Is pre-tribulation rapture a doctrine of demons?

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Just read your Bible, Barney.

You are intelligent enough to read and understand it without a magazine explaining it to you.

I cut all that extra Biblical stuff out myself several years ago and went cold turkey Sola Scriptura.

You, like I have been, will be shocked to find out which areas you have been duped in by the organization.

Try it, Barney...try it.

At first you will get the shakes, then cold chills, then the sweats and delirium, then the withdrawals will eventually subside and the Watchtower will be in the rear view mirror.

I'll continue to use the Bible and Bible dictionaries, Bible Encyclopedias, and magazines if that's my choice. Besides if I'm just going to read my Bible that would mean not listening to you and what you have to say about the Bible wouldn't it truther. So you're saying everyone should only read there Bible and not listen to you right? After all someone listening to you isn't only reading the Bible.

 

[marks]

So here is how I apply my interpretive method in this case. The origin of the 3.5 year period, mentioned in Revelation, is in Dan 7, where the Antichrist's Reign is being described. There is some confusion with a similar length of time being equated in the same book in connection with the reign of Antiochus 4. But basically, the 3.5 year time period comes from Dan 7 and Dan 12.7, all other 3.5 years periods largely relegated to the prophecy of Antiochus 4.

As my starting point I consider either of these prophecies separately and in their own right, and I want to make sure I know what I can about each individually, then then compare what I may find similar and different between them.

In this case, I find very specific time frames in the Revelation. I would not consider Daniel to be the origin of John's writing, rather, that this was the vision Jesus gave to John, and what it showed and taught him.

It sounds that you are suggesting we form a view of the times of Daniel, and then insist that view be imposed over the times shown in the Revelation.

Daniel 9:24-27
24) Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25) Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26) And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27) And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

In this part bolded is where I see Jesus crucified, after the 69 weeks, but before the 70th week. But I find Revelation to give more clear information about the timings of things at the end of the age.

Much love!

 

[Truther]

I'll continue to use the Bible and Bible dictionaries, Bible Encyclopedias, and magazines if that's my choice. Besides if I'm just going to read my Bible that would mean not listening to you and what you have to say about the Bible wouldn't it truther. So you're saying everyone should only read there Bible and not listen to you right? After all someone listening to you isn't only reading the Bible.

I'm gonna barf!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Is the Rapture of the Gentile Church at the Second Coming of Christ?

I suggest this would be impossible according to Scripture.

When Jesus returns, the "chosen" are gathered. After Jesus sits on His throne, the nations are gathered. Imagine you lived in that day when Jesus spoke these words. Imagine you are an Israelite, and you've known all your life that out of all the nations, Israel had been chosen by God.

Imagine you, an Israel, of the chosen nation, heard Jesus prophesy, the chosen will be gathered, and then the nations will be gathered and judged.

Who are the chosen, and who are the nations? I suggest the answer is evident, the chosen nation Israel, and all the other nations, the Gentiles.

Some will say the chosen who are gathered in Matthew 24 includes the Gentile church. Could this be true? The problem with this suggestion is we have to go on to ask, "Who then are the 'righteous', the sheep, in Matthew 25?"

These are declared the righteous from among the nations. But if the gentile righteous - the church - are gathered along with Israel, there are no sheep. They've already been gathered.

This would again be no surprise to the Israelites, who, from Joel 3, may well be expecting that God would return them to their land, and then gather and judge the Gentiles.

And then also, how are the nations judged? By their trusting in Jesus' death and resurrection? By being born again? No. They are judged according to how they treated other people, specifically, Jesus' brothers.

Who are Jesus' brothers in this context? Having already shown these are the Israelites gathered at Jesus' return, and the Gentile nations gathered when Jesus takes His throne, the Gentiles will be judged by how they treated the Isrealites, Jesus' brothers according to the flesh.

Specifically, this separation of the sheep from the goats is predicated not upon whether they believed in and received Jesus, it is based on whether they supplied or did not supply the needs of the Jews, Jesus' brothers. Those who did not are declared wicked, and will be sent away into punishment. Those who did will be declared righteous, and will be invited into the kingdom. This is a judgment of righteousness based on works.

I can only guess what the 2 witnesses will be prophesying. But one speculation I have is that they will be informing the world that Israel is God's chosen nation, and is to be treated accordingly.

