The Truth About The Rapture

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TexUs

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Hey guys. I've enjoyed reading your comments, they've been entertaining and wonderfully civil considering the topic! The Last Days have been an interest and a frustration for me, for it doesn't seem to matter which theory I consider, I'm still left with questions, and things that don't seem to add up.
LOL, welcome to the study of end times.
Keep in mind visions and prophecy were rarely literal... It's not hard for me to say "I really don't know" on much of the symbolic end times stuff. However... I believe what we CAN glean from it is the general idea of what'll happen (IE... wrath of God, new earth, that sort of thing), as well as the literal context some of the "end times" prophecies were made.


I think keeping that in mind can make it easier, but there is much (I started a new thread on where Christians go during God's wrath) that's just left to theorizing.


So, to find peace on the subject I've had to just let it go. I know several things to be true:
1 I'm a Christian, so I'm confident of my salvation
2 God is completely sovereign, so despite things seeming unlikely or impossible or just strange, my God is completely capable of doing anything and everything!
3 God is completely in control, and His plan is a good and just one. So whatever happens just before or on Jesus' return, I can trust it will be for the best and that very soon I'll be with Jesus!

I often find it such a shame that Christians argue so venomously about their End Time scenarios. It's like they're missing the point....It's gonna happen, and we're going to be with Jesus forever!
I wish we could just stand behind that and talk of the wonder to come, rather than arguing over how it will come.

John didn't seem to take a light approach to what he penned:

"Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near."


Now I think as you say, people can spend way too much time in it and miss much more important topics, but keep in mind there was a reason for Revelation and the study or at least consideration of material in it was considered important.
 

tomwebster

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...Now I think as you say, people can spend way too much time in it and miss much more important topics,...


T, that might have been true a number of years ago but we are in those times now and most "Christians” don't even know it and they will be deceived. Why do you suppose God placed so much information about this topic in His Word if we were not to know and understand it.
 

TexUs

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T, that might have been true a number of years ago but we are in those times now and most "Christians” don't even know it and they will be deceived. Why do you suppose God placed so much information about this topic in His Word if we were not to know and understand it.
Every generation since Christ ascended to heaven has been saying that. Forgive me if I don't jump on the bandwagon.
 

WhiteKnuckle

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T, that might have been true a number of years ago but we are in those times now and most "Christians” don't even know it and they will be deceived. Why do you suppose God placed so much information about this topic in His Word if we were not to know and understand it.

Do you suppose that maybe the end time prophesy being put in the Bible has many other reasons rather than just to point us to a supposed rapture?

For one, Prophecy is for those who are to be affected by it,, ,such as believers. In a time of great struggle such as the end times described in the Bible, people will begin to have fears and doubts. Others will come to try to comfort them in the wrong ways. Prophecy is given for the good of believers. As a sign to us, to rest our fears and know that our personal time on earth is short. It's a sign to us that are going through the tribulations that, Yes! God is in charge and He knows exactly what's going to happen, and to reassure us, that we will be in Heaven soon after. It's to encourage us.

Next, another idea I have about it, Not only proof for us as already believers, it will be proof to some who will be saved in the end times. It will be a valuable tool to have understanding and revelation and to be able to pray and have it revealed to others.

Another idea just might be to urge us to work a little harder if we have the asignment. As time grows nearer, Satan works harder,,, so must those of us charged with the task.

If all the Christians are taken off the earth, and all the Bibles are left, there will not be a single soul who could explain it to them unless God reveals it to them. But, if we take into account of a Rapture and God not wanting any believers to suffer it, then everyone that becomes a believer during the tribulation will be raptured up immediately. This event would therefore not make anysense to have end time prophecy left.

It doesn't make sense that some who are believers first should not go through tribulations, while those who are saved during must suffer because they were later, and well, just too bad for them.
 

TexUs

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I think I'd add to your post the entire purpose of Revelation, is revealed in the Title of the book... It's the Revelation of Christ.
Rapture theory, end times theory, all that's well and good to study however the main point of it was the Unveiling of Christ.

