Colossians 2:14-16 - The Law That Was Against Us

[GerhardEbersoehn]

If the seventh day sabbath is still in affect today, then why don't sabbatarians seek to obey ALL that the LORD commanded?

First, the Sabbath is very much <<in affect [Sic.]>> today! Heart breaking, but it is.

Nevertheless not all <<sabbatarians seek to obey ALL that the LORD commanded>>. Not all, are that stupid to try although many are.

To believe the Sabbath for that believer means that he believes in Jesus Christ who in deed and good pleasure of his Father obeyed and perfectly fulfilled ALL that the LORD God commanded in Full Fellowship of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. This does not mean the believer may not or must not or will not believe the things belonging to his Lord and Saviour, love it and take care of it. The believer has become co-heir with all believers of all the ages with Christ, of sonship, citizenship and the freedom of the Kingdom of God.

With Jesus "the Son of Man Lord of the Sabbath Day", KING IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD, shall not its redeemed and saved "People of God" honour their "Lord's Day" "the Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD"? And not do so by virtue of the Lord's RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD ON IT? Impossible even to imagine!

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

If the seventh day sabbath is still in affect today, then why don't sabbatarians seek to obey ALL that the LORD commanded? How can you keep a certain law when you only keep part of it? If the sabbath day laws were still in effect today, then according to (Exodus 31:12-18; 35:1-3; Numbers 15:32-36) anyone who profaned the sabbath was put to death and any person who does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from his people.

THESE LAWS ARE NOT THE SABBATH COMMANDMENT. Stop your nonsense!

 

[Brakelite]

@Marymog Hi Mary. The authority of scripture in comparison to the authority of the church or individuals who read the scripture and come to a certain or uncertain understanding is a popular topic with you huh, and certainly is a point of contention between Catholic and Protestant hermeneutics. May I ask you some questions?
Who is responsible for the choices you make regarding deciding your own destiny?
If you place that destiny in the hands of others...ala the church...will they be standing before God accepting that responsibility thus relieving you of all blame if things go pear shaped?
If it is correct (and scripture declares it so) that the church is the pillar and foundation of truth,

• Where does the authority come from that decides a certain tradition is sacred enough to displace the declared word of God, thus steering the church away from the original truth?
• What happens when Christ Himself is displaced as the sole Mediator between man and his Creator thus steering the church even further away from the original truth, so far in fact that the church begins to teach theistic evolution?
• what church carries that baton when the original pillar crumbles due to apostasy or error?
• If true that Peter was the first leader of the church, (there being some disagreement upon that point within historical circles) what evidence is there that Jesus intended that every descendant becomes the automatic bearer of the mantle, regardless whether that individual is actually even a Christian?
• Your church is a staunch opponent of the concept of once saved always saved, so you would agree that not only individuals, but whole churches can backslide completely into oblivion right? Yet they are still the pillar and foundation of truth? How can that be so?

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

It was the Pharisees who turned the Sabbath into a burden, adding restrictions beyond what God’s law said.

Indeed!

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

My commands to be obeyed are found in the New Testament and are for believers and not for Israel under the law of Moses. If you want to remain under the old covenant of law and pervert the gospel by teaching salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works, why don't you just say so and be done with it? Mixing the old and new covenants and law with grace is not obeying God, yet modern day Judaizers seem to believe they are the only one's who do obey God.

You talking to you as far as I am concerned, smug judge.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

The early church gathered on Sunday. (Acts 20:7; 1 Corinthians 16:2) You are stuck in the old covenant.

Stereotype MMD abuse - RAPE - of Holy Scripture.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

So you have no specific command in the New Testament for Gentiles to keep the sabbath? Thought so.
.....
For what purpose? For evangelism and not sabbath worship. Acts 13:43 "Now when the meeting of the synagogue had broken up, many of the Jews and of the God-fearing proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, were urging them to continue in the grace of God."

Acts 14:1 "In Iconium they entered the synagogue of the Jews together, and spoke in such a manner that a large number of people believed, both of Jews and of Greeks."

