered as 'staff' or 'stick'...they are not connected to a tree in the way a branch or bud or twig or sprout is. The root of Jesse is symbolic language signifying that from Jesse would come the messiah...we know Jesus is called the 'son of David' and the 'root of Jesse'

the only reason i can think that you are so perplexed by the word 'twig' is because it completely blows the theory of the 2 daughters out of the water.

doesn't perplex me at all.

 

[whirlwind]

the reason why the daughters of Zelophehad were approved to recieve inheritence was because their father died without a male heir....Moses agreed that Zelophehad should not be deprived of an inheritence and so he approved of the daughters request. But do you know why he also imposed a condition on the daughters that they could never marry an isrealite from one of the other tribes?

The reason he did that was so that Zelophehads inheritence would not pass to another tribe thru a 'male' offspring. So you see, daughters in general did not recieve inheritences....all inheritence was passed only to males. This instance was an exception to the rule sand it was not for the benefit of the daughters....it was for the benefit of their father.

Pegg.....Did Zedekiah have any male heirs left? :huh: No. ;) Just as Zelophehads...no male heirs so the inheritance went to the daughters.

I showed you from the Hebrew Interlinear that the word used was indeed 'twig' and not 'rod' as the KJV uses. If that is not enough evidence for you to believe that Jesus is the twig of the stump of Jesse, then i cant do anymore with this subject. I admit that its an intersesting speculation but as it cannot be supported in scripture, then thats where it stops with me. If we uphold the writings of men over the writings inspired by Gods holy spirit, then we are doing ourselves a great injustice.

God is the source of our truth. Outside sources are good only for confirming things we may not understand about the original languages and things to do with customs and the historical aspects of the people of Isreal....but im afraid that the idea that Jeremiah took the daughters of Zedekiah to Scotland has no evidence to support it. Show me in the bible where Jeremiah gets on a boat with 2 girls and travels over seas....its simply not there, is it.

God is the source of truth and God told us the sceptre would not pass from Judah. It didn't for it continued through the daughters.

I will again ask....as you believe the "twig" in the Ezekiel prophecy was Christ, then.....you must reconcile the questions it raises....

Ezekiel 17:22-24 Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will also take of the highest branch of the high cedar, and will set it; I will crop off from the top of his young twigs a tender one, and will plant it upon an high mountain and eminent: In the mountain of the height of Israel will I plant it: and it shall bring forth boughs, and bear fruit, and be a goodly cedar: and under it shall dwell all fowl of every wing; in the shadow of the branches thereof shall they dwell. And all the trees of the field shall know that I the LORD have brought down the high tree, have exalted the low tree, have dried up the green tree, and have made the dry tree to flourish: I the LORD have spoken and have done it.​

God will take the highest branch of the high cedar...... Who is that? How would that apply to Christ?
This high cedar had young twigs........ Who is that? How would that apply to Christ?
The Lord brought down the high tree....... Who is that? How would that apply to Christ?
He exalted the low tree........ Who is that? How would that apply to Christ?


If you say the highest branch of the high cedar was Christ the branch from God, then God would be the high cedar. Then who are the "young twigs" the "tender one" was from? If the passage was about Christ and God, God being the "high tree," then how do you reckon that "the Lord have brought down the high tree?"​

It isn't that anyone is having an issue with the word "twig" but rather the issue is to whom it applies. It cannot apply to Christ.

 

[skyangel]

I will again ask....as you believe the "twig" in the Ezekiel prophecy was Christ, then.....you must reconcile the questions it raises....

Ezekiel 17:22-24 Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will also take of the highest branch of the high cedar, and will set it; I will crop off from the top of his young twigs a tender one, and will plant it upon an high mountain and eminent: In the mountain of the height of Israel will I plant it: and it shall bring forth boughs, and bear fruit, and be a goodly cedar: and under it shall dwell all fowl of every wing; in the shadow of the branches thereof shall they dwell. And all the trees of the field shall know that I the LORD have brought down the high tree, have exalted the low tree, have dried up the green tree, and have made the dry tree to flourish: I the LORD have spoken and have done it.​

God will take the highest branch of the high cedar...... Who is that? How would that apply to Christ?
This high cedar had young twigs........ Who is that? How would that apply to Christ?
The Lord brought down the high tree....... Who is that? How would that apply to Christ?
He exalted the low tree........ Who is that? How would that apply to Christ?


If you say the highest branch of the high cedar was Christ the branch from God, then God would be the high cedar. Then who are the "young twigs" the "tender one" was from? If the passage was about Christ and God, God being the "high tree," then how do you reckon that "the Lord have brought down the high tree?"​

It isn't that anyone is having an issue with the word "twig" but rather the issue is to whom it applies. It cannot apply to Christ.

The riddle is explained in Ezekiel 17. You need to read the whole chapter to see it.. It is a parable about Jesus and the church. It is the same as the parable about the vine and the branches.


God will take the highest branch of the high cedar...... Who is that?
The cedar represents the righteous. Those in Christ are the righteous in the righteous ONE.
Psalm 92:12 The righteous shall flourish like the palm tree: he shall grow like a cedar in Lebanon.

This high cedar had young twigs........ Who is that?
The young twigs on a cedar tree = the branches on a vine.
John 15:5 am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

The Lord brought down the high tree....... Who is that? It is the branches who were cut off.
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.

He exalted the low tree........ Who is that? It is the branches who were grafted back in.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be graffed into their own olive tree?

