The Case Against the Trinity

[2nd Timothy Group]

Just like the glory of God shown on the face of Moses. It did not make Moses god.

More significantly, the verse does not parse God into 3's. God, in his unitarian nature, commanded the light to shine (not, 'the Father.')

You know what? I think I'm going to change my position on this verse and also conclude that it does not teach the Trinity. So . . . thanks! I'll be updating my notes.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

He substantiated his position with a sufficient amount of logical reasoning. Do not equate trolling with controversy. Detractors throw that word around too readily, it's beginning to become more self-incriminating rather than accusative.

I agree with this point. We really need to listen to each other. I certainly don't know everything, but between us all, we certainly know all that the Lord wants us to know. Hence, as the Body, we need each other in this way.

 

[justbyfaith]

The immortal and transcendent God did not die as a man, in order to raise Himself from the dead, so that He may propitiate Himself, in order to expiate humans from His own wrath, in order to exalt Himself to His own right-hand side.

He did exactly all of those things.

Hi Pearl, yes, there are a few isolated verses that, by themselves, appear to call Jesus God. But, since such a concept is beyond anyone's imagination,

Eph 3:20, Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

the trinity is not in the Bible, not the word, not the concept.

I beg to differ with you.

In fact, I have done a preaching series on how the Trinity is in the Bible.

True Trinity. (posts #1-#6).

There is no verse in the Bible that states the nature of God is triune -

You are assuming that the kjv is not the Bible or inspired. Because if it is, then 1 John 5:7 (kjv) will suffice as that singular verse.

1Jo 5:7, For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

- coequal, co-substantial and co-eternal and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved.

Not the Trinity; but the Deity of Christ: is set forth as an essential for salvation in John 8:24.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

what drew you toward Unitarianism? (not to be answered in a single post ...) Trinitarians are so captured by their idolatry, they cannot consider anyone accepting Jesus as their Savior while holding there is only one God who is one being/person. Indeed, the emotion behind the 'man is God thesis' is so powerful, many trinitarians fail to recognize that any Bible verse that seems to support this 4th century heresy does nothing to advance the cause of 3is1ism as that would still only be 2.

To answer the question; Trinitarianism was always a detestable abomination to my intellect based on the following pathways of thinking.
A. The 1C. It must be important if God put it first and used singular pronoun and I cannot think of who it would especially apply to more than the Son.
B. Rejection of mysticism/dualism. 1 ≠ 2 ≠ 3. Or 1 + 1 + 1 = 1 and 1 = 1 + 1.
C. Definition, logic, & language. Consider the statement, "Jesus (the son) was raised from the dead by God (the father) to be the first fruits and is our only Mediator to God."

1. Father. Son. By definition, not the same. And son is created by the father. No exceptions to this prerequisite arrangement. If this is not their relationship, then words mean nothing.
2. Jesus said God is greater, more knowledgable & more glorious. By definition, these cannot be one and the same.
3. God incarnate is not prophesied in the OT. It's not even implied in the vast majority of the NT text.
4. The trinity is not in the Bible & Jesus never said to worship a triune God.
5. Subject v object of sentence. Jesus has many titles. Many of them are 'of God.' The umbrella of Bob is not Bob. "I drank from the cup" ≠ "I told my servant to drink from the cup and he drank from it."
6. Raised from the dead means Jesus was acted upon, the object of action by the subject, God. By definition, this is not the same as Jesus rose from the dead, doing the action himself.
7. "First" implies a coming series of like. My first girlfriend was like others that followed. She was not fundamentally different from those that followed. We don't count Apples and Oranges as Apples.
8. A mediator acts between 2 parties. A mediator, by definition, is not also one of the 2 parties he is mediating for.

I like magic, superpowers, etc. However, not even God can violate logic. For instance, He cannot be all-knowing and get lost. He cannot be all powerful and actually suffer & die as Jesus did. He cannot be all holy and sinful. The resurrected Jesus would not say he is going to his God if he were God incarnate for the same reason that one cannot sit on their own right side. This is because in reality contradictions do not exist. I hope that answers the question. View attachment 13365

your whole problem is that you are using the wrong math!

