Who founded your church?

[Renniks]

Your statement above in RED is a gigantic contradiction.

You can't lose your salvation - but you CAN throw it away??
That is the SAME thing.

No it's not even close to the same. Losing salvation like you lose your car keys, because Oops! I had a really bad thought and didn't make it to the priest to repent before being hit by a car and dying...that's a legitimate concern under your doctrine. You don't lose salvation, but you can deliberately reject the Holy Spirit once and for all.

 

[Renniks]

WRONG again.

The language used at Florence may sound harsher - but it absolutely falls in line with Extra Ecclesiam Nula Salus.
This is about the Church's understanding of what constitutes the person's the votum or desire. If a person's implicit desire is to conform himself to the Truth - then he seeks to conform himself to Christ. This is why Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus states explicitly:

"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. " (Catechism of the Catholic Church)

Implicit desire is all that is needed.

Yeah that's why they murdered all those heretics who were genuinely seeking for truth but didn't fall in line with the churches doctrine.

 

[Marymog]

It was the CC's doctrines that led to burning people at the stake.

Which doctrine?

 

[Marymog]

Pieces of verses again. Reading comprehension is important!

Scripture says baptism saves. You say it doesn’t.
You deny what has been taught for 2,000 years and accept a 500 year teaching. Why?

 

[Renniks]

Scripture says baptism saves. You say it doesn’t.
You deny what has been taught for 2,000 years and accept a 500 year teaching. Why?

I accept what Scripture actually says. That faith alone saves.

If baptism were necessary for salvation then how do you deal with the paralytic man Mat_9:2, the penitent woman Luk_7:37-50, the tax collector Luk_18:13-14, and the thief on the cross Luk_23:39-43. Was Jesus just misleading them? Were they still lost in their sins since none were baptized?

Scripture has numerous texts that say forgiveness of sins is by faith alone Joh_1:12; Joh_3:16; Joh_3:36; Joh_6:47; Rom_10:9; Eph_1:13; Eph_2:8-9 to list just a few. Peter also gave us some of the clearest verses in this regard later in Acts Act_5:31; Act_10:43; Act_13:38-39; Act_16:31; Act_26:18. The weight of scripture points to faith being the only requirement for salvation. If you still insist that baptism is a requirement then how do you account for the experience of the gentiles in Act 10:44-48?

Jesus told people their faith saved them. I listen to him, not church tradition.

 

[Brakelite]

I feel bad for what the Protestants did to Michael Servetus and their other fellow Protestants

Yep. Me too.

 

[Renniks]

Which doctrine?

The doctrine that the church has the authority of Christ, imo.

 

[BreadOfLife]

No it's not even close to the same. Losing salvation like you lose your car keys, because Oops! I had a really bad thought and didn't make it to the priest to repent before being hit by a car and dying...that's a legitimate concern under your doctrine. You don't lose salvation, but you can deliberately reject the Holy Spirit once and for all.

And once again - you are either LYING through your teeth - or you're just really ignorant because that is NOT what the Catholic Church teaches.
And once again - I think it's a little of BOTH.

The Church has ALWAYS taught - as Scripture teaches us with the Thief on the cross, who couldn't be baptized because of his situation - that there are EXCEPTIONS. NOT everything fits into a neat little package - NOR does God require that it does.

However - YOUR belief that salvation is soething that you cannot lose by your own doing is Scripturally-Bankrupt . . .
(Matt. 7:19-23, Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 25:31–46, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 10:12, 1 Tim. 4:1, 1 Tim. 4:16, 2 Tim. 2:12, Heb. 3:6, Heb. 3:12-14, Heb 6:4-6, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 2:20-21, 2 Pet. 3:17, 1 John 2:24, 1 John 5:13, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19)

 

[Brakelite]

In the Early Middle Ages (c. 476-1000 CE) and throughout the High Middle Ages (1000-1300 CE) and Late Middle Ages (1300-1500 CE). The Catholic Church made it clear that one could only attain salvation and eternal life by following the precepts of the Church, and one’s alternative was an eternity in the torments of hell or a limited, but almost equally unpleasant, stay in the fires of purgatory where one’s sins were burnt away. Heaven, hell, and purgatory were regarded as absolute certainties after death and, since the Church made all the rules regarding where a soul would wind up, people were forced to accept the clergy’s atrocious behavior.

The Christian mass was recited in Latin, the Bible was in Latin, and prayers such as the Our Father and Hail Mary were taught to parishioners and memorized in Latin – a language none of the peasantry and few of the nobility understood. Christ’s ministry, as recorded in the gospels of the Bible, was therefore the sole property of the clergy who claimed only the Church could rightly understand the intentions of the Christian god and interpret them for others.
Of course from there, was only a matter of time before the burning of heretics began.
You tell me what doctrine led to this state of affairs. I believe it was the church thinking it was the authority, not Christ and not scripture.

And various teachings from such as Thomas Aquinas who justified the killing of heretics and stealing their land disowning several generations of children in the process.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yeah that's why they murdered all those heretics who were genuinely seeking for truth but didn't fall in line with the churches doctrine.

They did??
WHO did? The Church or the STATE?

WHO murdered all of those Catholics in the name of God, centuries AFTER the pagan Romans butchered so many?
If YOU actually believe that there is NO blood on Protestant hands - then you're either really dense oir just really disahonest . . .

 

[Brakelite]

Which doctrine?

Are you suggesting the the millions who died, the communities that were destroyed, the families decimated by the agents of the church were not persecuted because of doctrine???? Then why??????

Christ said the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church.