The branches are cut off and others are grafted in. ( Rom 11)

Luke 1:52 He hath put down the mighty from [their] seats, and exalted them of low degree.

Luke 14:11 For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Matt 23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

Psalm 75:10 All the horns of the wicked also will I cut off; [but] the horns of the righteous shall be exalted.

Psalm 89:16 In thy name shall they rejoice all the day: and in thy righteousness shall they be exalted

 

[brionne]

Pegg.....Did Zedekiah have any male heirs left? :huh: No. ;) Just as Zelophehads...no male heirs so the inheritance went to the daughters.

the only inheritance any of the children of Zedekiah were going to receive was calamity and destruction as Jeremiah warned

Jeremiah 24:8-10 “So I shall give Zed‧e‧ki′ah the king of Judah and his princes and the remnant of Jerusalem who are remaining over in this land and those who are dwelling in the land of Egypt— 9 I will also give them over for quaking, for calamity, in all the kingdoms of the earth, for reproach and for a proverbial saying, for a taunt and for a malediction, in all the places to which I shall disperse them. 10 And I will send against them the sword, the famine and the pestilence, until they come to their finish off the ground that I gave to them and to their forefathers.”’”

God is the source of truth and God told us the sceptre would not pass from Judah. It didn't for it continued through the daughters.

I will again ask....as you believe the "twig" in the Ezekiel prophecy was Christ, then.....you must reconcile the questions it raises....

Ezekiel 17:22-24 Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will also take of the highest branch of the high cedar, and will set it; I will crop off from the top of his young twigs a tender one, and will plant it upon an high mountain and eminent: In the mountain of the height of Israel will I plant it: and it shall bring forth boughs, and bear fruit, and be a goodly cedar: and under it shall dwell all fowl of every wing; in the shadow of the branches thereof shall they dwell. And all the trees of the field shall know that I the LORD have brought down the high tree, have exalted the low tree, have dried up the green tree, and have made the dry tree to flourish: I the LORD have spoken and have done it.​

God will take the highest branch of the high cedar...... Who is that? How would that apply to Christ?
This high cedar had young twigs........ Who is that? How would that apply to Christ?
The Lord brought down the high tree....... Who is that? How would that apply to Christ?
He exalted the low tree........ Who is that? How would that apply to Christ?


If you say the highest branch of the high cedar was Christ the branch from God, then God would be the high cedar. Then who are the "young twigs" the "tender one" was from? If the passage was about Christ and God, God being the "high tree," then how do you reckon that "the Lord have brought down the high tree?"​

It isn't that anyone is having an issue with the word "twig" but rather the issue is to whom it applies. It cannot apply to Christ.

First of all, look at all these different translations. Notice that none of them translate it as 'HIS YOUNG TWIGS' they translate it as 'IT'S YOUNG TWIGS' or 'ITS TENDER SHOOTS'
You are using a King James translation and its pretty much the only translation to use the term 'HIS'. The reason why these translations do not use the word 'HIS' is because the verse is speaking about a symbolic tree...not a person...not zedekiah. The tree symbolized the rulership of God which the throne of David physically represented.


NAS [sup]22[/sup]Thus says the Lord GOD, "I will also take a sprig from the lofty top of the cedar and set it out; I will pluck from the topmost of its young twigs a tender one and I will plant it on a high and lofty mountain.

ESV [sup]22[/sup]Thus says the Lord GOD: "I myself will take a sprig from the lofty top of the cedar and will set it out. I will break off from the topmost of its young twigs a tender one, and[sup] [/sup]I myself will plant it on a high and lofty mountain.

NIV [sup]22[/sup] " 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I myself will take a shoot from the very top of a cedar and plant it; I will break off a tender sprig from its topmost shoots and plant it on a high and lofty mountain.

NIV-UK [sup]22[/sup] 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I myself will take a shoot from the very top of a cedar and plant it; I will break off a tender sprig from its topmost shoots and plant it on a high and lofty mountain.

The Message [sup]22-24[/sup] "'God, the Master, says, I personally will take a shoot from the top of the towering cedar, a cutting from the crown of the tree, and plant it on a high and towering mountain, on the high mountain of Israel.

Youngs Literal [sup]22[/sup]Thus said the Lord Jehovah: I have taken of the foliage of the high cedar, And I have set [it], From the top of its tender shoots a tender one I crop, And I -- I have planted [it] on a mountain high and lofty.

Holman [sup]22[/sup] This is what the Lord GOD says: I will take [a sprig] from the lofty top of the cedar and plant [it]. I will pluck a tender sprig from its topmost shoots,
and I will plant [it] on a high towering mountain.

TNIV [sup]22[/sup] " 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I myself will take a shoot from the very top of a cedar and plant it; I will break off a tender sprig from its topmost shoots and plant it on a high and lofty mountain

NWT “‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: “I myself will also take and put some of the lofty treetop of the cedar; from the top of its twigs I shall pluck off a tender one and I will myself transplant [it] upon a high and lofty mountain"


So to answer your questions:
God will take the highest branch of the high cedar...... Who is that?
The high cedar is the throne of David...its the throne representing Gods rulership which was high and lofty.

