The Truth About The Rapture

[242006]

Yeah, sorry. I find your whole theory as much a guess as everyone else's 'End Day'. They too have found intricate and deep meaning in some of the more confusing and ambiguous Biblical comments on those escatological things. And since the Bible doesn't state out right and clearly what is going to happen, all of it remains suppostion. Beasts, dragons, temples, antichrists or Antichrist, actual disasters or metaphoric disasters, real one world government, religion and currency or just metaphorical ones? So many thoughts on all these matters, and until it all comes to pass mankind will continue to debate the topic.
Some theories fit better than others, in terms of what we are told in the Bible. I don't actually believe that the Rapture theory is an accurate one myself, but my point is this; you apparently see fit to label some Christians condemned just because they believe in the Rapture.
I know many wonderful, loving, devoted Christians, who truly live for Christ, and they believe in the Rapture. Do I agree with them on this point? No, but I hardly tell them they are damned, and they don't do the same with me.
Rapture, no Rapture...whatever. It's not a salvation issue, and as long as we all believe that one day Jesus will return and complete His Kingdom, and live everyday like we long for this, can we truly justify slinging mud at our brothers and sisters in Christ?

That's why I didn't bother to give you the long and documented version -- I already know you to be a scorner of Bible Truth.

Rapture is not a salvation issue?? How ignorant of a position to take!

Those that believe in Rapture are willing dupes for Satan at the endtime. Surely, Rapturists, who hold true to form at the endtime, will not make the first resurrection as they will have been deceived and will worship Satan -- thinking that he is Christ.

Luk 23:30​

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Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.

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Rev 6:16​

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And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

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Surely, these scriptures pertain to Christians, who for so long loved and worshipped the true Christ, but, by way of their belief in Rapture, allowed themselves to be deceived. When Rapturists figure out that they were deceived and had worshipped Satan instead, many will be so ashamed that they want to hide and die.

Mat 7:22​

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Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

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Others, specifically Rapture preachers, will try to justify themselves when the True Christ returns by pointing out all their good works. In v. 23, one sees Christ's judgment. One should take a look at the word 'never' in Greek -

G3763
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οὐδέποτε
oudepote
oo-dep'-ot-eh

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From​

G3761 and G4218; not even at any time, that is, never at all: - neither at any time, never, nothing at any time.

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Not in the past age, this current age, or the future age will they be remembered. They will be blotted out along with Satan. Surely, Rapture is most certainly a salvation issue.

 

[Rach1370]

That's why I didn't bother to give you the long and documented version -- I already know you to be a scorner of Bible Truth.
Rapture is not a salvation issue?? How ignorant of a position to take!
Those that believe in Rapture are willing dupes for Satan at the endtime. Surely, Rapturists, who hold true to form at the endtime, will not make the first resurrection as they will have been deceived and will worship Satan -- thinking that he is Christ.

Luk 23:30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.​

Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
​

Surely, these scriptures pertain to Christians, who for so long loved and worshipped the true Christ, but, by way of their belief in Rapture, allowed themselves to be deceived. When Rapturists figure out that they were deceived and had worshipped Satan instead, many will be so ashamed that they want to hide and die.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

Others, specifically Rapture preachers, will try to justify themselves when the True Christ returns by pointing out all their good works. In v. 23, one sees Christ's judgment. One should take a look at the word 'never' in Greek -

G3763
οὐδέποτε
oudepote
oo-dep'-ot-eh
​

From G3761 and G4218; not even at any time, that is, neverat all: - neither at any time, never, nothing at any time.

​

Not in the past age, this current age, or the future age will they be remembered. They will be blotted out along with Satan. Surely, Rapture is most certainly a salvation issue.

Ok. Firstly, I really don't want to get into it with you again. I'm sorry you can't engage in a discussion with out resorting to insulting me.
As far as a 'salvation' issue, what I meant was this. John 3:16, which is most commonly held as the summary of the Gospel, says:

[For God So Loved the World]
[16] “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
(John 3:16 ESV)

It does not say, 'whoever believes in Him and does not believe in the Rapture...'
For you, or anyone else, to come along and start deciding what does or does not earn salvation is for you to label yourself judge. And that is only for God.
So you believe the Rapture to be a false doctrine; fine. So do I. But it is not for us to slap a condemned label on them, its for us to lovingly show them, in scripture, what we believe to be a more accurate portrayal of scripture.

Why is it, I wonder, that every time I try and point out to you that all the correct doctrine in the world will do no good if you don't have love; that you scoff at me, belittle me, ignore love entirely and turn once again to verbally beating people into believing you are right.

[The Way of Love]
[13:1] If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
(1 Corinthians 13:1 ESV)
[7] Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
(1 Corinthians 13:7 ESV)
[13] So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
(1 Corinthians 13:13 ESV)

Jesus came because He loved. He asks us to love Him. What would you say of those Christians in circumstances that do not enable them to have sound teaching. Those who cannot read and have become saved only by hearing the Gospel by a preacher passing through their village. The special needs people, who can't understand much, but know Jesus loves them. So many people could be mistaken on so many doctrinal issues, for one reason or another. Are you going to condemn them all? Do you think Jesus looks down and says, 'sheesh, those fools, thinking I love them enough to yank them out of harms way. How dare they long for my return?'
'Rapturists' may have the timing all wrong, but they know Jesus WILL return, and they long for it! And they love Him! God asks us to do just that!