Acts 17:4 "And some of them were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, along with a large number of the God-fearing Greeks and a number of the leading women.

Acts 18:4 "And he was reasoning in the synagogue every Sabbath and trying to persuade Jews and Greeks."

"as a witness against ..." YOURSELF! It's sad, but thanks pointing it out yourself.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

 

[Marymog]

@Marymog Hi Mary. The authority of scripture in comparison to the authority of the church or individuals who read the scripture and come to a certain or uncertain understanding is a popular topic with you huh, and certainly is a point of contention between Catholic and Protestant hermeneutics. May I ask you some questions?
Who is responsible for the choices you make regarding deciding your own destiny?
If you place that destiny in the hands of others...ala the church...will they be standing before God accepting that responsibility thus relieving you of all blame if things go pear shaped?
If it is correct (and scripture declares it so) that the church is the pillar and foundation of truth,

• Where does the authority come from that decides a certain tradition is sacred enough to displace the declared word of God, thus steering the church away from the original truth?
• What happens when Christ Himself is displaced as the sole Mediator between man and his Creator thus steering the church even further away from the original truth, so far in fact that the church begins to teach theistic evolution?
• what church carries that baton when the original pillar crumbles due to apostasy or error?
• If true that Peter was the first leader of the church, (there being some disagreement upon that point within historical circles) what evidence is there that Jesus intended that every descendant becomes the automatic bearer of the mantle, regardless whether that individual is actually even a Christian?
• Your church is a staunch opponent of the concept of once saved always saved, so you would agree that not only individuals, but whole churches can backslide completely into oblivion right? Yet they are still the pillar and foundation of truth? How can that be so?

A person can backslide but not the pillar and foundation.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Note on the day of Pentecost, a Sunday God's people were commanded to worship. God says, "On this same day you shall make a proclamation as well; you are to have a holy convocation. You shall do no laborious work. It is to be perpetual statute in all your dwelling places throughout your generations." (Leviticus 23:2)

That on the day of Pentecost, it was
a Sunday -- in the OT --
is a LIE.
Chances that on the day of Pentecost it
could have been on the First Day of the week
at most was 1 in 7.
In the case of Leviticus 23:2 the chances
that the day of Pentecost fell
on the First Day of the week,
is zero
to this day.
It fell on the weekly Sabbath Day
the seventh "SABBATH" after
the actual historical "SABBATH"
on the third day of BONE DAY
the 16th day of the First Month,
the fiftieth day after -- 'Pentecost'.
As sure as words are formed of letters that kill
rather than be killed.
Because that is the Written WORD OF GOD.

 

[Marymog]

@Marymog Hi Mary. The authority of scripture in comparison to the authority of the church or individuals who read the scripture and come to a certain or uncertain understanding is a popular topic with you huh, and certainly is a point of contention between Catholic and Protestant hermeneutics. May I ask you some questions?
Who is responsible for the choices you make regarding deciding your own destiny?
If you place that destiny in the hands of others...ala the church...will they be standing before God accepting that responsibility thus relieving you of all blame if things go pear shaped?
If it is correct (and scripture declares it so) that the church is the pillar and foundation of truth,

• Where does the authority come from that decides a certain tradition is sacred enough to displace the declared word of God, thus steering the church away from the original truth?
• What happens when Christ Himself is displaced as the sole Mediator between man and his Creator thus steering the church even further away from the original truth, so far in fact that the church begins to teach theistic evolution?
• what church carries that baton when the original pillar crumbles due to apostasy or error?
• If true that Peter was the first leader of the church, (there being some disagreement upon that point within historical circles) what evidence is there that Jesus intended that every descendant becomes the automatic bearer of the mantle, regardless whether that individual is actually even a Christian?
• Your church is a staunch opponent of the concept of once saved always saved, so you would agree that not only individuals, but whole churches can backslide completely into oblivion right? Yet they are still the pillar and foundation of truth? How can that be so?

Here are a few passages that destroys the teaching the men of the Reformation gave you:

Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.

Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine.

But we ask you, brothers, to acknowledge those who work diligently among you, who preside over you in the Lord and give you instruction.

Keep watch over yourselves and the entire flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which He purchased with His own blood.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Passover to Pentecost

Day of Sabbath’s rest and joy Exodus 15.

“And the people came up out of Jordan on the tenth Day of the First Month and encamped in Gilgal in the east border of Jericho.” Joshua 4:19. “The LORD thy GOD brought thee out thence through a Mighty Hand his stretched out Arm: therefore the LORD thy GOD commanded thee to keep the Sabbath.” Deuteronomy 5:15. “In the beginning of the year in the tenth day of the (First) Month in the Selfsame Whole Day BONE-DAY the Hand of the LORD was upon Me and brought Me thither.” Ezekiel 40:1.

Leviticus 23
9 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
9 καὶ ἐλάλησε κύριος πρὸς Μωυσήν λέγων

10a Speak unto the sons of Israel
10a [דַּבֵּ֞ר dab·bêr][אֶל־ ’el-][בְּנֵ֤י bə·nê][ יִשְׂרָאֵל֙ yiś·rā·’êl]
10a είπον τοις ὑιοίς Ισραὴλ

and say unto them
[וְאָמַרְתָּ֣ wə·’ā·mar·tā][אֲלֵהֶ֔ם ’ă·lê·hem]
και ìερείς πρὸς αυτούς

The Fifth Day of the week Day of sacrifice.....
“the fourteenth day of the First Month”
Ex12:6;14 Lv23:5; 21,22; 10,11a Joshua 4: 5:10

10b When you are come in the land that
[כִּֽי־ kî-][תָבֹ֣אוּ ṯā·ḇō·’ū][אֶל־ ’el-][הָאָ֗רֶץ hā·’ā·reṣ][אֲשֶׁ֤ר ’ă·šer]
Όταν εισέλθητε εις την γην ην

I give to you
[אֲנִי֙ ’ă·nî][נֹתֵ֣ן nō·ṯên][לָכֶ֔ם lā·ḵem]
εγώ δίδωμι υμίν

and would reap the harvest, then, you shall bring offering
[וּקְצַרְתֶּ֖ם* ūqəṣartem][אֶת־ ’eṯ-][קְצִירָ֑הּ qəṣîrāh][וַהֲבֵאתֶ֥ם* wahăḇêṯem]
Και θερίζητε τον θερισμόν αυτής και οίσετε

a / the sheaf of the (yearly) firstfruits of your harvest
[אֶת־ ’eṯ-][עֹ֛מֶר ‘ō·mer][רֵאשִׁ֥ית rê·šîṯ][קְצִירְכֶ֖ם qə·ṣî·rə·ḵem]
το δράγμα απαρχήν του θερισμού υμών

unto the priest,
[אֶל־ ’el-][הַכֹּהֵֽן׃ hak·kō·hên.]
προς τον ιερέα

21 ye shall proclaim the BONE-DAY the Selfsame
[וּקְרָאתֶ֞ם* ūqərāṯem][בְּעֶ֣צֶם bə‘eṣem][הַיּ֣וֹם hayyōwm][הַזֶּ֗ה hazzeh]

(that) an assembly holy it may be to you always
[מִֽקְרָא־ miqrā-][קֹ֙דֶשׁ֙ qōḏeš][יִהְיֶ֣ה yihyeh][לָכֶ֔ם lāḵem][כָּל־ kāl-]
you shall call this day[1] a convocation it shall be holy to you.
καλέσετε ταύτην την ημέραν[1] κλητή αγία έσται υμίν

No regular work shall you do [therein: it shall be] a statute
[מְלֶ֥אכֶת mə·le·ḵeṯ][עֲבֹדָ֖ה ‘ă·ḇō·ḏāh][לֹ֣א lō][תַעֲשׂ֑וּ ṯa·‘ă·śū][חֻקַּ֥ת ḥuq·qaṯ]
No servile work you shall not do on it; it is a law eternal
Παν έργον λατρευτόν ου ποιήσετε εν αυτή νόμιμον αιώνιον

forever in all your dwellings [institutionalised worship]
[עוֹלָ֛ם ‘ōwlām][בְּכָל־ bəḵāl][מוֹשְׁבֹ֥תֵיכֶ֖ם mōwōšəḇōṯêḵem]

throughout your generations [settled],
[לְדֹרֹֽתֵיכֶֽם׃ lə·ḏō·rō·ṯê·ḵem.]

to your people in all your dwellings (worship).
εις τας γενεάς υμών εν πάση κατοικία υμών.