This high cedar had young twigs........ Who is that? How would that apply to Christ?
the twigs were all those who had a legal right to the throne...they are the many sons from the family line of David...not one single individual but many in the family line of David. It applies to Christ in that he was also of the line of David like many who went before him and had a legal right to the throne of David.
The Lord brought down the high tree....... Who is that?
the tree was brought down when the last (Zedekiah) was removed and Judah along with Solomons Temple where the throne was located was destroyed. It was brought down in the sense that there was no king reigning in Judah...no one was sitting on Gods throne for 70 years while the nation was in exile.
He exalted the low tree........ Who is that? How would that apply to Christ?
Jesus was the low tree...Isaiah prophesied in Isaiah 53:2 "And he will come up like a twig before one, and like a root out of waterless land. No stately form does he have, nor any splendor; and when we shall see him, there is not the appearance so that we should desire him" It applies to Jesus because to the jews who saw Jesus he was a 'lowly one without any stately form' He was a carpenter from a poor family...no one wanted such a man to be their king and they held him of little account because of that. But God exulted Jesus to sit at his right hand and rule from his own throne which is situated in heaven.

 

[brionne]

The riddle is explained in Ezekiel 17. You need to read the whole chapter to see it.. It is a parable about Jesus and the church. It is the same as the parable about the vine and the branches.


God will take the highest branch of the high cedar...... Who is that?
The cedar represents the righteous. Those in Christ are the righteous in the righteous ONE.
Psalm 92:12 The righteous shall flourish like the palm tree: he shall grow like a cedar in Lebanon.

This high cedar had young twigs........ Who is that?
The young twigs on a cedar tree = the branches on a vine.
John 15:5 am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

The Lord brought down the high tree....... Who is that? It is the branches who were cut off.
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.

He exalted the low tree........ Who is that? It is the branches who were grafted back in.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be graffed into their own olive tree?

The branches are cut off and others are grafted in. ( Rom 11)

Luke 1:52 He hath put down the mighty from [their] seats, and exalted them of low degree.

Luke 14:11 For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Matt 23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

Psalm 75:10 All the horns of the wicked also will I cut off; [but] the horns of the righteous shall be exalted.

Psalm 89:16 In thy name shall they rejoice all the day: and in thy righteousness shall they be exalted

You've done well in taking the application further then the physical kingdom of Judah, which is the aspect that i have shown. I hope that Whirlwind will see that it has both a literal fulfillment and a wider spiritual fulfillment in Christs role as the messiah.

 

[whirlwind]

The riddle is explained in Ezekiel 17. You need to read the whole chapter to see it.. It is a parable about Jesus and the church. It is the same as the parable about the vine and the branches.


God will take the highest branch of the high cedar...... Who is that?
The cedar represents the righteous. Those in Christ are the righteous in the righteous ONE.
Psalm 92:12 The righteous shall flourish like the palm tree: he shall grow like a cedar in Lebanon.

No. The riddle is about going into captivity in which the "high cedar" refers to the subject of the passages. The same "high cedar" that is " brought down ! As the verse you chose points out..."the righteous flourish," they are not "brought down" so the high cedar does NOT refer to the righteous. "And all the trees of the field shall know that I the LORD have brought down the high tree..." [17:24]

This high cedar had young twigs........ Who is that?
The young twigs on a cedar tree = the branches on a vine.
John 15:5 am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

If Christ was being referred to as the young twigs (twigs plural) taken from the high cedar then the high cedar would be God. Was God brought down by God as this high cedar was? If Christ was the twig then who were the other young twigs on the same level as Christ from the cedar? Christ was the vine....He was not a twig.

The Lord brought down the high tree....... Who is that? It is the branches who were cut off.
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.

Those verses are references to the Gentiles and Israel, the wild olive and the natural olive. Allow me to quote it with the preceeding verse for therein we gain understanding....

Romans 11:20-21 Well, because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith, Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest He also spare not thee.​

Through unbelief the natural branches were broken off....the natural branches being those of Israel....not Christ.

He exalted the low tree........ Who is that?

It is the branches who were grafted back in.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be graffed into their own olive tree?

The branches are cut off and others are grafted in. ( Rom 11)

Luke 1:52 He hath put down the mighty from [their] seats, and exalted them of low degree.

Luke 14:11 For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Matt 23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

Psalm 75:10 All the horns of the wicked also will I cut off; [but] the horns of the righteous shall be exalted.

Psalm 89:16 In thy name shall they rejoice all the day: and in thy righteousness shall they be exalted

The righteous are exalted. The wicked are cut off but this has nothing to do with the twigs. :)

 

[whirlwind]

the only inheritance any of the children of Zedekiah were going to receive was calamity and destruction as Jeremiah warned

Jeremiah 24:8-10 “So I shall give Zed‧e‧ki′ah the king of Judah and his princes and the remnant of Jerusalem who are remaining over in this land and those who are dwelling in the land of Egypt— 9 I will also give them over for quaking, for calamity, in all the kingdoms of the earth, for reproach and for a proverbial saying, for a taunt and for a malediction, in all the places to which I shall disperse them. 10 And I will send against them the sword, the famine and the pestilence, until they come to their finish off the ground that I gave to them and to their forefathers.”’”

Pegg, you should begin those verses with the preceeding ones. Only then do we get understanding. This was about the good and the evil figs. For some reason, in the quote you gave above..."evil figs" wasn't included. I don't know if you meant to omit it or if your Bible has omitted it. If it has that is just another of the reasons I only use the King James. Allow me to give you a bigger picture in the Words of the Lord....