Prophecy and Visions are, again, rarely literal, and more often than not... Never fully understood until they are fulfilled.
The entire OT was a shadow of Christ. Do you suppose people in those days clearly saw that, or do you suppose WE clearly saw it after the fact?
 

HammerStone

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I have to take the time to point to Vincent's post - it's a good one!

I think the problem is that rapture has come to mean something very specific for 80% of the folks out there. I don't know that it's easy to argue that you can overvalue "end times prophecy" because our Savior taught on it, entire books were written in the Bible about it, and it's found in both Testaments. If you really get down to it, there's far more written about the end then there is the beginning yet we place so much emphasis on the original sin as an example.

As far as the OT revelation thought - what about the wise men (and others) who knew where the Christ would be born, come from, and so on? They knew Scripture and they knew prophecy. So did Herod's men - they knew where the Christ would be born but for nefarious purposes (his attempted execution).

It's all the inspired Word correct? So why does some inspiration take precedence over others?

Just want to get us all thinking. :)
 

TexUs

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As far as the OT revelation thought - what about the wise men (and others) who knew where the Christ would be born, come from, and so on? They knew Scripture and they knew prophecy. So did Herod's men - they knew where the Christ would be born but for nefarious purposes (his attempted execution).
I'd disagree slightly. They were astronomers... They knew the STARS as well. They saw a STAR rise, and they thought of said prophecy when they noticed it. The key thing to note, is they saw the FULFILLMENT of something before they understood it- or did they?

The question is, what prophecy linked them to it? Common belief is Numbers 24:17, however... at the end of said passage it's abundantly clear that prophecy was speaking of Moab, it's a stretch to apply this to Christ. (Indeed David fits the prophecy to a "T")

So at the end of the day perhaps they knew of this by revelation. (Obviously they were given, in a dream later on, the warning of Herrod). Who knows. I just don't see anything in the Bible that would have told them about the star.


It's all the inspired Word correct? So why does some inspiration take precedence over others?
Nothing does! It all fits together perfectly. Perhaps the question should be, why does some inspiration take more of our time than others?
 

Vincent

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Revelation is definitely important for us, as are all the other books of the Bible.

Just because Revelation is hard to understand doesn't mean we should just say "oh well, I'm saved and that's all that matters.". Do we do that with other books? Give up on them because we don't understand them? It is our duty to try to understand them, because the better we understand God's word, the better we understand God.

Also, it is our duty to correct our brothers and sisters if they misunderstand. Of course this can lead to arguments, but arguing does not make us un-Christian (Is that a word?) It makes us passionate, and it can lead to clearer understanding.

I get so frustrated when people assume that being Christian means being passive and non-confrontational. Just smile and love and say nice things. That's not what Jesus taught. Jesus had no problem confronting people if they were wrong. And he got angry too! Is he not our role model?

And there are plenty of other examples in the Bible where God acknowledged and rewarded those who aggressively defended God's honour even to the point of killing people for their sins. God is passionate about his word and we should be equally passionate.
 
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242006

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1Th 4:17​
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

All of the Rapture sects rely upon 1 Thes. 4:17 as the base scripture to support their respective religions. Irrespective of whether a particular Rapture sect is of the pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib persuasion, all said sects center their theological theory on the literal meaning of the words 'caught up', 'clouds', and 'air' as commonly understood in English. As the air that we breathe is in the atmosphere, as the clouds above us are in the atmosphere, and as we would have to travel up to be in the clouds, the rapture theory makes a bit of sense if one only considers the English rendering and no other scripture.

However, the original language in which the NT Word of God was transcribed into was Greek -- not English. Hence, before one should run off and start a new Rapture religion, deference should be given to the Greek meanings of these key words and whether they are intended literally or non-literally.

1. caught up -

In Strong's Concordance, 'caught up' is -

G726
ἁρπάζω
harpazō
har-pad'-zo

From a derivative of
G138; to seize (in various applications): - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).
It means 'to seize' -- not travel up to be in the clouds. So, the common understanding of the English wording 'caught up' is not what is meant in the Word of God.