 

[242006]

Ok. Firstly, I really don't want to get into it with you again. I'm sorry you can't engage in a discussion with out resorting to insulting me.

Perhaps, you are oblivious to your own rudeness and lack of respect.

You [apparently] innocently ask -

"How do you make that connection?"


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After I replied to you with general points, how did you respond to it?? Did you give it serious consideration?? NO!

You replied with -

"I find your whole theory as much a guess as everyone else's 'End Day'. They too have found intricate and deep meaning in some of the more confusing and ambiguous Biblical comments on those escatological things. And since the Bible doesn't state out right and clearly what is going to happen, all of it remains suppostion."

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It doesn't take a rocket scientist to determine that you were not sincere to begin with in your original question. For, if you were sincere and wanted to learn, you would have asked for documentation. Instead, you just use the occasion to spout off with your typical nonsensical drivel, and further demonstrate your ignorance of the topic at hand.

As far as a 'salvation' issue, what I meant was this. John 3:16, which is most commonly held as the summary of the Gospel, says:

[For God So Loved the World]
[16] “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
(John 3:16 ESV)

It does not say, 'whoever believes in Him and does not believe in the Rapture...'

If you had bothered to actually read what I wrote with understanding, you would have realized that I did not state anything in opposition to John 3:16. Have you not read the parable of the 10 virgins??? Five out of ten of the virgins, though 'believers', missed out on the first resurrection. What about those working in the field and grinding at the mill?? One out of two are taken by Satan. All were 'believers', yet half lost their salvation.

For you, or anyone else, to come along and start deciding what does or does not earn salvation is for you to label yourself judge. And that is only for God.

Spare me your insolence!! If you had an iota of intelligence, you would have seen that I did not judge anyone! I simply taught the Word of God, where God forewarns us of His Judgment.

So you believe the Rapture to be a false doctrine; fine. So do I. But it is not for us to slap a condemned label on them, its for us to lovingly show them, in scripture, what we believe to be a more accurate portrayal of scripture.

Why is it, I wonder, that every time I try and point out to you that all the correct doctrine in the world will do no good if you don't have love; that you scoff at me, belittle me, ignore love entirely and turn once again to verbally beating people into believing you are right.

[The Way of Love]
[13:1] If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
(1 Corinthians 13:1 ESV)
[7] Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
(1 Corinthians 13:7 ESV)
[13] So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
(1 Corinthians 13:13 ESV)

Tough love, nonetheless, is a form of love. If you had correct doctrine, I would tell you that you are correct. The truth is that you lack love -

Pro 9:8​

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Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.

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Everytime I prove you in error, you never acknowledge it and/or thank me for correcting you. God labels people like you as a 'scorner'.

Jesus came because He loved. He asks us to love Him. What would you say of those Christians in circumstances that do not enable them to have sound teaching. Those who cannot read and have become saved only by hearing the Gospel by a preacher passing through their village. The special needs people, who can't understand much, but know Jesus loves them. So many people could be mistaken on so many doctrinal issues, for one reason or another. Are you going to condemn them all? Do you think Jesus looks down and says, 'sheesh, those fools, thinking I love them enough to yank them out of harms way. How dare they long for my return?'
'Rapturists' may have the timing all wrong, but they know Jesus WILL return, and they long for it! And they love Him! God asks us to do just that!

The Lord's Day [1,000 years] is for teaching all those that never had a fair chance in the flesh to hear the Truth. That would include non-christians and those christians, like some within the Rapture religion, who are innocent and cannot be held accountable for their false beliefs, which ended up in their worshipping of Satan in the endtime. These people, who missed the first resurrection, will get their opportunity at salvation at the second resurrection.

 

[Duckybill]

Those that believe in Rapture have taken the mark of the beast!

So you think Paul who wrote nearly half the NT took the mark?

 

[TexUs]

So you think Paul who wrote nearly half the NT took the mark?

Nowhere does Paul speak of a "rapture" it is very much so an unbiblical doctrine.

Plus it logically makes no sense. We go to heaven with Jesus then come back down for his final reign on earth?

 

[Duckybill]

Nowhere does Paul speak of a "rapture" it is very much so an unbiblical doctrine.

Plus it logically makes no sense. We go to heaven with Jesus then come back down for his final reign on earth?

1 Thessalonians 4:17 (NKJV)
[sup]17 [/sup]Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

 

[aspen]

Nowhere does Paul speak of a "rapture" it is very much so an unbiblical doctrine.

Plus it logically makes no sense. We go to heaven with Jesus then come back down for his final reign on earth?

Wow, I totally agree with you

Hmm....that is not going to help your case......I'll keep it on the down low

 

[Duckybill]

Wow, I totally agree with you

So you're saying you don't believe this clear Biblical statement?