Jeremiah 24:5-7 "Thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel; 'Like these good figs, so will I acknowledge them that are carried away captive of Judah, whom I have sent out of this place into the land of the Chaldeans for their good. For I will set Mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land: and I will build them, and not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up. And I will give them an heart to know Me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be My People, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto Me with their whole heart.

24:8-10 And as the evil figs, which cannot be eaten, they are so evil; surely thus saith the LORD, So will I give Zedekiah the king of Judah, and his princes, and the residue of Jerusalem, that remain in this land, and them that dwell in the land of Egypt: And I will deliver them to be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth for their hurt, to be a reproach and a proverb, a taunt and a curse, in all places whither I shall drive them. And I will send the sword, the famine, and the pestilence, among them, till they be consumed from off the land that I gave unto them and to their fathers.​

The good figs were carried away (which included Zedekiah's daughters) while the evil figs "remained in this land." Seeing that we understand that the inheritance of Zedekiah wasn't included in the calamity and destruction.

First of all, look at all these different translations. Notice that none of them translate it as 'HIS YOUNG TWIGS' they translate it as 'IT'S YOUNG TWIGS' or 'ITS TENDER SHOOTS'
You are using a King James translation and its pretty much the only translation to use the term 'HIS'. The reason why these translations do not use the word 'HIS' is because the verse is speaking about a symbolic tree...not a person...not zedekiah. The tree symbolized the rulership of God which the throne of David physically represented.


NAS [sup]22[/sup]Thus says the Lord GOD, "I will also take a sprig from the lofty top of the cedar and set it out; I will pluck from the topmost of its young twigs a tender one and I will plant it on a high and lofty mountain.

ESV [sup]22[/sup]Thus says the Lord GOD: "I myself will take a sprig from the lofty top of the cedar and will set it out. I will break off from the topmost of its young twigs a tender one, and[sup] [/sup]I myself will plant it on a high and lofty mountain.

NIV [sup]22[/sup] " 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I myself will take a shoot from the very top of a cedar and plant it; I will break off a tender sprig from its topmost shoots and plant it on a high and lofty mountain.

NIV-UK [sup]22[/sup] 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I myself will take a shoot from the very top of a cedar and plant it; I will break off a tender sprig from its topmost shoots and plant it on a high and lofty mountain.

The Message [sup]22-24[/sup] "'God, the Master, says, I personally will take a shoot from the top of the towering cedar, a cutting from the crown of the tree, and plant it on a high and towering mountain, on the high mountain of Israel.

Youngs Literal [sup]22[/sup]Thus said the Lord Jehovah: I have taken of the foliage of the high cedar, And I have set [it], From the top of its tender shoots a tender one I crop, And I -- I have planted [it] on a mountain high and lofty.

Holman [sup]22[/sup] This is what the Lord GOD says: I will take [a sprig] from the lofty top of the cedar and plant [it]. I will pluck a tender sprig from its topmost shoots,
and I will plant [it] on a high towering mountain.

TNIV [sup]22[/sup] " 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I myself will take a shoot from the very top of a cedar and plant it; I will break off a tender sprig from its topmost shoots and plant it on a high and lofty mountain

NWT “‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: “I myself will also take and put some of the lofty treetop of the cedar; from the top of its twigs I shall pluck off a tender one and I will myself transplant [it] upon a high and lofty mountain"

I'll stick with the King James. :) However, even if the correct translation was "it's twigs" and not his twigs you would still need to reconcile the high cedar, which would have to be God if the twig was Christ, being "brought down" by God. And, God is not a high cedar. You would also still have to reconcile Jesus being one of the twig(s). There was only One begotten Son of God. Who are the other "twigs?"

So to answer your questions:
God will take the highest branch of the high cedar...... Who is that?
The high cedar is the throne of David...its the throne representing Gods rulership which was high and lofty.

If the high cedar was the throne then God broke His promise about the sceptre not departing from Judah for the "high cedar" was brought down!

This high cedar had young twigs........ Who is that? How would that apply to Christ?
the twigs were all those who had a legal right to the throne...they are the many sons from the family line of David...not one single individual but many in the family line of David. It applies to Christ in that he was also of the line of David like many who went before him and had a legal right to the throne of David.

That is a thoughtful answer but as God tells us, the "sceptre will not depart from Judah." How many years, centuries, were there between the demise of Zedekiah and the Advent of Christ? The sceptre never departed as Zedekiah's daughters carried it to Scotland.

The Lord brought down the high tree....... Who is that?
the tree was brought down when the last (Zedekiah) was removed and Judah along with Solomons Temple where the throne was located was destroyed. It was brought down in the sense that there was no king reigning in Judah...no one was sitting on Gods throne for 70 years while the nation was in exile.
He exalted the low tree........ Who is that? How would that apply to Christ?
Jesus was the low tree...Isaiah prophesied in Isaiah 53:2 "And he will come up like a twig before one, and like a root out of waterless land. No stately form does he have, nor any splendor; and when we shall see him, there is not the appearance so that we should desire him" It applies to Jesus because to the jews who saw Jesus he was a 'lowly one without any stately form' He was a carpenter from a poor family...no one wanted such a man to be their king and they held him of little account because of that. But God exulted Jesus to sit at his right hand and rule from his own throne which is situated in heaven.

Trees are symbolic of people...not thrones. Olive trees, palm trees, etc are all....people. The "high cedar" was Zedekiah...not his throne.

 

[brionne]

This was about the good and the evil figs.