1 X 1 X 1 = 1

You forget that the ordinal one and to cardinal one i s used in the OT and that Jesus is called God called equal to god and that the Holy Spirit is called God. YOu are captured by the ancient Origenian/Arian Heresy.


I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
Galileo Galilei

 

[Pearl]

Hi Pearl, yes, there are a few isolated verses that, by themselves, appear to call Jesus God. But, since such a concept is beyond anyone's imagination, beyond all physical or metaphysical plausibilities, beyond any monotheist's esteem of God, we must apply a more stringent hermeneutic to our exegesis - single verses cannot determine doctrine (even collectively), theos is not reserved for the Almighty, mysticism must be minimalized at all costs.
What God has bestowed to Christ, due to his love and faithfulness towards God, is of a godly status as far as humans are concerned. Second in command, as denoted by right-hand-side (i.e. right-hand-man), clearly delineates the hierarchy of God the Father, and Jesus. ...but, also, the pre-eminence of Christ, not the deity.

In short, Pearl, such an enigmatic and esoteric concept, would require multiple verses and chapters in succession, on a didactic level, in order to substantiate such an implausible and offensive* concept - *God, the transcendent almighty, was ridiculed, humiliated, abused and killed by His own creation. There is no justice system in the world, or rationale, that could possibly glorify such an act on any level, ...especially as a means for redemption.

Thanks!

There's also this one:

Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

 

[Pearl]

There's also this one:

Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

I have never had any doubt whatsoever that Jesus is God incarnate as he is called Immanuel - God with us. Abraham shed his blood and that of his household in the first covenant and in the second covenant God shed his own blood of the New Covenant through Jesus.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

what drew you toward Unitarianism? (not to be answered in a single post ...) Trinitarians are so captured by their idolatry, they cannot consider anyone accepting Jesus as their Savior while holding there is only one God who is one being/person. Indeed, the emotion behind the 'man is God thesis' is so powerful, many trinitarians fail to recognize that any Bible verse that seems to support this 4th century heresy does nothing to advance the cause of 3is1ism as that would still only be 2.

To answer the question; Trinitarianism was always a detestable abomination to my intellect based on the following pathways of thinking.
A. The 1C. It must be important if God put it first and used singular pronoun and I cannot think of who it would especially apply to more than the Son.
B. Rejection of mysticism/dualism. 1 ≠ 2 ≠ 3. Or 1 + 1 + 1 = 1 and 1 = 1 + 1.
C. Definition, logic, & language. Consider the statement, "Jesus (the son) was raised from the dead by God (the father) to be the first fruits and is our only Mediator to God."

1. Father. Son. By definition, not the same. And son is created by the father. No exceptions to this prerequisite arrangement. If this is not their relationship, then words mean nothing.
2. Jesus said God is greater, more knowledgable & more glorious. By definition, these cannot be one and the same.
3. God incarnate is not prophesied in the OT. It's not even implied in the vast majority of the NT text.
4. The trinity is not in the Bible & Jesus never said to worship a triune God.
5. Subject v object of sentence. Jesus has many titles. Many of them are 'of God.' The umbrella of Bob is not Bob. "I drank from the cup" ≠ "I told my servant to drink from the cup and he drank from it."
6. Raised from the dead means Jesus was acted upon, the object of action by the subject, God. By definition, this is not the same as Jesus rose from the dead, doing the action himself.
7. "First" implies a coming series of like. My first girlfriend was like others that followed. She was not fundamentally different from those that followed. We don't count Apples and Oranges as Apples.
8. A mediator acts between 2 parties. A mediator, by definition, is not also one of the 2 parties he is mediating for.

I like magic, superpowers, etc. However, not even God can violate logic. For instance, He cannot be all-knowing and get lost. He cannot be all powerful and actually suffer & die as Jesus did. He cannot be all holy and sinful. The resurrected Jesus would not say he is going to his God if he were God incarnate for the same reason that one cannot sit on their own right side. This is because in reality contradictions do not exist. I hope that answers the question. View attachment 13365


what unitarians also forget and do not see in Scripture is that the Triune God is spoken in two different aspects. 1. Is their person/position and 2. Ther nature or essence.