22 and you cut off, level, reap[2a] the harvest of your land
[וּֽבְקֻצְרְכֶ֞ם* ū·ḇə·quṣ·rə·ḵem][קְצִ֣יר qə·ṣîr][אַרְצְכֶ֗ם ’ar·ṣə·ḵem]

and pick up, gather, bind the land’s spring harvest and bring in
καὶ θερίζητε[1] τὸν θερισμὸν αυτῆς καὶ οίσετε[2b]

the first sheaf of your harvest to the priest.
το δράγμα ἀπαρχὴν του θερισμού ὑμών πρὸς τὸν ìερέα.

Do not make clean riddance of the corners of your field
[לֹֽא־ lō-][תְכַלֶּ֞ה ṯə·ḵal·leh][פְּאַ֤ת pə·’aṯ][שָֽׂדְךָ֙ śā·ḏə·ḵā]

when you reap, gleanings of your harvest
[וּֽקְרָאתֶ֞ם ū·ḇə·quṣ·rə·ḵem][וְלֶ֥קֶט wə·le·qeṭ][קְצִירְךָ֖ qə·ṣî·rə·ḵā]

you shall not gather them; to the Poor and to the Stranger
[לֹ֣א lō][תְלַקֵּ֑ט ṯə·laq·qêṭ] [לֶֽעָנִ֤י le·‘ā·nî][וְלַגֵּר֙ wə·lag·gêr]

you shall leave them I [am] the LORD your God
[תַּעֲזֹ֣ב ta‘ăzōḇ][אֹתָ֔ם ’ōṯām][אֲנִ֖י ’ănî][יְהוָ֥ה Yah·weh][אֱלֹהֵיכֶֽם׃ ’ĕlōhêḵem.]
. day of sacrifice .

Sixth Day of the week Bringing in the sheaf ....BURIAL....
“the fifteenth day of the First Month” “the Selfsame BONE Day”
Ex12:8-18,41,42,51;13:3-14 Lv23:6-8, 21,22; 10c,11a,14 Nb33:3-8 Dt6:20-25 Acts2:25-35 Mk15:42,46 Mt27:59 Jn19:38,40,42 1Cor15:4

11A And he shall lay prostate* the sheaf before` the LORD
[וְהֵנִ֧יף*wəhênîp̄][אֶת־’eṯ-][הָעֹ֛מֶרhā‘ōmer][לִפְנֵ֥יlip̄nê][יְהוָ֖הYahweh]
11A And he shall lay the sheaf open[3]
11A Καὶ ἀνοίσει[3] τὸ δράγμα

before the LORD to be accepted[4] for you.
[לִֽרְצֹנְכֶ֑ם lir·ṣō·nə·ḵem.]

lay the sheaf down before the LORD in store for you.
καὶ ἀνοίσει τὸ δράγμα ἔναντι Κυρίου δεκτόν ὑμίν.
| Sheaf brought in ... BURIED |

Sheaf revealed and moved BEFORE THE LORD
The Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD GOD
“The sixteenth day of the First Month” “first” “day counted” to the “fiftieth day”
Ex14:13-15:21 Lv23:6 2Chr29:17

11B The day-after the sabbath the first day (ye shall count),
[מִֽמָּחֳרַת֙ mim·mā·ḥo·raṯ][5] [הַשַּׁבָּ֔ת haš·šab·bāṯ]

ye shall have it WAVED by the priest, (and)
[יְנִיפֶ֖נּוּ* yə·nî·p̄en·nū][הַכֹּהֵֽן׃ hak·kō·hên.]
the priest shall REVEAL[7] it again.
11B Τῇ ἐπαύριον τῆς πρώτης[6] ἀνοίσει[7] αυτὸ ὁ ìερεύς.