Jeremiah 24:5-7 "Thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel; 'Like these good figs, so will I acknowledge them that are carried away captive of Judah, whom I have sent out of this place into the land of the Chaldeans for their good. For I will set Mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land: and I will build them, and not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up. And I will give them an heart to know Me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be My People, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto Me with their whole heart.

24:8-10 And as the evil figs, which cannot be eaten, they are so evil; surely thus saith the LORD, So will I give Zedekiah the king of Judah, and his princes, and the residue of Jerusalem, that remain in this land, and them that dwell in the land of Egypt: And I will deliver them to be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth for their hurt, to be a reproach and a proverb, a taunt and a curse, in all places whither I shall drive them. And I will send the sword, the famine, and the pestilence, among them, till they be consumed from off the land that I gave unto them and to their fathers.

The good figs were carried away (which included Zedekiah's daughters) while the evil figs "remained in this land." Seeing that we understand that the inheritance of Zedekiah wasn't included in the calamity and destruction.​

​

I think you have it back to front. The evil figs were the ones who disobeyed God and went to egypt...the good figs were the ones carried away into captivity to Babylon.

Whereas, God preserved those who remained faithful to him by having them carried captive into Babylon...they were the jews who were later released from Babylon and were able to go back and rebuild Jerusalem. But the ones who proved unfaithful and sought the help of Egypt, never returned, instead they received the above stated punishment of death and calamity.

Jeremiah 42:15-16 “If YOU yourselves positively set YOUR faces to enter into Egypt and YOU actually enter in to reside there as aliens, 16 it must also occur that the very sword of which YOU are afraid will there catch up with YOU in the land of Egypt... But the people did not listen to Jeremiah, instead they chose to gather up the remnant of survivors and go to egypt....including the kings daughters according to Jeremiah 43:5-7 " they took all the remnant of Judah that had returned from all the nations to which they had been dispersed,...6 even the able-bodied men and the wives and the little children and the daughters of the king ...7 And they finally came into the land of Egypt"

I'll stick with the King James. :) However, even if the correct translation was "it's twigs" and not his twigs you would still need to reconcile the high cedar, which would have to be God if the twig was Christ, being "brought down" by God. And, God is not a high cedar. You would also still have to reconcile Jesus being one of the twig(s). There was only One begotten Son of God. Who are the other "twigs?"

the cedar was the throne representing Gods rulership. The prophecy of Daniel speaks of the tree as representing Gods rulership on earth...its lofty because God is lofty and his rulership is above all others.

If the high cedar was the throne then God broke His promise about the sceptre not departing from Judah for the "high cedar" was brought down!

the promise wasnt broken because God spoke thru Ezekiel that there would be a period of time when no one would sit on the throne...that does not mean that the scepter turned aside from Judah.... Jesus was born into the tribe of Judah and he was the next one to be given the throne of David... so the scepter did not turn aside from the tribe of Judah. Mary and Joseph were of that tribe and Jesus was their son.

 

[whirlwind]

[/indent]I think you have it back to front. The evil figs were the ones who disobeyed God and went to egypt...the good figs were the ones carried away into captivity to Babylon.

Whereas, God preserved those who remained faithful to him by having them carried captive into Babylon...they were the jews who were later released from Babylon and were able to go back and rebuild Jerusalem. But the ones who proved unfaithful and sought the help of Egypt, never returned, instead they received the above stated punishment of death and calamity.

Jeremiah 42:15-16 “If YOU yourselves positively set YOUR faces to enter into Egypt and YOU actually enter in to reside there as aliens, 16 it must also occur that the very sword of which YOU are afraid will there catch up with YOU in the land of Egypt... But the people did not listen to Jeremiah, instead they chose to gather up the remnant of survivors and go to egypt....including the kings daughters according to Jeremiah 43:5-7 " they took all the remnant of Judah that had returned from all the nations to which they had been dispersed,...6 even the able-bodied men and the wives and the little children and the daughters of the king ...7 And they finally came into the land of Egypt"

You must explain how I have it backwards when I quoted the verses saying the good figs were carried away to Babylon.

In [Jeremiah 42] he is addressing the evil figs. They told Jeremiah he was lying [43:2]. So...they TOOK the remnant, which included the king's daughters along with Jeremiah and his scribe Baruch to Egypt.

the cedar was the throne representing Gods rulership. The prophecy of Daniel speaks of the tree as representing Gods rulership on earth...its lofty because God is lofty and his rulership is above all others.

Please provide scripture.

the promise wasnt broken because God spoke thru Ezekiel that there would be a period of time when no one would sit on the throne...that does not mean that the scepter turned aside from Judah.... Jesus was born into the tribe of Judah and he was the next one to be given the throne of David... so the scepter did not turn aside from the tribe of Judah. Mary and Joseph were of that tribe and Jesus was their son.

Please provide scripture.

 

[skyangel]

No. The riddle is about going into captivity in which the "high cedar" refers to the subject of the passages. The same "high cedar" that is " brought down ! As the verse you chose points out..."the righteous flourish," they are not "brought down" so the high cedar does NOT refer to the righteous. "And all the trees of the field shall know that I the LORD have brought down the high tree..." [17:24]

Did Jesus not leave His "high place" and came from heaven to earth to become sin so we can become the righteousness of God in Him ?