And I can guess that the witnesses will be aiding the Jews flight from Judea by striking the beast armies with plagues, as the woman is carried by the wings of an eagle, same as how they were removed from Egypt.

The dragon will be getting ready to kill the woman, but the witnesses will be striking the earth with plagues preventing the armies of the beast from stopping her. Those who believe Jesus' prophecy will flee to the wilderness, where Elijah will be with them, preparing a people for the Lord, His bride making herself ready.

After the witness are killed, and ascend into heaven, angels begin to fly through the sky, as God's witness continues to be preached. I find God's instructions for this time in Matthew 10:

39) He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
40) He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
41) He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.
42) And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

I think this chapter gives instructions to the disciples as they were sent out, then the Apostles, then those at the end of the age, and finally, those during the great tribulation.

Much love!

The reason I can't go along with this is because it appears to be based on Dispensationalism, which separates Israel from the Church. The Church consists of believers in Christ from all nations, including Israel. Paul said that the wall between "Chosen Nation" and "unchosen nations" has come down. Now, we are all part of a single Body for Christ, the Church.

We are all gathered at the same time. When Jesus spoke of the gathering of Israel in his Olivet Discourse it was still OT, with the Law still in effect, and Israel was still the "Chosen Nation." And so Jesus was relaying what would happen to the believers in Israel at that time, who would actually be both in Israel and spread all across the earth in the Diaspora.

You see, the Jewish Diaspora would last, according to Jesus, until the end of the age. When Jesus comes back, he will come back for believers in Israel and for Jewish believers around the world.

And this will be the basis of their judgment--whether they believed in him or not. Most Jews will not believe in him at the end. But a remnant has believed in him, and will believe in him. Jesus is coming back for them.

At that time, when the Church is gathered at Christ's return, the nation on earth will be restored. This will be a mortal Israel restored in accordance with the biblical prophecies concerning the "Jewish Hope," the final restoration of Israel, and the complete end of Gentile domination in all ages.

There is nothing prohibiting the Rapture of the Church at Jesus' 2nd Coming. Indeed, this event is simultaneous with the restoration of Israel. And I should think many other Christian nations will be restored, as well.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Promised land allotments are not for the gentiles, however, not as I understand things. God has various ways of doing things with different people and in different times. There are prophecies for Israel which will be fullfilled with Israel. Being a "child of faithful Abraham" does not give me, a gentile, a land grant in Israel. But it will give one to the Israelite who receives Jesus when He comes again.

A lot of the things I seem to disagree with in your views seem connected to Dispensationalism. We tend to think Israel belongs in her own category, excluding the Church, because so much of the Bible focuses only on her! But the truth is, the OT focuses only on Israel because the Law was only for Israel! That's why only Israel is treated there!

But after Christ's resurrection, we get a new partner, the body of all nations--specifically, those who embrace Christ. Everything that was given to Israel in the OT is now given to believers in all nations, even though this no longer requires the Law. Our "chosenness" now belongs both to Israel and to all nations, specifically those who believe.

Some believe that theocracy is a concept relegated to the OT such that God has now changed in the NT, abandoning theocracy for democracy or some such thing! But nothing could be farther from the truth. God doesn't change. God still wants entire nations committed to Him--not just a few. He wants the whole society to be just--not just a few.

But just like Israel, we see Christian nations develop and then fall. This is inevitable in the present age. The plan of God for nations falls apart just like it did for Israel. Whereas Israel failed under the covenant of Law, Christian nations fail in their commitment to one religion--Christianity.

And so, we really don't have much change from OT to NT, except that final redemption has now been won. I just don't see any more spiritual distinction between God's people among the Jews and God's people among the Gentiles. They are all Christians and part of the same body, even if their ethnicities remain distinct.

We here in OT prophecy that Israel will be restored, leading some to think that only Israel will be God's nation, ruling supreme, in the Millennial era. But we think that way only because OT prophecy was only dealing with one nation--Israel.

Now that we're in the NT era, we can plainly see that in the Millennium, God will have many Christian nations--not just Israel. We are now in the NT era--not still in the OT era.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You are speaking of the reach of the beast's power, I'm speaking of the nature of the beast's power. It will have power to overcome any and all. Now, it if doesn't get it's hands on someone, if they elude the beast, the beast cannot enact its power over them.

The thing of it is, the 2 witness cannot be hurt, much less killed. So it's not about whether the beast can get to them or not, even if it does, it can't kill them. The beast will not have the power to hurt these two.