12 And you shall present on That Day[9] when you WAVE[8] it,
[וַעֲשִׂיתֶ֕ם wa·‘ă·śî·ṯem][בְּי֥וֹם bə·yō·wm][הֲנִֽיפְכֶ֖ם hă·nî·p̄ə·ḵem][אֶת־ ’eṯ-]
12 καὶ ποιήσετε ἐν τῇ ἡμέρᾳ[9] ῇ ἄν φέρητε[8] τὸ δράγμα

(with) the SHEAF, a lamb, without blemish, a male of one year
[הָעֹ֑מֶר hā·‘ō·mer][כֶּ֣בֶשׂ ke·ḇeś][תָּמִ֧ים tā·mîm][בֶּן־ ben-][שְׁנָת֛וֹ šə·nā·ṯōw]

for a burnt offering to the LORD.
[לְעֹלָ֖ה lə·‘ō·lāh][לַיהוָֽה׃ Yah·weh.]

13 and the grain offering [shall be] thereof two tenth deals
[וּמִנְחָתוֹ֩* ū·min·ḥā·ṯōw][שְׁנֵ֨י šə·nê][עֶשְׂרֹנִ֜ים ‘eś·rō·nîm]
13 with its sacrifice two tenths of fine flour
13 και την θυσίαν αυτού δύο δέκατα σεμιδάλεως

of fine flour mixed with oil an offering made by fire
[סֹ֣לֶת sō·leṯ][בְּלוּלָ֥ה bə·lū·lāh][בַשֶּׁ֛מֶן ḇaš·še·men][אִשֶּׁ֥ה ’iš·šeh]

being prepared in olive oil, a Offering to the Lord for a scent
αναπεποιημένης εν ελαίω θυσίαν τω Κυρίω εις οσμήν

to the LORD, a savor, sweet, and the drink an Offering
[לַיהוָ֖ה Yah·weh][רֵ֣יחַ rê·aḥ][נִיחֹ֑חַ nî·ḥō·aḥ][וְנִסְכֹּ֥ה wə·nis·kōh]
of pleasant aroma to the Lord
οίνου ευωδίας τω Κυρίω

thereof of wine a fourth [part] of a hin
[יַ֖יִן ya·yin][רְבִיעִ֥ת rə·ḇî·‘iṯ][הַהִֽין׃ ha·hîn.]
and its libation to the fourth of wine one hin
και σπονδήν αυτού το τέταρτον του ιν

14 and bread nor parched grain nor green ears, neither,
[וְלֶחֶם֩ wə·le·ḥem][וְקָלִ֨י wə·qā·lî][וְכַרְמֶ֜ל wə·ḵar·mel][לֹ֣א lō]
14 and bread and parched green new wheat you shall eat
14 και άρτον και πεφρυγμένα χίδρα νέα ου φάγεσθε

You shall eat at BONE the DAY the Selfsame
[תֹֽאכְל֗וּ ṯōḵəlū][עַד־ ‘aḏ-][עֶ֙צֶם֙ ‘etṣem][הַיּ֣וֹם hayyōwm][הַזֶּ֔ה hazzeh]
until when you shall offer to your God lawful gift eternally
έως αν προσενέγκητε υμεις τα δώρα τω θεώ υμών νόμιμον αιώνιον

until you have brought an offering to your God
[עַ֚ד ‘aḏ][הֲבִ֣יאֲכֶ֔ם hăḇî’ăḵem][אֶת־ ’eṯ-][קָרְבַּ֖ן qārəban][אֱלֹהֵיכֶ֑ם ’ĕlōhêḵem]

