The Case Against the Trinity

[Wrangler]

what drew you toward Unitarianism? (not to be answered in a single post ...) Trinitarians are so captured by their idolatry, they cannot consider anyone accepting Jesus as their Savior while holding there is only one God who is one being/person. Indeed, the emotion behind the 'man is God thesis' is so powerful, many trinitarians fail to recognize that any Bible verse that seems to support this 4th century heresy does nothing to advance the cause of 3is1ism as that would still only be 2.

To answer the question; Trinitarianism was always a detestable abomination to my intellect based on the following pathways of thinking.
A. The 1C. It must be important if God put it first and used singular pronoun and I cannot think of who it would especially apply to more than the Son.
B. Rejection of mysticism/dualism. 1 ≠ 2 ≠ 3. Or 1 + 1 + 1 = 1 and 1 = 1 + 1.
C. Definition, logic, & language. Consider the statement, "Jesus (the son) was raised from the dead by God (the father) to be the first fruits and is our only Mediator to God."

1. Father. Son. By definition, not the same. And son is created by the father. No exceptions to this prerequisite arrangement. If this is not their relationship, then words mean nothing.
2. Jesus said God is greater, more knowledgable & more glorious. By definition, these cannot be one and the same.
3. God incarnate is not prophesied in the OT. It's not even implied in the vast majority of the NT text.
4. The trinity is not in the Bible & Jesus never said to worship a triune God.
5. Subject v object of sentence. Jesus has many titles. Many of them are 'of God.' The umbrella of Bob is not Bob. "I drank from the cup" ≠ "I told my servant to drink from the cup and he drank from it."
6. Raised from the dead means Jesus was acted upon, the object of action by the subject, God. By definition, this is not the same as Jesus rose from the dead, doing the action himself.
7. "First" implies a coming series of like. My first girlfriend was like others that followed. She was not fundamentally different from those that followed. We don't count Apples and Oranges as Apples.
8. A mediator acts between 2 parties. A mediator, by definition, is not also one of the 2 parties he is mediating for.

I like magic, superpowers, etc. However, not even God can violate logic. For instance, He cannot be all-knowing and get lost. He cannot be all powerful and actually suffer & die as Jesus did. He cannot be all holy and sinful. The resurrected Jesus would not say he is going to his God if he were God incarnate for the same reason that one cannot sit on their own right side. This is because in reality contradictions do not exist. I hope that answers the question.


I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
Galileo Galilei

 

[Billy Evmur]

The bible says Jesus is God.

 

[JohnDB]

To answer the question; Trinitarianism was always a detestable abomination to my intellect based on the following pathways of thinking

And that would be denying the deity of Christ...
Which would be part and parcel with the antichrist.

 

[Wrangler]

The bible says Jesus is God.

No. The Bible does not say this. Even if the Bible did say this, as was pointed out in the OP, 2 does not a trinity make.

And that would be denying the deity of Christ...
Which would be part and parcel with the antichrist.

Nonsense. Pure trinitarian nonsense. I am anti-trinitarian, not anti-christ. Again, the trinitarians hold to their idolatry so fiercely, they equate the two. Who raised Jesus from the dead? God, not 'the Father.' God, in his unitarian nature, raised Jesus from the dead.


29 “When they had done all that the prophecies said about him, they took him down from the cross and placed him in a tomb. 30 But God raised him from the dead! 31 And over a period of many days he appeared to those who had gone with him from Galilee to Jerusalem. They are now his witnesses to the people of Israel.

32 “And now we are here to bring you this Good News. The promise was made to our ancestors, 33 and God has now fulfilled it for us, their descendants, by raising Jesus. This is what the second psalm says about Jesus:

‘You are my Son.
Today I have become your Father.’
Acts 13:29-33 (NLT)

 

[Billy Evmur]

No. The Bible does not say this. Even if the Bible did say this, as was pointed out in the OP, 2 does not a trinity make.



Nonsense. Pure trinitarian nonsense. I am anti-trinitarian, not anti-christ. Again, the trinitarians hold to their idolatry so fiercely, they equate the two. Who raised Jesus from the dead? God, not 'the Father.' God, in his unitarian nature, raised Jesus from the dead.


29 “When they had done all that the prophecies said about him, they took him down from the cross and placed him in a tomb. 30 But God raised him from the dead! 31 And over a period of many days he appeared to those who had gone with him from Galilee to Jerusalem. They are now his witnesses to the people of Israel.