1 Thessalonians 4:17 (NKJV)
[sup]17 [/sup]Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

 

[aspen]

So you're saying you don't believe this clear Biblical statement?

1 Thessalonians 4:17 (NKJV)
[sup]17 [/sup]Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

I believe that an entire doctrine has been developed around that one verse. I disagree with the doctrine. It is a new doctrine developed by Darby and I think it adds to scripture. It is funny to me that many Christians disagree loudly with the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory for the same reasons, but accept the Rapture without a peep

 

[Duckybill]

I believe that an entire doctrine has been developed around that one verse. I disagree with the doctrine. It is a new doctrine developed by Darby and I think it adds to scripture. It is funny to me that many Christians disagree loudly with the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory for the same reasons, but accept the Rapture without a peep

Paul's statement is hardly a "peep" and hardly new. It is God's Word. It is clear whether anyone believes or not. I do.

 

[aspen]

Paul's statement is hardly a "peep" and hardly new. It is God's Word. It is clear whether anyone believes or not. I do.

Well, I guess we are finished here.....you have given the decisive word....case closed

 

[TexUs]

1 Thessalonians 4:17 (NKJV)
[sup]17 [/sup]Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Did you read the first post?

 

[Duckybill]

Did you read the first post?

You mean about being mistranslated? Many try to re-write the Bible because they don't believe it. That's been going on for a long time.

 

[TexUs]

I believe that an entire doctrine has been developed around that one verse.

You mean like Papal succession? LOL!
Pot, kettle. I'm not dragging the Catholic thing back in here but it's pretty hypocritical. I do agree with your point but I wish you'd apply it to your own doctrines LOL

Paul's statement is hardly a "peep" and hardly new. It is God's Word. It is clear whether anyone believes or not. I do.

The rapture teachings certainly are new, only about 200 years or so and only been largely known and preached for 100.

You mean about being mistranslated? Many try to re-write the Bible because they don't believe it. That's been going on for a long time.

The point was that "caught up" doesn't mean "to heaven" the one time we know what it means. So it's folly to make the assumption here.

 

[Duckybill]

The rapture teachings certainly are new, only about 200 years or so and only been largely known and preached for 100.

I Thess was written 200 years ago?

The point was that "caught up" doesn't mean "to heaven" the one time we know what it means. So it's folly to make the assumption here.

Does it matter? Being "caught up" doesn't have to be "to heaven". It says "with the Lord".

 

[aspen]

You mean like Papal succession? LOL!
Pot, kettle. I'm not dragging the Catholic thing back in here but it's pretty hypocritical. I do agree with your point but I wish you'd apply it to your own doctrines LOL

Yeah...let's just move along.....

It is a bit different for Catholics - we admit that we do not rely on the Bible alone - they same cannot be said for Protestants who follow the Rapture doctrine.

 

[TexUs]

I Thess was written 200 years ago?

No but "rapture" theory started really cropping up in the 1800s and gaining steam in the 1900s.

Does it matter? Being "caught up" doesn't have to be "to heaven". It says "with the Lord".

Ahhh so you'd admit it doesn't necessarily mean it's in heaven? It says in the air.
So could this not mean, when he returns.

The word "meet" also means ([font="Helvetica]apantesin, [/font]see Matt 25:6 and Acts 28:15) that the people meet, in this case the Lord, and he accompanies them back to where they came from.

I suppose I must clarify, everything taken in context, I do not support a "rapture" to heaven. But obviously from this passage, I can't deny some sort of supernatural movement to Christ's side as we welcome him back to earth as the King.


My views on end times are not dogmatic. It'll all pan out in the end. However, I also recognize the Bible does not contradict itself, which a futurist does. Which a preterist does. I'm somewhere in-between

 

[tomwebster]

1 Thessalonians 4:17 (NKJV)
[sup]17 [/sup]Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

No, this is what Paul wrote,"1Th 4:17 ἔπειτα ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις εἰς ἀπάντησιν τοῦ Κυρίου εἰς ἀέρα, καὶ οὕτω πάντοτε σὺν Κυρίῳ ἐσόμεθα. "

 

[Duckybill]

No but "rapture" theory started really cropping up in the 1800s and gaining steam in the 1900s.

Contradiction.

Ahhh so you'd admit it doesn't necessarily mean it's in heaven? It says in the air.
So could this not mean, when he returns.

Certainly, it could other than Heaven. But it is also being taken from Earth. When He returns He will bring many with Him. No problem.

 

[TexUs]

Contradiction.

No, it's not.
A cancer can crop up in your 20s and not gain significant steam until your 40s.
Personal GPS cropped up and didn't gain significant steam for some time.
etc
etc
etc

Certainly, it could other than Heaven. But it is also being taken from Earth. When He returns He will bring many with Him. No problem.

Where is "from earth" supported?
"Air" is the only thing. Could be our atmosphere or it could be some spiritualish place between heaven and earth. (I don't think it's spiritual as I think there's a good Biblical argument that nobody has ascended to Heaven- at least the place where God dwells- as well as the people still being ALIVE and there being no proof here of spiritual bodies).