2. clouds -

In Strong's, 'clouds' -
G3507
νεφέλη
nephelē
nef-el'-ay

From G3509; properly cloudiness, that is, (concretely) a cloud: - cloud.

It meands cloudiness and is derived from the word G2509, which is -

G3509
νέφος
nephos
nef'-os

Apparently a primary word; a cloud: - cloud.
Clearly, this word nephos, is a literal 'cloud'. It is used only one time in the NT -

Heb 12:1​
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
The word 'cloud' is not used literally; but, is used metaphorically to describe a great gathering. In this case, the gathering is of witnesses. Hence, as the primary word is figurative/metaphorical and is from which the word 'clouds' is derived in 1 Thes. 4:17, it is plausible that 'clouds' [cloudiness -- G3507] is also metaphorically/figuratively utilized in the manner of a great gathering.

In fact, we see the metaphorical/figurative use of the Greek nephele in other NT scriptures -


1Co 10:2​
And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

Rev 10:1​
And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:

Rev 14:14
And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

Rev 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Jud 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

As a noun, Dr. Strong made the distinction between the cloud [G3509 - nephos] in Heb. 12:1 and the cloud [G2507 - nephele] used elsewhere, including 1 Thes. 4:17, by way of describing the latter with the adjective (concretely). 'Concretely' means 'formed by the coalesence of separate particles or parts into one mass' [courtesy of the American Heritage Dictionary]. In other words, the 'clouds' of 1 Thes. 4:17 is the great gathering of them [saints] that return with Christ -- not clouds in the atmosphere.

3. air -

In Strong's, 'air' -

G109
ἀήρ
aēr
ah-ayr'

From
ἄημι aēmi (to breathe unconsciously, that is, respire; by analogy to blow); "air" (as naturally circumambient): - air. Compare G5594.
Certainly, the word is not the atmosphere in which our clouds exist. There is another Greek Word rendered as 'air', which denotes the atmosphere/sky in which literal clouds exist -


G3772
οὐρανός
ouranos
oo-ran-os'

Perhaps from the same as
G3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension heaven (as the abode of God); by implication happiness, power, eternity; specifically the Gospel (Christianity): - air, heaven ([-ly]), sky.

It is used to denote 'sky' here -

Mat 6:26​
Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?

Clearly, if Paul intended to mean literal clouds in the sky, he would have used the Greek ouranos to indicate 'sky' instead of the Greek aer, which means 'breath', as in 'breath of life'.

*********************

1 Thes. 4:17 is stating that, upon the Lord's return [v. 16], we [the elect] will be seized to join the Lord and the saints, who, in the past, died in the flesh [v. 13] and are returning with Christ [v. 16], in our breath of life [spiritual] bodies.

As one can see, the actual meaning of this scripture does not support the Rapture religion.
 

TexUs

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Very good however harpazo, the one case we know what it means, it does support a "teleportation" of sorts.

And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord carried Philip away, and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing. But Philip found himself at Azotus

As you can see, one can't discount a supernatural seizing. Even if you literally translate it as seized, one still can't remove this possibility.



As far as the air, one cannot also remove the "atmosphere" as a possibility as we can see in these other passages. This first one is an alternate of the term used in Thes, but the rest are the same word.
He opened the shaft of the bottomless pit, and from the shaft rose smoke like the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened with the smoke from the shaft.


And as they were shouting and throwing off their cloaks and flinging dust into the air


So I do not run aimlessly; I do not box as one beating the air.


So with yourselves, if with your tongue you utter speech that is not intelligible, how will anyone know what is said? For you will be speaking into the air.


The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air


Edit- now, I do realize, that one could still perhaps take all of these as "breath" ("the air we breathe")... You could be right. I'm just saying you can't exactly remove the possibility.