32 “And now we are here to bring you this Good News. The promise was made to our ancestors, 33 and God has now fulfilled it for us, their descendants, by raising Jesus. This is what the second psalm says about Jesus:

‘You are my Son.
Today I have become your Father.’
Acts 13:29-33 (NLT)

To deny that Jesus is God is anti christ, the bible says He is. He created you.

 

[Billy Evmur]

To deny that Jesus is God is anti christ, the bible says He is. He created you.

The Holy Spirit is God.

 

[Wrangler]

To deny that Jesus is God is anti christ, the bible says He is.

Repeating this does not make it true. Do you grasp that the 'man is God' thesis does not make a trinity? The Bible does not say Jesus raised himself; it says God raised Jesus. Does this mean anything to you?

 

[Billy Evmur]

Repeating this does not make it true. Do you grasp that the 'man is God' thesis does not make a trinity? The Bible does not say Jesus raised himself; it says God raised Jesus. Does this mean anything to you?

God the Father raised the Son

God demands that we honour the Son even as the Father is honoured.

Only begotten Son = God

In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God.

 

[amadeus]

Repeating this does not make it true. Do you grasp that the 'man is God' thesis does not make a trinity? The Bible does not say Jesus raised himself; it says God raised Jesus. Does this mean anything to you?

Indeed if God set Jesus over all even as Pharaoh set Joseph over all! Why could it not be so? Can God effectively give such power to a lesser being? Is that beyond God? Who would limit God?

"Thou shalt be over my house, and according unto thy word shall all my people be ruled: only in the throne will I be greater than thou.
And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, See, I have set thee over all the land of Egypt." Gen 41:40-41

@Wrangler I am not saying that you must be right, but on the other hand, you are not wrong simply because someone says you are wrong? Who is able to hear what God has to say about it?

 

[dev553344]

what drew you toward Unitarianism? (not to be answered in a single post ...) Trinitarians are so captured by their idolatry, they cannot consider anyone accepting Jesus as their Savior while holding there is only one God who is one being/person. Indeed, the emotion behind the 'man is God thesis' is so powerful, many trinitarians fail to recognize that any Bible verse that seems to support this 4th century heresy does nothing to advance the cause of 3is1ism as that would still only be 2.

To answer the question; Trinitarianism was always a detestable abomination to my intellect based on the following pathways of thinking.
A. The 1C. It must be important if God put it first and used singular pronoun and I cannot think of who it would especially apply to more than the Son.
B. Rejection of mysticism/dualism. 1 ≠ 2 ≠ 3. Or 1 + 1 + 1 = 1 and 1 = 1 + 1.
C. Definition, logic, & language. Consider the statement, "Jesus (the son) was raised from the dead by God (the father) to be the first fruits and is our only Mediator to God."

1. Father. Son. By definition, not the same. And son is created by the father. No exceptions to this prerequisite arrangement. If this is not their relationship, then words mean nothing.
2. Jesus said God is greater, more knowledgable & more glorious. By definition, these cannot be one and the same.
3. God incarnate is not prophesied in the OT. It's not even implied in the vast majority of the NT text.
4. The trinity is not in the Bible & Jesus never said to worship a triune God.
5. Subject v object of sentence. Jesus has many titles. Many of them are 'of God.' The umbrella of Bob is not Bob. "I drank from the cup" ≠ "I told my servant to drink from the cup and he drank from it."
6. Raised from the dead means Jesus was acted upon, the object of action by the subject, God. By definition, this is not the same as Jesus rose from the dead, doing the action himself.
7. "First" implies a coming series of like. My first girlfriend was like others that followed. She was not fundamentally different from those that followed. We don't count Apples and Oranges as Apples.
8. A mediator acts between 2 parties. A mediator, by definition, is not also one of the 2 parties he is mediating for.

I like magic, superpowers, etc. However, not even God can violate logic. For instance, He cannot be all-knowing and get lost. He cannot be all powerful and actually suffer & die as Jesus did. He cannot be all holy and sinful. The resurrected Jesus would not say he is going to his God if he were God incarnate for the same reason that one cannot sit on their own right side. This is because in reality contradictions do not exist. I hope that answers the question. View attachment 13365


I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
Galileo Galilei

I think you have to define what a God is. That which is the God in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit flows from the same source. They are one God, and there is a Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

God
/ɡäd/

Learn to pronounce

See definitions in:
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theatre · informal
noun
noun: God; noun: god; plural noun: gods; plural noun: the gods

1. 1.
   (in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.
2. 2.
   (in certain other religions) a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity.