[it shall be] a statute forever throughout your generations
[חֻקַּ֤ת ḥuq·qaṯ][עוֹלָם֙ ‘ō·w·lām][לְדֹרֹ֣תֵיכֶ֔ם lə·ḏō·rō·ṯê·ḵem]

in all your dwellings (of institutionalised worship)
[בְּכֹ֖ל bə·ḵōl][מֹשְׁבֹֽתֵיכֶֽם׃ mō·šə·ḇō·ṯê·ḵem.]
to your generations in all your dwellings
εις τας γενεάς υμών εν πάση κατοικία υμών

while BONE-DAY the day the Selfsame.
[עֶ֙צֶם֙ ‘e·ṣem הַיּ֣וֹם hay·yō·wm הַזֶּ֔ה haz·zeh.
until THIS THAT selfsame DAY.
έως εις αυτήν ημέραν ταύτην.

15a And you shall count for yourself from the day after
[וּסְפַרְתֶּ֤ם ūr·sǝ·par·tem לָכֶם֙ lā·ḵem][מִמָּחֳרַ֣ת* mim·mā·ḥo·raṯ]
15 και αριθμήσετε υμίν από της επαύριον[10]
the sabbath (“great day of” passover feast John 19:31).

[הַשַּׁבָּ֔ת ha·šab·bāṯ]
των σαββάτων. [11]
| Sheaf Revealed and Moved BEFORE THE LORD |

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Feast of Sabbaths’-Weeks of Winter Harvest.....

15b from the day that you brought (it) the sheaf
[מִיּוֹם֙ mî·yō·wm][הֲבִ֣יאֲכֶ֔םאֶת־ hă·ḇî·’ă·ḵem’eṯ-][עֹ֖מֶר ‘ō·mer]
από της ημέρας ης αν προσενέγκητε το δράγμα

of the increase offering (you shall count for yourself)
[הַתְּנוּפָ֑ה hat·tə·nū·p̄āh][לָכֶם֙ lā·ḵem]
του επιθέματος (αριθμήσετε υμίν)

seven Sabbaths-weeks complete there shall be
[שֶׁ֥בַע še·ḇa‘ שַׁבָּת֖וֹת šab·bā·ṯō·wṯ תְּמִימֹ֥ת tə·mî·mōṯ תִּהְיֶֽינָה׃ tih·ye·nāh]
έπτά εβδομάδας ολοκλήρους - periods of seven entire[12]

16a Even to the (Sabbath)day after the seventh Sabbath-week
[עַ֣ד ‘ad מִֽמָּחֳרַ֤ת mim·mā·ḥo·raṯ הַשַּׁבָּת֙ haš·šab·bāṯ הַשְּׁבִיעִ֔ת haš·šə·ḇî·‘iṯ]

shall you number fifty days.
[תִּסְפְּר֖וּ tis·pə·rū חֲמִשִּׁ֣ים ḥă·miš·šîm י֑וֹם yō·wm]
αριθμήσετε πεντήκοντα ημέρας

[[LXX error until the next day of the last period of seven[13] you shall count fifty days
έως της επαύριον της εσχάτης έβδομάδος[13] αριθμήσετε πεντήκοντα ημέρας]]
| feast of weeks of harvest full |

The Sabbath
Shavuot Pentecost

16b and you shall offer a grain offering new to the LORD.
[וְהִקְרַבְתֶּ֛םwəhiqraḇtem מִנְחָ֥הminḥāh חֲדָשָׁ֖הḥăḏāšāh לַיהוָֽה׃Yahweh]
and you shall bring sacrifice offering a new to the Lord.
και προσοίσετε θυσίαν νέαν τω κυρίω.