Revelation 13:7
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

For 3.5 years, the beast will not be able to make war with these 2 saints, and will not be able to overcome them. So by the plain meaning of what I'm reading, the beast will not have been given that power while those 2 saints CANNOT be harmed.

Not that they are successfully hiding, rather, the beast lacks the power to hurt them.

Much love!

You read way more into it than I do. I find that the Beast is in a general sense given power to reign as a supreme superpower. It will still have only a limited empire--there will be many other nations on earth with their own limited power.

The fact Antichrist does not have the ability to destroy the 2 Witnesses during his reign does not mean God lied when He indicated Antichrist would have the full power of Satan. Even Satan, though he rules over the earth presently, cannot do anything without God's permission! He had to get God's permission to go after Job!

The reason I believe the 2 Witnesses are protected by God for 3.5 years is so that the world will have a clear witness in Israel to Christ and against the Antichrist. God would not leave the world without a witness in this time period. There will be, I believe, Christians all across the earth who witness against Antichrist and for Christ. But these 2 Witnesses appear to have special prominence, and will reach the world with their message.

That's why when the Antichrist kills the 2 Witnesses God ends the period of Antichrist's imperial supremacy. And then, the nations will begin their revolt. I don't claim to know the actual scenario, so I'm hypothesizing. All I know is that somehow Antichrist draws the world to Armageddon for battle. So I see only one period of 3.5 years in the book of Revelation, which is based on Daniel's own rendering of 3.5 years of rule by the Little Horn, mentioned in ch. 7.

 

[Randy Kluth]

As my starting point I consider either of these prophecies separately and in their own right, and I want to make sure I know what I can about each individually, then then compare what I may find similar and different between them.

In this case, I find very specific time frames in the Revelation. I would not consider Daniel to be the origin of John's writing, rather, that this was the vision Jesus gave to John, and what it showed and taught him.

It sounds that you are suggesting we form a view of the times of Daniel, and then insist that view be imposed over the times shown in the Revelation.

Daniel 9:24-27
24) Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25) Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26) And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27) And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

In this part bolded is where I see Jesus crucified, after the 69 weeks, but before the 70th week. But I find Revelation to give more clear information about the timings of things at the end of the age.

Much love!

Even though I believe Jesus gave his revelation to John directly, I still believe it was predicated on the understanding of the prophecy in Dan 7, in which the Little Horn would reign for 3.5 years. The Beast prophecy in Rev 13 also originates from Dan 7, with the 4th Beast, who rules until the end of the age. This is the Roman imperial tradition, which even today still continues, and has never been conquered. Europe remains intact, despite the setbacks of the fall of Rome in 476 AD and the fall of Constantinople in 1453 AD. I don't think since ancient Rome the word "empire" has ever left European vocabulary!

 

[WaterSong]

I am really starting to wonder if the pre-tribulation rapture is a doctrine of demons. It sounds wonderful but in reality I think it is a stretch to conclude that there will be a pre-trib rapture from scripture. Yet it is taught with confidence that it is truth. If it is a false teaching that Timothy warns about, many people will be devastated when they are not raptured before the poop hits the fan. I am not worried as I am sure God will protect us but if I spend my days attending a church that teaches this am I just itching my ears? I want truth, I can handle the truth.

Maybe the question we can ask ourselves if we think that it is the DofD is this, is the church, we the believers, appointed to wrath?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Maybe the question we can ask ourselves if we think that it is the DofD is this, is the church, we the believers, appointed to wrath?

Not the kind of Wrath you're referring to. In context, the Wrath you're referring to is eternal punishment. This is not going to touch true Christians.

But it is another thing entirely to say that Christians cannot be chastised in this age. Christians make mistakes, and are chastised by God for it. This is not eternal punishment, but rather, correction for the purpose of holiness.

Christians do hold to all kinds of bad beliefs and doctrines. It's in the nature of the human will to want its own way, to believe what enables it to get its own way. Faith Doctrine is a great false enabler of this sort. So is Pretrib Doctrine, which promises an escape from having to be persecuted.

But falling for false hopes of escaping trouble can lead to problems. If we aren't aware of the dangers, we may fall into overconfidence and lack of preparation. We may grow lazy or apathetic. We need to gear up for tough times, so as to not get discouraged.