And those Gates haven't prevailed. Despite a large segment of the church falling away as Paul warned would take place, we're still here as a testimony to the truth that Jesus declared.

 

[Renniks]

And once again - you are either LYING through your teeth - or you're just really ignorant because that is NOT what the Catholic Church teaches.
And once again - I think it's a little of BOTH.

The Church has ALWAYS taught - as Scripture teaches us with the Thief on the cross, who couldn't be baptized because of his situation - that there are EXCEPTIONS. NOT everything fits into a neat little package - NOR does God require that it does.

However - YOUR belief that salvation is soething that you cannot lose by your own doing is Scripturally-Bankrupt . . .
(Matt. 7:19-23, Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 25:31–46, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 10:12, 1 Tim. 4:1, 1 Tim. 4:16, 2 Tim. 2:12, Heb. 3:6, Heb. 3:12-14, Heb 6:4-6, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 2:20-21, 2 Pet. 3:17, 1 John 2:24, 1 John 5:13, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19)

The verse snowing is ineffective... So let us pick one passage:
“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.

This about how to bear fruit not how to remain saved. But even if you interpret it that way, all it says that we have to remain in Christ. We cannot do otherwise if we truly believe.
And yes Catholic teaching is that works contribute to staying saved and that you can sin away salvation. Quit pretending otherwise. I've already quoted directly from Catholic.com that a person cannot break commandments and be saved. So if I commit adultery in my mind, I am damned instantly under your doctrine.

 

[Renniks]

They did??
WHO did? The Church or the STATE?

WHO murdered all of those Catholics in the name of God, centuries AFTER the pagan Romans butchered so many?
If YOU actually believe that there is NO blood on Protestant hands - then you're either really dense oir just really disahonest . . .

I never said protestants didn't kill people. Quit changing the subject.

 

[Brakelite]

They did??
WHO did? The Church or the STATE?

The state. With the church looking on to ensure they did the job completely and in full accordance with canon law. If the state didn't do their job, their rulers were excommunicated as a lesson and warning to others. If the prince was excommunicated, the superstitious populous fell into a state of terror because they were usually included in the condemnation. The idea that the state did anything contrary to papal dictates brought instant condemnation and sometimes war. Your desperate and constant attempts to have your church absolved from any responsibility despite her active and approving involvement are futile in the eyes of God who witnessed and recorded everything.

 

[BreadOfLife]

The verse snowing is ineffective... So let us pick one passage:
“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.

This about how to bear fruit not how to remain saved. But even if you interpret it that way, all it says that we have to remain in Christ. We cannot do otherwise if we truly believe.
And yes Catholic teaching is that works contribute to staying saved and that you can sin away salvation. Quit pretending otherwise. I've already quoted directly from Catholic.com that a person cannot break commandments and be saved. So if I commit adultery in my mind, I am damned instantly under your doctrine.

WRONG.
It's about BOTH.

Verse 7 explicitly states:
"If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

Jesus uses the SAME kind of language in the following verses.
In the Parable of the Weeds, He states:
Matt. 13:30
"Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, 'Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.'”

We see it AGAIN in the Parable of the Sheep and Goats:
Matt. 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

In each instance, He is referring to eternal damnation.
A "Saved" persen can INDEED lose their salvation by their own doing - and the Scriptures WARN us repeatedlty about this . . .
(Matt. 7:19-23, Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 25:31–46, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 10:12, 1 Tim. 4:1, 1 Tim. 4:16, 2 Tim. 2:12, Heb. 3:6, Heb. 3:12-14, Heb 6:4-6, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 2:20-21, 2 Pet. 3:17, 1 John 2:24, 1 John 5:13, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19)

 

[BreadOfLife]

The state. With the church looking on to ensure they did the job completely and in full accordance with canon law. If the state didn't do their job, their rulers were excommunicated as a lesson and warning to others. If the prince was excommunicated, the superstitious populous fell into a state of terror because they were usually included in the condemnation. The idea that the state did anything contrary to papal dictates brought instant condemnation and sometimes war. Your desperate and constant attempts to have your church absolved from any responsibility despite her active and approving involvement are futile in the eyes of God who witnessed and recorded everything.

First of all - heresy was bad for commerce. The STATE took matters into their OWN hands on many occasions for economic reasons.
Was this a "good" thing? Absolutely NOT - and neither was the murdering of countless hundreds of thousands of Catholics throughout Europe, either.

MY point was to show you the Protestant hypocrisy for condemning this sort of action - when YOUR Protestant Fathers were just as guilty.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I never said protestants didn't kill people. Quit changing the subject.

Hmmmmmmmm - I guess you were just blinded by hypocrisy . . .

 

[Marymog]

Are you suggesting the the millions who died, the communities that were destroyed, the families decimated by the agents of the church were not persecuted because of doctrine???? Then why??????.

@Renniks said: It was the CC's doctrines that led to burning people at the stake.

I asked: Which doctrine?

It sounds to me like you don’t have an answer to my question either.

I have another question: Which Protestant doctrine led them to burn other Protestants at the stake?

 

[Marymog]

And those Gates haven't prevailed. Despite a large segment of the church falling away as Paul warned would take place, we're still here as a testimony to the truth that Jesus declared.

Hey, we agree

The gates of hell have not prevailed against The Church even though some have fallen away from her since the 16th century she is still standing with sound doctrine.

 

[Marymog]

The doctrine that the church has the authority of Christ, imo.

Let me help you out here. If you follow the link below you can find every doctrine The Church has. Can you find that doctrine that allows The Church to burn people at the stake? After all, that is your claim. This is your chance to prove it:

The Holy See