17 From your dwelling 19 Then you shall sacrifice
[עֲשִׂיתֶ֛ם wa·‘ă·śî·ṯem מִמּוֹשְׁבֹ֨תֵיכֶ֜ם mim·mō·wō·šǝ·bō·tê·kem]

you shall bring two loaves wave bread
[תָּבִ֣יאּוּ tā·ḇî’·’ū שְׁ֚תַּיִם ta·yim לֶ֣חֶם le·ḥem תְּנוּפָ֗ה tə·nū·p̄āh]

two tenth deals of fine flour they shall be with leaven
[שְׁנֵ֣י šə·nê עֶשְׂרֹנִ֔ים ‘eś·rō·nîm סֹ֣לֶת sō·leṯ תִּהְיֶ֔ינָה tih·ye·nāh חָמֵ֖ץ ḥā·mêṣ]

They shall be baked first fruits to Yahweh.
[תֵּאָפֶ֑ינָה tê·’ā·p̄e·nāh בִּכּוּרִ֖ים bik·kū·rîm לַֽיהוָֽה׃ Yah·weh]

18 And you shall offer
[וְהִקְרַבְתֶּ֣ם wə·hiq·raḇ·tem

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
If a person committed a sin, sin that is a transgression of a given commandment in the law, he will be judged by the law and suffer the penalty, that is, if at all he was caught and proven guilty of trespassing the law.

Yes, but there was also Grace under the Law. They could confess their sin, and make restitution, and offer offerings to God, and have their sins remitted.

No one denies that there is grace under the law, even before the law. Only that grace is not all the same.

I suppose that's the whole point I'm trying to make, that the Faith and Grace present under the Law could not achieve the Faith and Grace associated with obtaining Eternal Life. The Law was not designed to achieve that kind of Faith because it did not provide for an equivalent consequence between Israel's behavior and Eternal Life. That would always have to be based on Grace, and the Grace under the Law was limited by the Law.

<<<that the Faith and Grace present under the Law could not achieve the Faith and Grace associated with obtaining Eternal Life.>>>

Faith and grace.....could not achieve faith and grace ....? How is that?

<<<The Law was not designed to achieve that kind of Faith>>>

The Law.......achieve.....kind of faith? I can’t understand.

The Law did not offer Christ's work to achieve Eternal Life because he had not come yet. Clearly, the Law did not provide the consequent reward of faith until the work, achieving that, had actually been done! That is precisely what Paul meant by saying "faith had not yet come."

He was saying that the work earning eternal life had not yet been done. He meant that our faith had no object, with respect to eternal life, until Christ's work had been accomplished. That "faith" had not yet come. We could not believe in that work until that work had actually been done.

As I said in my other reply post to you, the law was given to Israel not for the intention that through it, they will obtain eternal life. With regards salvation, it was given to keep them under guard and bring them to Christ, and have faith, by which they might be justified, in like sense that Abraham was justified by faith. And also, that the law was a shadow of realities that are in Christ and will be brought by Christ and be revealed through Him and in Him.

<<<the Law did not provide the consequent reward of faith....>>>

I am not sure if I get that right. Nonetheless, let me just comment based on what I am getting out of that. I don’t have that view on faith, as getting a reward for it ~ reward of faith. In my view, faith (the kind that is from God) by itself is grace from God. It is simply through which God saves the man or through which man is saved. It is not something that man does to get a reward for doing it.

<<<He was saying that the work earning eternal life had not yet been done.>>>

My view of eternal is that it is a gift of God ~ grace. While it is something to obtain for man, man is not able to because of his sinful nature. As it is, man could only obtain it, by the grace of God, as a gift to him.

Tong
R1675

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
I agree that the Law of Moses made no provision for obtaining eternal life.

But I don’t quite agree that the Law showed a way for Israel to please God. God was not pleased that any is stoned to death or cut off from his people, nor did He desire sacrifice and offering, nor He had pleasure in burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin. In some sense perhaps, that is, if they would have kept the two greatest commandment (love God and neighbor) in the law.

I'm hoping you will change your way of looking at this? Marcionism was a problem in the Early Church, and he advocated for a two god solution to the problem of the apparent contradictory systems of Law and Grace. We have had that problem in our own local church, the pastor claiming that God no longer judges men in the NT era, since He has become "the God of Grace."

That makes God into a schizophrenic, being evil in the OT or at best flaky, and in the NT "loving." There is a better answer to this in the way I'm describing it. Grace was active under the Law, and God can be uncompromising when men are hard-hearted. But God can also be gracious when we amend our ways and consecrate our lives to Him.