2 Cor 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

If Christ was being referred to as the young twigs (twigs plural) taken from the high cedar then the high cedar would be God. Was God brought down by God as this high cedar was? If Christ was the twig then who were the other young twigs on the same level as Christ from the cedar? Christ was the vine....He was not a twig.

"God" brought down by "God" = The Father sending His son to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood.
We are the twigs. We are the branches. We are the children of God.

The word ( yowneqeth ) translated as " His young twigs' is exactly the same word which has been translated as "branches" in Hosea14:6, Job 15:30, Psalm 80:11,

Jesus said we are the branches.
John 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches:

Those verses are references to the Gentiles and Israel, the wild olive and the natural olive. Allow me to quote it with the preceeding verse for therein we gain understanding....

Romans 11:20-21 Well, because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith, Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest He also spare not thee.​

Through unbelief the natural branches were broken off....the natural branches being those of Israel....not Christ.

The righteous are exalted. The wicked are cut off but this has nothing to do with the twigs. :)

Why Not? The children of God sinned in the beginning and were "cut off" from their relationship with the Father. or "thrown out of heaven" then restored by Jesus.

Read the whole chapter prayerfully and carefully and ask the Lord to show you the answer to the riddle or parable. It is a spiritual parable about Jesus and the church ( the children of God ) It is the story of salvation and restoration.

 

[brionne]

You must explain how I have it backwards when I quoted the verses saying the good figs were carried away to Babylon.

In [Jeremiah 42] he is addressing the evil figs. They told Jeremiah he was lying [43:2]. So...they TOOK the remnant, which included the king's daughters along with Jeremiah and his scribe Baruch to Egypt.

The good figs went to Babylon into exile. But they did not include the kings daughters, did they.

The remnant who were left over in judah were told by God to stay there and he would protect them, but they did not listen and decided to go over to Egypt and seek protection over there...these are the ones called the 'bad figs'

Jeremiah 24:4 ‘Like these good figs, so I shall regard the exiles of Judah, whom I will send away from this place to the land of the Chal‧de′ans, in a good way. 6 And I will set my eye upon them in a good way, and I shall certainly cause them to return to this land.

Vs 8: ‘And like the bad figs that cannot be eaten for badness...“So I shall give Zed‧e‧ki′ah the king of Judah and his princes and the remnant of Jerusalem who are remaining over in this land and those who are dwelling in the land of Egypt— 9 I will also give them over for quaking, for calamity, in all the kingdoms of the earth, for reproach...10 And I will send against them the sword...until they come to their finish off the ground....”

Now who were the bad figs who went off to egypt?

Jeremiah 43:5 "Jo‧ha′nan the son of Ka‧re′ah and all the chiefs of the military forces took all the remnant of Judah that had returned from all the nations to which they had been dispersed...6 even the able-bodied men and the wives and the little children and the daughters of the king ...7 And they finally came into the land of Egypt"

So if God had decided not to let any of these ones live, how is it possible that the 'daughters of the king' were permitted to survive? Whoever went to Egypt did so in disobedience and therefore recieved no protection from God but rather he said he would bring them the sword and calamity until they were 'finished'.



The tree representing Gods rulership is found in Daniel chpt 4. God gave the Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar a vision about an immense tree which Daniel explained for him. This was after Babylon had destroyed Judah and Nebuchadnezzar was the king ruling in place of a Judean king....it was as if Nebuchadnezzar was ruling in place of God. The vision describes how God would soon remove the kingdom from Nebuchadnezzar and give it to someone else.


4 “Neb‧u‧chad‧nez′zar the king, to all the peoples, national groups and languages that are dwelling in all the earth: May YOUR peace grow great. 2 The signs and wonders that the Most High God has performed with me, it has seemed good to me to declare. 3 How grand his signs are, and how mighty his wonders are! His kingdom is a kingdom to time indefinite, and his rulership is for generation after generation...
10 “‘Now the visions of my head upon my bed I happened to be beholding, and, look! a tree in the midst of the earth, the height of which was immense. 11 The tree grew up and became strong, and its very height finally reached the heavens, and it was visible to the extremity of the whole earth...13 “‘I continued beholding in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, look! a watcher, even a holy one, coming down from the heavens themselves. 14 He was calling out loudly, and this is what he was saying: “CHOP the tree down, and cut off its boughs. SHAKE off its foliage, and scatter its fruitage. Let the beast flee from under it, and the birds from its boughs. 15 However, LEAVE its rootstock itself in the earth...to the intent that people living may know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind and that to the one whom he wants to, he gives it and he sets up over it even the lowliest one of mankind.




the second scripture is from Ezekiel. “Remove the turban, and lift off the crown. This will not be the same. Put on high even what is low, and bring low even the high one. A ruin, a ruin, a ruin I shall make it. As for this also, it will certainly become no one’s until he comes who has the legal right [Jesus Christ], and I must give it to him.”—Ezekiel 21:26, 27.


Both scriptures describe the situation that was to occur. Daniels prophecy shows that God would take the rulership from Nebuchadnezzar and give it to the 'lowliest of mankind' at a future time.
and Ezekiel describes the time when Judah was in exile in Babylon under king Nebuchadnezzar and the line of kings was interrupted and was not to become anyone's 'until he comes who has the legal right'

 

[whirlwind]

Did Jesus not leave His "high place" and came from heaven to earth to become sin so we can become the righteousness of God in Him ?