 

[JohnDB]

And here we have yet another troll...

Don't these people have anything else better to do?

How boring.

I'm getting tired of using the ignore button.

 

[justbyfaith]

The case for the Trinity can be found in posts #1-#6 of the following thread:

True Trinity.

 

[justbyfaith]

1 ≠ 2 ≠ 3. Or 1 + 1 + 1 = 1 and 1 = 1 + 1.

The Trinitarian formula is 1 x 1 x 1 = 1; which is mathematically accurate.

God incarnate is not prophesied in the OT.

Sure it is; in Isaiah 7:14 (compare Matthew 1:23) and Isaiah 9:6, Psalms 45:6-7; and probably also in a few other places.

Raised from the dead means Jesus was acted upon, the object of action by the subject, God. By definition, this is not the same as Jesus rose from the dead, doing the action himself.

Jesus rose Himself from the dead, John 10:17-18.

However, not even God can violate logic. For instance, He cannot be all-knowing and get lost. He cannot be all powerful and actually suffer & die as Jesus did.

God, being all-powerful, can indeed suffer and die. You are assuming that God had no motivation to die for the sins of the world; and that therefore He did not want to die. If that were the case then I would agree with you. But God willingly went to the Cross for us because He loves us.

The resurrected Jesus would not say he is going to his God if he were God incarnate for the same reason that one cannot sit on their own right side. This is because in reality contradictions do not exist. I hope that answers the question.

There is no contradiction in saying that the Father and the Son are distinct from each other and yet the same Person.

I think that if you read posts #1-#6 of the following thread:

True Trinity.

your contention will be dealt with adequately.

The bible says Jesus is God.

No. The Bible does not say this.

It does (John 1:1-3, John 1:14).

30 But God raised him from the dead!

Jesus raised Himself (John 10:17-18); while the above statement is also true.

The Bible does not say Jesus raised himself;

Your biblical illiteracy will only be corrected if you take the time to read the Bible in its entirety.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

what drew you toward Unitarianism? (not to be answered in a single post ...) Trinitarians are so captured by their idolatry, they cannot consider anyone accepting Jesus as their Savior while holding there is only one God who is one being/person. Indeed, the emotion behind the 'man is God thesis' is so powerful, many trinitarians fail to recognize that any Bible verse that seems to support this 4th century heresy does nothing to advance the cause of 3is1ism as that would still only be 2.

To answer the question; Trinitarianism was always a detestable abomination to my intellect based on the following pathways of thinking.
A. The 1C. It must be important if God put it first and used singular pronoun and I cannot think of who it would especially apply to more than the Son.
B. Rejection of mysticism/dualism. 1 ≠ 2 ≠ 3. Or 1 + 1 + 1 = 1 and 1 = 1 + 1.
C. Definition, logic, & language. Consider the statement, "Jesus (the son) was raised from the dead by God (the father) to be the first fruits and is our only Mediator to God."

1. Father. Son. By definition, not the same. And son is created by the father. No exceptions to this prerequisite arrangement. If this is not their relationship, then words mean nothing.
2. Jesus said God is greater, more knowledgable & more glorious. By definition, these cannot be one and the same.
3. God incarnate is not prophesied in the OT. It's not even implied in the vast majority of the NT text.
4. The trinity is not in the Bible & Jesus never said to worship a triune God.
5. Subject v object of sentence. Jesus has many titles. Many of them are 'of God.' The umbrella of Bob is not Bob. "I drank from the cup" ≠ "I told my servant to drink from the cup and he drank from it."
6. Raised from the dead means Jesus was acted upon, the object of action by the subject, God. By definition, this is not the same as Jesus rose from the dead, doing the action himself.
7. "First" implies a coming series of like. My first girlfriend was like others that followed. She was not fundamentally different from those that followed. We don't count Apples and Oranges as Apples.
8. A mediator acts between 2 parties. A mediator, by definition, is not also one of the 2 parties he is mediating for.