There is a reason for some of these doctrines which the "flesh" positively hates. It *hates* the cross, because it threatens our own selfish lifestyle with destruction. If we don't get our own way, we are crushed, assuming we are banking on getting our own way.

We have to prepare ourselves by carrying our cross at all times, knowing that the world hates the Gospel. And yet some will be saved, just as we were.

 

[Davy]

What about the should make me look foolish? If we teach it for exactly what it says, the way language was used at the time this was spoken, there is no ambiguity.

Those Matthew 24 and Mark 13 Scriptures I posted are direct statements by Lord Jesus revealing that His coming to gather His saints is AFTER... the tribulation He taught about there. Both versions parallel what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4 about the rapture.

So your trying to infer that Jesus said something different than how the KJV translators translated there is not only a joke and mockery of what Lord Jesus said there, but it is also a mockery of the very 1 Thessalonians 4 Scripture that Apostle Paul taught about the rapture. You only contradicted yourself, and you didn't even realize it, which is actually worse.

 

[Truther]

Those Matthew 24 and Mark 13 Scriptures I posted are direct statements by Lord Jesus revealing that His coming to gather His saints is AFTER... the tribulation He taught about there. Both versions parallel what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4 about the rapture.

So your trying to infer that Jesus said something different than how the KJV translators translated there is not only a joke and mockery of what Lord Jesus said there, but it is also a mockery of the very 1 Thessalonians 4 Scripture that Apostle Paul taught about the rapture. You only contradicted yourself, and you didn't even realize it, which is actually worse.

This first....

24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 and the stars shall be falling from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens shall be shaken.

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall he send forth the angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven....



Then after that, this next?....


6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.


Nope, that makes no sense .
The "elect" Jesus spoke of in Mark 13 can only be the tribulation saints.
The bride returns with Christ as an army, straight out of a wedding feast.
Mark 13 depicts saints that were not in the marriage supper.

 

[Davy]

On this part, I think you're a bit in violation of the rules of this site, don't you?

Much love!

No, I'm not, simply because that is who the false Pre-trib Rapture theory is designed for, i.e., the deceived. It is designed to fool those who fall for it into accepting the 1st supernatural messiah that shows up working great signs and wonders in Jerusalem, and that will proclaim himself as Christ-God, and whom the unbelieving Jews are being prepared to accept as their Messiah. This warning was well written of in many Bible Scriptures about the end of this world, so it's not something I'm making up.

2 Cor.11 - Apostle Paul warned about accepting the "another Jesus", and said he wants to present us to Christ as a "chaste virgin". Paul then pointed to how Satan disguises himself as an angel of light, and his servants as ministers of righteousness.

2 Thess.2 - Apostle Paul warned that prior to Christ's coming to gather His Church, a false one must come first working signs and lying wonders, to sit in the temple of God (in Jerusalem), and proclaim himself as God. Paul called those who fall away to that "strong delusion".

Matthew 24:23-26 - Jesus warned about the coming of a pseudo-Christ that will work great signs and wonders that IF possible, would deceive even the very elect. When someone comes up to us and says things like Christ is here, or there, He said to not believe it.

In Revelation 13:11 forward - John warns us of a false one coming that will have two horns 'like' a lamb (Jesus), but will speak as a dragon (Satan). He is to work signs and wonders and miracles, rain fire down to the earth from heaven in the sight of men. And he will setup an idol abomination like the king of Babylon did back in history, requiring all to bow to it, or be killed.


Those are the warnings your Pre-trib Rapture theory churches won't cover. That's why you don't know what accepting that Pre-trib Rapture theory is designed to do.

 

[Davy]

I don't have to study Darby. I just listen to Jesus!

No, you do not listen to Jesus. You listen to Darby and his understudies after him that continued pushing the false Pre-tribulational Rapture theory.

Jesus said He is going to prepare a place for us.

Lord Jesus in John 14 said He will come again, and that... MUST ALIGN WITH ALL OTHER SCRIPTURE about His coming to gather His Church. The theory you follow does not align with what Apostle Paul taught in 2 Thess.2, nor 1 Thess.4, nor 1 Cor.15, nor with Jesus per Matthew 24:29-31, nor with other verses by Apostle Paul about Christ's coming.

So what does it mean when someone tries to use a single Scripture like John 14 and pull it out of its context, and instead insert a FOREIGN DOCTRINE that is not written in God's Word??