2 Cor 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

You said....the cedar represents the righteous. I said it can't be for the cedar is brought down. As you pointed out in the verse you quoted.....God tells us "the righteous shall flourish." Being brought down and flourishing are two different things.

So...certainly Jesus left His high place but that isn't what the passage refers to. Biblical trees refer to men. The cedars, and there are some good and some bad cedars, are men in the house of the Lord. Christ was The Tree of Life...the only One. He was not one of the cedars.

"God" brought down by "God" = The Father sending His son to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood.
We are the twigs. We are the branches. We are the children of God.

The word ( yowneqeth ) translated as " His young twigs' is exactly the same word which has been translated as "branches" in Hosea14:6, Job 15:30, Psalm 80:11,

Jesus said we are the branches.
John 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches:

We are not in the verse. We are not the twigs being referred to. Christ was not the twig being referred to. He is NOT one twig among young twigs.

Why Not? The children of God sinned in the beginning and were "cut off" from their relationship with the Father. or "thrown out of heaven" then restored by Jesus.

Read the whole chapter prayerfully and carefully and ask the Lord to show you the answer to the riddle or parable. It is a spiritual parable about Jesus and the church ( the children of God ) It is the story of salvation and restoration.

You are mistaken.

 

[whirlwind]

The good figs went to Babylon into exile. But they did not include the kings daughters, did they.

The remnant who were left over in judah were told by God to stay there and he would protect them, but they did not listen and decided to go over to Egypt and seek protection over there...these are the ones called the 'bad figs'

Jeremiah 24:4 ‘Like these good figs, so I shall regard the exiles of Judah, whom I will send away from this place to the land of the Chal‧de′ans, in a good way. 6 And I will set my eye upon them in a good way, and I shall certainly cause them to return to this land.

Vs 8: ‘And like the bad figs that cannot be eaten for badness...“So I shall give Zed‧e‧ki′ah the king of Judah and his princes and the remnant of Jerusalem who are remaining over in this land and those who are dwelling in the land of Egypt— 9 I will also give them over for quaking, for calamity, in all the kingdoms of the earth, for reproach...10 And I will send against them the sword...until they come to their finish off the ground....”

Now who were the bad figs who went off to egypt?

Jeremiah 43:5 "Jo‧ha′nan the son of Ka‧re′ah and all the chiefs of the military forces took all the remnant of Judah that had returned from all the nations to which they had been dispersed...6 even the able-bodied men and the wives and the little children and the daughters of the king ...7 And they finally came into the land of Egypt"

So if God had decided not to let any of these ones live, how is it possible that the 'daughters of the king' were permitted to survive? Whoever went to Egypt did so in disobedience and therefore recieved no protection from God but rather he said he would bring them the sword and calamity until they were 'finished'.

They were TAKEN to Egypt. Those TAKEN included the king's daughters and Jeremiah. They didn't want to go to Egypt...after all it was Jeremiah telling them they shouldn't go. He was TAKEN as were the king's daughters. That is why they were permitted to live.

Consider.....

Jeremiah 42:15-17 And now therefore hear the word of the LORD, ye remnant of Judah; Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; If ye wholly set your faces to enter into Egypt, and go to sojourn there; Then it shall come to pass, that the sword, which ye feared, shall overtake you there in the land of Egypt, and the famine, whereof ye were afraid, shall follow close after you there in Egypt; and there ye shall die. So shall it be with all the men that set their faces to go into Egypt to sojourn there:.....(snip)​

The faces of Jeremiah and the king's daughters weren't "set" to go into Egypt. They were TAKEN there.

The tree representing Gods rulership is found in Daniel chpt 4. God gave the Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar a vision about an immense tree which Daniel explained for him. This was after Babylon had destroyed Judah and Nebuchadnezzar was the king ruling in place of a Judean king....it was as if Nebuchadnezzar was ruling in place of God. The vision describes how God would soon remove the kingdom from Nebuchadnezzar and give it to someone else.


4 “Neb‧u‧chad‧nez′zar the king, to all the peoples, national groups and languages that are dwelling in all the earth: May YOUR peace grow great. 2 The signs and wonders that the Most High God has performed with me, it has seemed good to me to declare. 3 How grand his signs are, and how mighty his wonders are! His kingdom is a kingdom to time indefinite, and his rulership is for generation after generation...
10 “‘Now the visions of my head upon my bed I happened to be beholding, and, look! a tree in the midst of the earth, the height of which was immense. 11 The tree grew up and became strong, and its very height finally reached the heavens, and it was visible to the extremity of the whole earth...13 “‘I continued beholding in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, look! a watcher, even a holy one, coming down from the heavens themselves. 14 He was calling out loudly, and this is what he was saying: “CHOP the tree down, and cut off its boughs. SHAKE off its foliage, and scatter its fruitage. Let the beast flee from under it, and the birds from its boughs. 15 However, LEAVE its rootstock itself in the earth...to the intent that people living may know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind and that to the one whom he wants to, he gives it and he sets up over it even the lowliest one of mankind.

The tree mentioned in Daniel is NOT God's rulership. Quite the opposite!

the second scripture is from Ezekiel. “Remove the turban, and lift off the crown. This will not be the same. Put on high even what is low, and bring low even the high one. A ruin, a ruin, a ruin I shall make it. As for this also, it will certainly become no one’s until he comes who has the legal right [Jesus Christ], and I must give it to him.”—Ezekiel 21:26, 27.