Edit 2- Actually I looked up ouranos (sky). To see the usage. It is used as "air" 9 times, sky about 22 times, and heaven or heavenly or heavens as 245 times!
It seems to me, that ouranos would better serve as a metaphorical word than would aer.
 

tomwebster

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Do you suppose that maybe the end time prophesy being put in the Bible has many other reasons rather than just to point us to a supposed rapture?

...

There is not going to be a RAPTURE. WE do not go anywhere before the last trumpet sounds, then ALL living humans are changed into their spirit (aēr) bodies. Some have work to do in those days, most will have bowed to the antichrist because they do not understand and have been deceived by the many false teachers in our churches. A forum is also a type of modern day church. Those that have all ready died are in heaven, they are not in a hole in the ground somewhere.
 

Ed J

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Hey guys. I've enjoyed reading your comments, they've been entertaining and wonderfully civil considering the topic! The Last Days have been an interest and a frustration for me, for it doesn't seem to matter which theory I consider, I'm still left with questions, and things that don't seem to add up.
So, to find peace on the subject I've had to just let it go. I know several things to be true:
1 I'm a Christian, so I'm confident of my salvation
2 God is completely sovereign, so despite things seeming unlikely or impossible or just strange, my God is completely capable of doing anything and everything!
3 God is completely in control, and His plan is a good and just one. So whatever happens just before or on Jesus' return, I can trust it will be for the best and that very soon I'll be with Jesus!

I often find it such a shame that Christians argue so venomously about their End Time scenarios. It's like they're missing the point....It's gonna happen, and we're going to be with Jesus forever!
I wish we could just stand behind that and talk of the wonder to come, rather than arguing over how it will come.
Hi Rach,

Have you ever considered Jesus (may have) returned on "Pentecost"? (John 14:23)

God bless
Ed J

 

Rach1370

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Hi Rach,
Have you ever considered Jesus (may have) returned on "Pentecost"? (John 14:23)
God bless
Ed J

Hey Ed J. Truthfully...nope! I believe that the Bible says that when Jesus returns, His second advent, that the world will be judged. There will be a new heaven and earth and those of us that belong to Him will be with Him forever!
And just looking at the News I'd say that Jesus hasn't come back yet. I'd say we're in an 'Already not yet' kinda situation.
I'm not sure when this is going to be, and I'm not really sure what the lead up to it is, but I'm very happy waiting for Him! Thanks!
 

242006

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Very good however harpazo, the one case we know what it means, it does support a "teleportation" of sorts.


Harpazo, meaning 'forcibly seized', is undefined as to application and could mean most anything without context. It is the context of 1 Thes. 4:17 that drives the meaning thereof harpazo. As such, the context is about those that have already died in Christ [v. 13-16]. So, once one knows what happens when a person dies in the flesh, one knows that those, who have already died, are in spiritual bodies. See 1 Cor. 15:44, 51-53, Ecc. 12:7.

Hence, by context, one knows that the 'seizing' has nothing whatsoever to do with 'teleportation'. The 'seizing' is simply converting all into spiritual bodies, alone [no longer two bodies in one as the flesh is discarded].

As further proof that there is no teleportation, one just has to know what takes place thereafter the 7th trump and Christ's return. It is the Lord's Day -- His reign on earth as King of Kings begins. Accordingly, no one is going anywhere as all will be on earth during the Lord's Day. There is no 'teleportation' associated with 1 Thes. 4:17.

And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord carried Philip away, and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing. But Philip found himself at Azotus

As you can see, one can't discount a supernatural seizing. Even if you literally translate it as seized, one still can't remove this possibility.


If you think that 1 Thes. 4:17 is a teleportation, then you must know where the Lord's Day will take place other than here on Earth.

As far as the air, one cannot also remove the "atmosphere" as a possibility as we can see in these other passages. This first one is an alternate of the term used in Thes, but the rest are the same word.
He opened the shaft of the bottomless pit, and from the shaft rose smoke like the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened with the smoke from the shaft.


And as they were shouting and throwing off their cloaks and flinging dust into the air


So I do not run aimlessly; I do not box as one beating the air.