I like magic, superpowers, etc. However, not even God can violate logic. For instance, He cannot be all-knowing and get lost. He cannot be all powerful and actually suffer & die as Jesus did. He cannot be all holy and sinful. The resurrected Jesus would not say he is going to his God if he were God incarnate for the same reason that one cannot sit on their own right side. This is because in reality contradictions do not exist. I hope that answers the question. View attachment 13365


I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
Galileo Galilei

Only All Mighty God can take away the sins of the world. It requires omniscience, omnipresence and omnipotence
All sins of all men for all time - pretty big load. And then He was glorified again and given all authority in heaven and on earth. Oh, Jesus is the Creator (Col. 1:16, 17).
So here is the deal, be baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit or not ... it is a command.

 

[ReChoired]

Unitarianism? (not to be answered in a single post ...) Trinitarians

Unitarianism is simply the flipside of the same erroneous coin that Trinitarianism is on. They both teach, incorrectly, a singularity. The truth of the matter is, there are Three Eternal Persons/Beings, that work together, as a "Trio" in scripture.

Would you be willing to discuss, scripturally, your points above?

You stated:

Father. Son. By definition, not the same.

Correct, by scripture:

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;​

You stated:

And son is created by the father.

Incorrect. Here is where you erred at the outset. The Son of the Father, is as eternal as the Father is, by scripture itself:

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Pro 8:30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

1Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
1Jn 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us
1Jn 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.​

The Son already existed before all created things "with" the Father. There was never a time of existence in which the Father exists, that the Son did not also exist with the Father. The Throne of God has eternally had two places, The place for the Father, and at His right hand the place for the Son. The Third Person of the Godhead (Holy Ghost/Spirit), may also be discussed, as He is more mysterious than the other two in the sense of Personality (Personhood), as His nature is not told us in scripture, but is not in focus in this present response to this point.

In fact, the Father, could not have been eternally "the Father", if the Son had not eternally existed alongside "with" the Father. The "Father" would then have 'become' a Father, which is a change of character, which the Bible does not teach.

There is no place in scripture, in which the Son is 'created'. The human flesh body (Hebrews 10:5; Psalms 40:6) is 'created' for Him (the Son) at a later period, but not the Person of the Son Himself. Philippians, and the other texts noted, are clear:

Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.​

The Son can only witness of the Eternal Nature and Character of the Father, if He was present at all such existence/time "with" the Father, otherwise, He would be merely guessing. He could not even have demonstrated that name on earth, unless He experienced that in/from eternity "with" the Father.

 

[Taken]

TRINITY - in some respects Appears to BE a Registered Trademark, that one person or group can own and define.

Tri- is simply a Prefix of Three
Unity- is simply a Term that means United

Scripture Clearly Reveals...
What IS the ONE Heavenly Celestial Spiritual Lord God Almighty, That ARE ONE United.

The Introductions of Multiple NAMES, in Multiple LANGUAGES...of ONE Unified God;
Is NOT a Mystery.

Rev.4
[8] And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.


Rev.11
[17] Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

Rev.15
[3] And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Rev.16
[7] And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so,Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.

Rev.21
[22] And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

Taken

 

[Tong2020]

The Bible does not say Jesus raised himself; it says God raised Jesus.

John 10:17 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”

John 2:18So the Jews answered and said to Him, “What sign do You show to us, since You do these things?”19Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”20Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”21But He was speaking of the temple of His body. 22Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said.

Tong
R1824

 

[justbyfaith]

The Third Person of the Godhead (Holy Ghost/Spirit), may also be discussed, as He is more mysterious than the other two in the sense of Personality (Personhood), as His nature is not told us in scripture,

Actually, the nature and personality of the Holy Ghost is declared by holy scripture:

Psa 143:10, Teach me to do thy will; for thou art my God: thy spirit is good; lead me into the land of uprightness.

Eph 5:9, (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth; )

Rom 8:26, Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Rom 8:27, And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

 

[ReChoired]

Actually, the nature and personality of the Holy Ghost is declared by holy scripture:

You misunderstood what I said.

 

[Philip James]

Trinitarians are so captured by their idolatry, they cannot consider anyone accepting Jesus as their Savior while holding there is only one God who is one being/person. Indeed, the emotion behind the 'man is God thesis' is so powerful, many trinitarians fail to recognize that any Bible verse that seems to support this 4th century heresy does nothing to advance the cause of 3is1ism as that would still only be 2.

That's some chutzpah, posting these accusations on a board that professes the Creed, not in the unorthordox section...

I dispute your accusations of idolatry and heresy and demand that my reputation be upheld!

@Josho @iforrest @Angelina Can a moderator here please help us follow proper procedure to have this dispute adjudicated here?