Both scriptures describe the situation that was to occur. Daniels prophecy shows that God would take the rulership from Nebuchadnezzar and give it to the 'lowliest of mankind' at a future time.
and Ezekiel describes the time when Judah was in exile in Babylon under king Nebuchadnezzar and the line of kings was interrupted and was not to become anyone's 'until he comes who has the legal right'

You are mistaken Pegg.

 

[skyangel]

You said....the cedar represents the righteous. I said it can't be for the cedar is brought down. As you pointed out in the verse you quoted.....God tells us "the righteous shall flourish." Being brought down and flourishing are two different things.

So...certainly Jesus left His high place but that isn't what the passage refers to. Biblical trees refer to men. The cedars, and there are some good and some bad cedars, are men in the house of the Lord. Christ was The Tree of Life...the only One. He was not one of the cedars.

Jesus is the righteous man who was brought low and made sin. How much lower can you get?

The flourishing comes after the dying.
The corn of wheat must die before it bears fruit.

We are not in the verse. We are not the twigs being referred to. Christ was not the twig being referred to. He is NOT one twig among young twigs.

Jesus is the first among many brethren.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

 

[brionne]

You are mistaken Pegg.

you need to show me from scripture why i'm mistaken

 

[whirlwind]

you need to show me from scripture why i'm mistaken

You said....

The tree representing Gods rulership is found in Daniel chpt 4. God gave the Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar a vision about an immense tree which Daniel explained for him. This was after Babylon had destroyed Judah and Nebuchadnezzar was the king ruling in place of a Judean king....it was as if Nebuchadnezzar was ruling in place of God. The vision describes how God would soon remove the kingdom from Nebuchadnezzar and give it to someone else.

God tells us....

Daniel 4:20-22 The tree that thou sawest, which grew, and was strong, whose height reached unto the heaven, and the sight therof to all the earth; Whose leaves were fair, and the fruit therof much, and in it was meat for all; under which the beasts of the field dwelt, and upon whose branches the fowls of the heaven had their habitation: It is thou, O king, that art grown and become strong: for thy greatness is grown, and reacheth unto heaven, and thy dominion to the end of the earth.​

The rulership of the king of Babylon is NOT the rulership of God. The king of Babylon represents Satan. It is his tree that grows so well, pretending to be so fair, under which beasts and fowls stay. They aren't the good guys!

Jesus is the righteous man who was brought low and made sin. How much lower can you get?

The flourishing comes after the dying.
The corn of wheat must die before it bears fruit.





Jesus is the first among many brethren.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Dear Skyangel....believe as you wish. :)

 

[brionne]

You said....
God tells us....Daniel 4:20-22 The tree that thou sawest, which grew, and was strong, whose height reached unto the heaven, and the sight therof to all the earth; Whose leaves were fair, and the fruit therof much, and in it was meat for all; under which the beasts of the field dwelt, and upon whose branches the fowls of the heaven had their habitation: It is thou, O king, that art grown and become strong: for thy greatness is grown, and reacheth unto heaven, and thy dominion to the end of the earth.

The rulership of the king of Babylon is NOT the rulership of God. The king of Babylon represents Satan. It is his tree that grows so well, pretending to be so fair, under which beasts and fowls stay. They aren't the good guys!

I was talking about those who went into egypt...what is your scriptural reason to say I am mistaken that those who went to egypt were going in disobedience? They were the remnant left over...if you read the account fully you'll see that Nebuchudnezza had put Gedeliah in charge of those remaining over in Judah, but they killed Gedeliah and were then in fear of the reprisal from Babylon. So they asked Jeremiah for Gods assistence and direction. When God instructed them to remain in Judah and he would protect them, they didnt believe that Jeremiah was telling them the truth and so gathered the remaining ones up and they all went to Egypt together...the wives of the king and the men of Judah and the daughters...they all went along willingly...they were not forced to go.

At this God pronounced his anger at their disobedience and said that he would allow them to be taken by the sword of all the kingdoms around them. They were doomed...all of them. Jeremiah was an exception because he was telling them to stay in Judah as God had commanded.


Now with regard to the tree. You need to read further in the account to the point where Nebudcudnezz comes to realise that all rulerships belong to God....even his own kingdoms rulership

" 22 it is you, O king, because you have grown great and become strong, and your grandeur has grown great and reached to the heavens 24 this is the interpretation, O king, and the decree of the Most High is that ...you know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind, and that to the one whom he wants to he gives it. 26 “‘And because they said to leave the rootstock of the tree, your kingdom will be sure to you after you know that the heavens are ruling...34 “And at the end of the days I, Neb‧u‧chad‧nez′zar, lifted up to the heavens my eyes, and my own understanding began to return to me; and I blessed the Most High himself, and the One living to time indefinite I praised and glorified, because his rulership is a rulership to time indefinite and his kingdom is for generation after generation. 35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are being considered as merely nothing, and he is doing according to his own will among the army of the heavens and the inhabitants of the earth.


You see, all rulerships on this earth stand in their relative positions only because God allows them, if he wants to chop them down he can, if he wants to build them up he can because God is the ultimate authority no matter who is ruling the world. This tree was to show the king that the rulership really belonged to God. Notice also that God left the rootstock of the tree in the ground and put a band around it and said " to the one whom he wants to he gives it." God has the power to remove kings or to make kings... the one who was finally given the ultimate authority was in fact Jesus Christ who is now ruling from the throne of God situated in heaven.