For over 1800 years teh church also has believed in teh perpetual virginity of Mary, purgatory and that people can lose their salvation due ot sins. Those are wrong also even though these thoughts have been around for a long time. time does not make doctrine right! Conforming to Scripture makes it right!

The Christian Church since the 1st century A.D. believed in a post-tribulational coming of Christ and gathering of His Church. The first recording preaching of a Pre-tribulational Rapture theory in a church was in 1830's Great Britain with the Irvingite movement, which is where John Darby got the idea and began preaching it also, and even suggesting Jesus would do a "secret" coming to rapture the Church.

And talk about conforming to Scripture, Lord Jesus taught in Matthew 24:29-31 that His coming to gather His saints is AFTER... the tribulation. But you pre-trib rapture folks preach just the opposite of what He said! So don't talk to me about conforming to Scripture, you white-washed wall!

Well I didn't know you were appointed the Papal authority of understanding John 14!

People like you will use any kind of slur you can to try and scoot away from the truth written in God's Word. That's why you keep skipping the Scripture evidences I post, like the Matthew 24:29-31 Scripture.

I'm not a Catholic by the way. I was raised in a Protestant Christian Church, and I'm thankful they did not preach the false Pre-trib Rapture theory.

As for not understanding Gods Word? Let us look how you misunderstand the Thess. passage.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

YOu say teh dead rise first. I agree! then YOU say that the living saints get snatched up some years later- there is no warrant for that in the language.

Where did I ever say the living saints get snatched up "some years later"??? You know, the devil added to the Psalms Scripture when He tempted Lord Jesus in Luke 4. Is that one of your ploys against Christians too?

Apostle Paul taught there in 1 Thess.4 that when Jesus DESCENDS from Heaven, He will bring the asleep saints with Him, showing their being resurrected, and THEN... at the SAME TIME, the saints still alive on earth are "caught up" to Him (and them). That is what Paul taught, and that is what I covered from 1 Thess.4.

But I also covered a parallel of that in 1 Corinthians 15:50-51 which is the SAME TIMING.

Per God's Word, the resurrection happens on the very LAST DAY of this world, NOT prior to the great tribulation when pre-trib says the rapture happens. You guys CANNOT SEPARATE the resurrection time apart from the gathering time, though that is exactly... what you like to try and do!

Revelation 19:7-9
King James Version

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

If a chunk of the church is still on earth and waiting to be transformed and judged at the bema judgment in Corinth. to have its work judged before they are clean and robed in white, then the whole bride is not ready and that verse is wrong.

Verse 7 makes it clear "His Wife" is not most or nearly all has made herself readybut HIS WIFE (all teh church) is ready and in heaven.

Besides, the Day of the Lord (that whole time frame and not just one 24 hour day) is called teh wrath of God and God promised to deliver the church from the wrath to come. That cannot mean that we are protected during the tribulation, for SCripture makes clear that many many many saints are killed during the time of the wrath of teh Lamb.

Oh no! Not that Revelation 19 pre-trib baloney theory again!!!

NOTICE BRETHREN, HE DOES NOT QUOTE THE FIRST PART OF THE CHAPTER.


All these following verses up to the Rev.19:10 verse are for the time IMMEDIATELY AFTER CHRIST'S RETURN, and AFTER THE TRIBULATION:

Rev 19:1-9
19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, "Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2 For true and righteous are His judgments: for He hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of His servants at her hand.

Notice above the saints are among The LORD and are saying "Salvation", and how He "hath judged the great whore", and "hath avenged the blood of His servants"!!! What timing do you think that means brethren??? That is AFTER CHRIST'S RETURN TIME! THE WHORE IS JUDGED AT THE END OF THE TRIBULATION!


3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

The smoke of the great whore rose up forever? Again, what timing is that? AFTER CHRIST'S RETURN!


4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, "Praise our God, all ye His servants, and ye that fear Him, both small and great."
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, "Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to Him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and His wife hath made herself ready."
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, "Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb." And he saith unto me, "These are the true sayings of God."
KJV

The marriage supper is for AFTER CHRIST'S RETURN to end this present world. It happens when He begins His reign over ALL NATIONS.

The above Scripture is also for AFTER CHRIST'S RETURN. It is also when God is going to make His supper of Isaiah 25 for all nations and peoples...