As to their position? The Father is above the Son who is above the Spirit.

As to their nature? The spirit is equal to the Son who is equal to the Father!

These are two unalterable bible teachings that caused believers to coin the term "Trinity".

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
Galileo Galilei

 

[Gideons300]

Just my two cents but I suspect from the world's point of view, they would be much more open to the gospel if they saw Christ displayed in us....by the power of God..... through the indwelling Spirit, as opposed to listening to endless, often head-knowledge filled debates about the mystery of God when at best, we all see through a glass darkly.

Sadly, arguments like this one (how about let's call them like they are... deal?) never seem to end with one side saying "Ohhhhh, I see now!! You are perfectly right and I was so blind! Thank you so much for teaching me the truth" Like EVER. LOL.

Again, just my 2 cents.

Gids

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

The bible says Jesus is God.

No the Bible doesn't say that.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

To deny that Jesus is God is anti christ, the bible says He is. He created you.

No those who deny Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God are those who are the Antichrists

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

Just my two cents but I suspect from the world's point of view, they would be much more open to the gospel if they saw Christ displayed in us....by the power of God..... through the indwelling Spirit, as opposed to listening to endless, often head-knowledge filled debates about the mystery of God when at best, we all see through a glass darkly.

Sadly, arguments like this one (how about let's call them like they are... deal?) never seem to end with one side saying "Ohhhhh, I see now!! You are perfectly right and I was so blind! Thank you so much for teaching me the truth" Like EVER. LOL.

Again, just my 2 cents.

Gids

Above, I admitted that I was wrong about a verse, updated my personal notes and said thanks.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

To deny that Jesus is God is anti christ, the bible says He is. He created you.

No those who deny Jesus is the only Begotten Son of God is antichrist, and the only humans created were Adam and Eve, the rest of us got here by procreation.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

No the Bible doesn't say that.

I always thought the below verse, regardless of the translation, was clear about Jesus being God in the Flesh. This is what the Patriarchs were looking forward to . . . the awaited Messiah.

Isaiah 7:14 NLT - "All right then, the Lord himself will give you the sign. Look! The virgin will conceive a child! She will give birth to a son and will call him Immanuel (which means 'God is with us')."

 

[justbyfaith]

No the Bible doesn't say that.

It does (John 1:1-3, John 1:14).

No those who deny Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God are those who are the Antichrists

No those who deny Jesus is the only Begotten Son of God is antichrist,

If you deny that Jesus is "The everlasting Father" you are denying that He is the only begotten Son of God (Isaiah 9:6).

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

The Holy Spirit is God.

No the Holy Spirit isn't a person at all. The scriptures personifies the Holy Spirit as the scriptures personify, death, sin and wisdom but death, sin and wisdom are not persons just because the scriptures personify them. So Gods Holy Spirit isn't a person just because the scriptures personify it.

 

[Gideons300]

Above, I admitted that I was wrong about a verse, updated my personal notes and said thanks.

I was not singling any poster out, and certainly not you. You always have good things to say and in a nice way. Forgive me if you took it personally. It was far from my intent.

blessings,

Gideon

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

No the Holy Spirit isn't a person at all.

Acts 5:3-4 NKJV - 3 But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back [part] of the price of the land for yourself? 4 "While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."

Luke must have gotten this wrong, because he is quoting Peter to say that Ananias had lied to both God and the Holy Spirit. So my question is: Did Ananias lie once or twice? If he lied once, then the Holy Spirit is God. If Ananias lied twice . . . then I can see your point.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

I was not singling any poster out, and certainly not you. You always have good things to say and in a nice way. Forgive me if you took it personally. It was far from my intent.

blessings,

Gideon

Nah . . . doesn't bother me. You were just saying that no one ever breaks down and changes their mind. I do!

 

[justbyfaith]

No the Holy Spirit isn't a person at all.

The Holy Spirit both has a mind and also makes intercession for us (Romans 8:26-27).

So, you say, He is not a Person?

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

The Holy Spirit both has a mind and also makes intercession for us (Romans 8:26-27).

So, you say, He is not a Person?

Seems to me that the Spirit can be anything He wants.