So with yourselves, if with your tongue you utter speech that is not intelligible, how will anyone know what is said? For you will be speaking into the air.


The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air


now, I do realize, that one could still perhaps take all of these as "breath" ("the air we breathe")... You could be right. I'm just saying you can't exactly remove the possibility.

It is rapturists that presume the English rendering 'air' means 'sky', where clouds exist. The Greek ouranos would have to be in 1 Thes. 4:17, if he meant 'sky' instead of 'breath of life body'. The key to understanding is knowing who the 'them' are in this scripture. 'Them' are those that have already died in the flesh. They are in spiritual bodies, which God 'breathed' into them.

Gen 2:7​
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The correlative of 'breath' to the placement of our spiritual bodies within us is so strikingly clear. Considering that the dead are in their spiritual, or breath of life bodies, and since the context of 1 Thes. 4:13-17 is the dead in Christ, it cannot be mistaken that the term 'air' in verse 17 is speaking of the breath of life body.

Actually I looked up ouranos (sky). To see the usage. It is used as "air" 9 times, sky about 22 times, and heaven or heavenly or heavens as 245 times!

You will never find aer rendered as 'sky', where clouds exist. Hence, rapture theory is debunked since ouranos does not exist in 1 Thes. 4:17.

It seems to me, that ouranos would better serve as a metaphorical word than would aer.

You are wrong! It is literal, depending on context.
 

TexUs

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You can disagree but I've stated what I need to state. There's Biblical examples that refute your absolute claims.

Your speculation could be correct, however, I'm just saying the Bible doesn't always use that terminology in the same way.
 

242006

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You can disagree but I've stated what I need to state. There's Biblical examples that refute your absolute claims.

Your speculation could be correct, however, I'm just saying the Bible doesn't always use that terminology in the same way.

Well, if you believe in the Word, you would know that there is not speculation at all.

I never said that the Bible did use terminology always the same. Context is everything. You attempt to speculate that 'teleportation' is applicable for 1 Thes. 4:17, based upon another usage, when there is not context to support it.
 

Duckybill

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Then why study anything?
Are you saying 'the rapture' subject is a matter of salvation? I see no reason to believe it is.

If you have read Paul's writings, there is no way in the world you could ask such a heretical question?
My question makes me a 'heretic'?
Paul, not only did not take the mark of the beast, he explains exactly why 'rapture' is a false religion. Rapture is Satan's doctrine.
My question in no way implied that Paul took the Mark!!! It was YOUR statement:

"Those that believe in Rapture have taken the mark of the beast!"
 

242006

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The question has been raised whether or not the belief in Rapture is cause enough for God to send a person to the Lake of Fire.

In reading Eze. 13:18-23, we see that God issues a 'woe' and is 'against' those that teach Rapture. In Isa. 28:5-13, we see that Rapture preachers and teachers, who are taught the Truth, are 'taken' [by Satan]. In 1 Pet. 4:17, we learn that preachers are judged first -- because, they are held accountable.

So, clearly, Rapture teachers and preachers are at jeopardy for a trip to the Lake of Fire based upon their false Rapture doctrine.
 

Duckybill

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So, clearly, Rapture teachers and preachers are at jeopardy for a trip to the Lake of Fire based upon their false Rapture doctrine.
Are you saying Paul is headed for the Lake of Fire?

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (NKJV)
[sup]15 [/sup]For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. [sup]16 [/sup]For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. [sup]17 [/sup]Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
 

242006

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Are you saying Paul is headed for the Lake of Fire?

Paul didn't teach Rapture. See 2 Thes. 2:2-4. Paul further goes on to explain to Rapture believers that they are 'damned'. See 2 Thes. 2:11-12.

[quote[1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (NKJV)
[sup]15 [/sup]For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. [sup]16 [/sup]For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. [sup]17 [/sup]Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
[/quote]

These scriptures do not declare a 'Rapture' of the church. Scroll through the posts herein this topic that debunk Rapture.