Isa 25:6-9
6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

7 And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.

8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall He take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

9 And it shall be said in that day, "Lo, this is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation.
KJV

Did you notice that phrase, "He will swallow up death in victory" is where Apostle Paul was teaching from in 1 Corinthians 15 about death being swallowed up? ALL... of those above Scriptures are about the TIME AFTER CHRIST'S RETURN, which is still future to us.


But starting at Revelation 19:11-21 is LAST DAY TIMING WHEN JESUS RETURNS TO END THIS PRESENT WORLD.

 

[Davy]

This first....

24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 and the stars shall be falling from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens shall be shaken.

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall he send forth the angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven....


Then after that, this next?....


6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.


Nope, that makes no sense .
The "elect" Jesus spoke of in Mark 13 can only be the tribulation saints.
The bride returns with Christ as an army, straight out of a wedding feast.
Mark 13 depicts saints that were not in the marriage supper.

No, you didn't get it right.

The Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture is a PARALLEL to what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17.

In the Matthew 24 version, it's about saints gathering 'from' Heaven, which points to the "asleep" saints Jesus brings with Him per 1 Thess.4. In the Mark 13 version, it's about the saints still alive gathered, which is about those "caught up" in 1 Thess.4.

Then... the Revelation 19:1-9 Scripture is about the time IMMEDIATELY AFTER CHRIST'S RETURN when He begins His "thousand years" REIGN OVER ALL NATIONS. That... is when the marriage supper will take place. That is why those verses show God having judged the whore and her smoke rising forever. So that is CLEAR that it is after... the tribulation has ended and Christ has returned. That is when Jesus will gather His Church, as that is the only other time of His coming. What the pre-trib school is teaching is false.

 

[Truther]

No, you didn't get it right.

The Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture is a PARALLEL to what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17.

In the Matthew 24 version, it's about saints gathering 'from' Heaven, which points to the "asleep" saints Jesus brings with Him per 1 Thess.4. In the Mark 13 version, it's about the saints still alive gathered, which is about those "caught up" in 1 Thess.4.

Then... the Revelation 19:1-9 Scripture is about the time IMMEDIATELY AFTER CHRIST'S RETURN when He begins His "thousand years" REIGN OVER ALL NATIONS. That... is when the marriage supper will take place. That is why those verses show God having judged the whore and her smoke rising forever. So that is CLEAR that it is after... the tribulation has ended and Christ has returned. That is when Jesus will gather His Church, as that is the only other time of His coming. What the pre-trib school is teaching is false.

No, you think Mark 13 says THE CHURCH is the elect that Jesus was speaking of to save after the Great Tribulation, when Rev 19 says THE CHURCH is in heaven before Jesus returns...at the marriage of the Lamb...then they return with Him.

So, this means the Bible is backwards or....
... "the elect" is the post rapture population of folks that refused the mark and were almost deceived by the antichrist.

 

[Davy]

No, you think Mark 13 says THE CHURCH is the elect that Jesus was speaking of to save after the Great Tribulation, when Rev 19 says THE CHURCH is in heaven before Jesus returns...at the marriage of the Lamb...then they return with Him.

So, this means the Bible is backwards or....
... "the elect" is the post rapture population of folks that refused the mark and were almost deceived by the antichrist.

No, what you are being taught... is WHAT IS BACKWARDS FROM SCRIPTURE.


You didn't read the first part of the Revelation 19 chapter, did you? It's obvious you did not.

The ONLY time when God judges the "great whore" is AFTER THE TRIBULATION. That is the timing when those saints are shown in heaven with The LORD, saying Alleluia and Salvation! And that GOD Omnipotent REIGNETH!

That timing is per the first part of Rev.19 is pointing to the time AFTER the tribulation, when Jesus is reigning with His "rod of iron" over the nations, and His faithful saints with Him. Don't you remember in Rev.2 His promise to His elect saints that overcome how they will reign with Him with that rod of iron, over the nations? It is that... timing when the marriage supper happens, not before.

Pre-trib instead has it wrong. They instead wrongly preach that Jesus comes before the tribulation to gather His church, and then the marriage supper happens then, DURING the time of great tribulation. Not so! This is why they SKIP those Revelation 19:1-6 verses which gives the timing AFTER the tribulation when Jesus is reigning over the wicked with the "rod of iron".