Well I did not mean to say that God no longer judges men in the NT era.

What I meant to say is that, men of the past, before the NT, with faith pleased God, as was with Abraham. That is why I said that the law was not given by God as showing a way for Israel to please Him. Only through faith will man be able to please God. The only thing that I can think of that it could be said that the Law showed a way for Israel to please God, is that the Law is that which could bring them to faith (that comes from God through Jesus Christ). And that having faith, with it , pleases God who justifies them (justified by faith as Abraham was, through faith).

Tong
R1676

 

[Tong2020]

Why say such a thing? Aren’t you a Christian?

Tong
R1677

 

[Tong2020]

Hey Randy,

When I read Scripture I don't see it as letting me decide for myself. I see scripture saying that The Church decides for all of us what we are to believe. I.E. The Council of Jerusalem and in Matthew 18:17.

How do you interpret The Council of Jerusalem in Acts and Matthew 18:17? Do you interpret those passages that we all get to decide for ourselves what we want to believe??

Mary

@Marymog, I understand what you see in your reading. However, I see it differently in my reading.

On your questions, I interpret it as with regards the early church. Those chosen directly by God, the apostles, find themselves tasked with maintaining harmony, peace, and unity among the brethren, which at the time grows daily as fast as the gospel is preached to every nation and people. And so, with the case at hand then, as there was no small trouble brewing up among the brethren, they came with one mind, to write to the church what they seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to them is to be done to resolve the matter, and settle the case, at the same time prevent what could have been a disaster for the church. For regarding the gospel, the truth is very clear to them who received it from Jesus Himself and from the Holy Spirit. They were not there interpreting the truth, rather, they are upholding it and are united in it, and have the same mind, and rightfully testifies to the truth, being actual witnesses of it themselves. And before their passing away, with God’s way and inspiration, they had written about the gospel and of the things of the Spirit of God which they received from God by special revelation. So that, even after they passed away, those scriptures will be testimony of the gospel they preached and of the truth. It is in those scriptures, together with the rest of the inspired scriptures written before Christ, that we go to, for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

Tong
R1678

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Temporarily justified?

Romans 4:2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

That does not at all sounded temporary to me. I don’t subscribe to such idea of temporary justification. Either he was justified even then or not until later after Christ died on the cross. It is God who justifies. When He justified Abraham, He was justified. For God, there really is not a past or a future.

He was really justified, but not in terms of receiving eternal life. Nobody received eternal life in the OT. Christ had to die for that to happen.

What the Scriptures are saying here is that the basis for *any* genuine justification requires faith of the kind that genuinely repents and embraces God's way in place of one's own independent way. They are *not* saying that Abraham had eternal life when he displayed and practiced faith.

Faith is simply the only basis by which man may please God. "Without faith it is impossible to please God." It was indeed possible to please God in the OT era, before Christ provided us with atonement. But until Christ provided that atonement, no matter how much we pleased God we did not yet have eternal life. Christ had to come and become the object of our faith for that to happen.

If Abraham did not have eternal life in the OT the basis of his righteousness did not yet provide for eternal righteousness. It was temporary until the object of his faith could be placed in the work of Christ. He was not *eternally justified* until Christ died on the cross. His righteousness was genuine and accepted on a temporary basis because it could not achieve eternal life until after Christ provided him with atonement.

Abraham was justified there and then, not temporarily even. For it is God who justifies. And when He justifies one, he is justified. Regarding the eternal life, it is also God who gives it, and that, as a gift. And to whom He gives it and have given it, that one would have it. And I believe Abraham was given the gift of eternal life even then. For even then, God has prepared a city, a heavenly country, for all of the men and women of faith, both before and after Christ.

That is not to say that God ignores the work of Jesus Christ regarding that. But that with God, there really is no past and future. Does God wait for the work of Christ before He could give Abraham eternal life? I don’t believe so that is the case with God.

Tong
R1679