Don't you remember when Jesus gave parables about the marriage supper and one without a wedding garment tried to sneak in, and his ultimate fate was to be cast to the "outer darkness"? That is Millennium timing, not tribulation timing. The "outer darkness" represents a place of separation outside the holy city during Christ's future thousand years reign, like Revelation 22:14-15 with those outside the gates of the city.


And another important matter that many brethren miss in their Bible study. When the LAST DAY of this world comes with Lord Jesus' return, this present flesh world will be over. The heavenly is going to be revealed right here on earth. That is how the new Jerusalem will descend down to this earth in that future time, as written at the end of Revelation.

 

[Truther]

No, what you are being taught... is WHAT IS BACKWARDS FROM SCRIPTURE.


You didn't read the first part of the Revelation 19 chapter, did you? It's obvious you did not.

The ONLY time when God judges the "great whore" is AFTER THE TRIBULATION. That is the timing when those saints are shown in heaven with The LORD, saying Alleluia and Salvation! And that GOD Omnipotent REIGNETH!

That timing is per the first part of Rev.19 is pointing to the time AFTER the tribulation, when Jesus is reigning with His "rod of iron" over the nations, and His faithful saints with Him. Don't you remember in Rev.2 His promise to His elect saints that overcome how they will reign with Him with that rod of iron, over the nations? It is that... timing when the marriage supper happens, not before.

Pre-trib instead has it wrong. They instead wrongly preach that Jesus comes before the tribulation to gather His church, and then the marriage supper happens then, DURING the time of great tribulation. Not so! This is why they SKIP those Revelation 19:1-6 verses which gives the timing AFTER the tribulation when Jesus is reigning over the wicked with the "rod of iron".

Don't you remember when Jesus gave parables about the marriage supper and one without a wedding garment tried to sneak in, and his ultimate fate was to be cast to the "outer darkness"? That is Millennium timing, not tribulation timing. The "outer darkness" represents a place of separation outside the holy city during Christ's future thousand years reign, like Revelation 22:14-15 with those outside the gates of the city.


And another important matter that many brethren miss in their Bible study. When the LAST DAY of this world comes with Lord Jesus' return, this present flesh world will be over. The heavenly is going to be revealed right here on earth. That is how the new Jerusalem will descend down to this earth in that future time, as written at the end of Revelation.

No, you have it wrong.

You know that Mark 13 depicts the Lord returning to the left over folks of the tribulation on earth.

You know the saints are returning with him to earth per Rev 19 and Zech 14.

Now, how do they partake of the marriage in heaven, return with Him, then they are found on earth to wait for His second coming???

 

[Davy]

No, you have it wrong.

You know that Mark 13 depicts the Lord returning to the left over folks of the tribulation on earth.

That's just a lie you've been told. The Matthew 24 version of Christ's coming to gather His saints parallels 1 Thess.4 about the "asleep" saints Jesus brings with Him from heaven. The Mark 13 version is about the alive saints "caught up" to Jesus on that day. So both are parallels to what Paul taught in 1 Thess.4, which points to the LAST DAY because it mentions the resurrection there. THUS THE GATHERING OF THE SAINT IN CHRIST'S OLIVET DISCOURSE IS ABOUT HIS GATHERING OF HIS CHURCH.

You know the saints are returning with him to earth per Rev 19 and Zech 14.

Now, how do they partake of the marriage in heaven, return with Him, then they are found on earth to wait for His second coming???

Like I showed, the Rev.19:1-9 verses TIMING is AFTER... the tribulation. It is Millennium timing, when The LORD GOD Omnipotent REIGNETH, like it says there.

Jesus is not yet reigning over the nations DURING THE TRIBULATION TIMING. His reign with the Psalms 2 "rod of iron" begins at His coming. He gathers His Church on that same day of the 1st day of His future reign, thus ENDING the tribulation, and this present world, on the "day of the Lord".

The marriage supper is shown happening AFTER THE TRIBULATION, during Christ's reign.

Rev 19:2-3
2 For true and righteous are His judgments: for He hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of His servants at her hand.
3 And again they said, "Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
KJV

Rev 19:6-7
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, "Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth."
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to Him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and His wife hath made herself ready.
KJV

 

[Truther]

That's just a lie you've been told. The Matthew 24 version of Christ's coming to gather His saints parallels 1 Thess.4 about the "asleep" saints Jesus brings with Him from heaven. The Mark 13 version is about the alive saints "caught up" to Jesus on that day. So both are parallels to what Paul taught in 1 Thess.4, which points to the LAST DAY because it mentions the resurrection there. THUS THE GATHERING OF THE SAINT IN CHRIST'S OLIVET DISCOURSE IS ABOUT HIS GATHERING OF HIS CHURCH.




Like I showed, the Rev.19:1-9 verses TIMING is AFTER... the tribulation. It is Millennium timing, when The LORD GOD Omnipotent REIGNETH, like it says there.

Jesus is not yet reigning over the nations DURING THE TRIBULATION TIMING. His reign with the Psalms 2 "rod of iron" begins at His coming. He gathers His Church on that same day of the 1st day of His future reign, thus ENDING the tribulation, and this present world, on the "day of the Lord".

The marriage supper is shown happening AFTER THE TRIBULATION, during Christ's reign.

Rev 19:2-3
2 For true and righteous are His judgments: for He hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of His servants at her hand.
3 And again they said, "Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
KJV

Rev 19:6-7
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, "Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth."
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to Him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and His wife hath made herself ready.
KJV

"The marriage supper is shown happening AFTER THE TRIBULATION, during Christ's reign."


No way.

Here is the order from heaven to earth to Christ's reign...

Heaven...

19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.


To earth....

19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.


Christ's reign...

20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


All 3 are in sequential order in your Bible.



You sir, are reading it backwards.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The Christian Church since the 1st century A.D. believed in a post-tribulational coming of Christ and gathering of His Church. The first recording preaching of a Pre-tribulational Rapture theory in a church was in 1830's Great Britain with the Irvingite movement, which is where John Darby got the idea and began preaching it also, and even suggesting Jesus would do a "secret" coming to rapture the Church.

And talk about conforming to Scripture, Lord Jesus taught in Matthew 24:29-31 that His coming to gather His saints is AFTER... the tribulation. But you pre-trib rapture folks preach just the opposite of what He said! So don't talk to me about conforming to Scripture, you white-washed wall!

No He is not coming ot gather His saints- He is coming to gather the elect. If you allowed context to determine things in the bible like you probably do with all other literature- you would realize that He is reffering to teh Jewish people who got saved at the end of the Trib.

Well there was no talk of a rapture until the Latin vulgate came out and they used the word rapture!

And if you bothered to look at Pauls Thessalonians letter and discover the names of the 70th week of Daniel- you would know Paul explicitly taught that teh church will not go through the wrath of God.

No, you do not listen to Jesus. You listen to Darby and his understudies after him that continued pushing the false Pre-tribulational Rapture theory.

Wow! How do you fit your head out any doorway?

People like you will use any kind of slur you can to try and scoot away from the truth written in God's Word. That's why you keep skipping the Scripture evidences I post, like the Matthew 24:29-31 Scripture.

I'm not a Catholic by the way. I was raised in a Protestant Christian Church, and I'm thankful they did not preach the false Pre-trib Rapture theory.

I addressed your SCripture- you just told the world I do not understand what Jesus said in JOhn 14.

YOu act like a pople giving your ex-cathedra pontifications!

Teh nice thing ids, when the trump sounds BEFORE the 70th week of Daniel, god will take even a denier like you up to heaven as well. YOu imply I slander the Word of God and din't listen to Jesus. That just tells me that you are in the gall of bitterness.

But I also covered a parallel of that in 1 Corinthians 15:50-51 which is the SAME TIMING.

Per God's Word, the resurrection happens on the very LAST DAY of this world, NOT prior to the great tribulation when pre-trib says the rapture happens. You guys CANNOT SEPARATE the resurrection time apart from the gathering time, though that is exactly... what you like to try and do!

I cut and pasted your words above so you will not bear false witness again.

Gods Word says there is a resurrection before the millenial kingdom:

Revelation 20
King James Version

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


See verse 5? That proves you do not read all the counsel of SCripture or haven't read it yet and are forming opinions based on partial or faulty teaching!

Some dead ( no number given) rise before the thousand years. They are called part of the first resurrection in verse 6. They are called blessed and those who are pat of the first resurrection, on them the second death has no authority!

That means teh dead who are part of teh second resurrection quoted below:

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

On these folks, who are resurrected after the thousand years- the second death has authority! You would have the entire church under the authority of teh second death instead of under the authority of Jesus!