The Case Against the Trinity

[justbyfaith]

You misunderstood what I said.

Sorry, I thought that you said that the nature of the Holy Ghost is not told us in holy scripture.

What did you mean to say?

 

[Mosheli]

- God says "we/us/our" in Genesis 1.
- Elohim is plural in Genesis 1.
- Jesus said "I Am" in Gospels.
- "Hear oh Israel the Lord your God is One". Ehad is a plural "one" like unity/union not a singular one alone.
- "God is Love". You can not have love with only one alone.
- John 1 says the Word was God & was with God.
- INRI on the Cross is Yhvh in Hebrew.
- Jesus said he and the Father were One in John.
- The Holy of Holies or "place of the 3 holy ones".
"Holy, Holy, Holy" in Revelation (3 holys).
The Lord bless you and keep you verse has 3 Lords.
Eloi Eloi spoken by Jesus on the Cross may be Father & Spirit.
- Thomas said "my Lord and my God".
- Some worshipped Jesus in the Gospels. But we are not suppoed to bow or worship humans or angels.
- Immanuel "God with us".
- Jesus was the (only begotten) son of God. How can God have a son and it not also be divine?
- Allah also says "we/us/our" in Koran.
- God is Aleph and Tau in Genesis etc. Jesus is called Alpha and Omega in the NT.
- Man created in image of God as body soul & spirit (3).

 

[justbyfaith]

"Holy, Holy, Holy" in Revelation (3 holys).

Also in Isaiah chapter 6.

- Allah also says "we/us/our" in Koran.

I wouldn't count that as meaning anything.

 

[DNB]

Only All Mighty God can takebawaybtue sins of the world. It requirea omniscience, omnipresence and omnipotence
All sins of all men for all time - pretty big load. And then of after the task He was glorified again and given all authority in heaven and on earth. Oh, Jesus is the Creator (Col. 1:16, 17).
So here is the deal, be baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit or not ... it is a command.

How does God propitiate Himself? Your post was pure speculated nonsense! God was the offended party, so how in the world does the Judge take on the punishment for the accused, and exact commensurate justice at the same time?
You trinitarians continuously cite meaningless clichés, ...as meaningless and incomprehensible as the notion of a god-man.

 

[justbyfaith]

How does God propitiate Himself? Your post was pure speculated nonsense!

Again, read 1 Corinthians 1:18-29, 1 Corinthians 2:13-14.

 

[DNB]

what drew you toward Unitarianism? (not to be answered in a single post ...) Trinitarians are so captured by their idolatry, they cannot consider anyone accepting Jesus as their Savior while holding there is only one God who is one being/person. Indeed, the emotion behind the 'man is God thesis' is so powerful, many trinitarians fail to recognize that any Bible verse that seems to support this 4th century heresy does nothing to advance the cause of 3is1ism as that would still only be 2.

To answer the question; Trinitarianism was always a detestable abomination to my intellect based on the following pathways of thinking.
A. The 1C. It must be important if God put it first and used singular pronoun and I cannot think of who it would especially apply to more than the Son.
B. Rejection of mysticism/dualism. 1 ≠ 2 ≠ 3. Or 1 + 1 + 1 = 1 and 1 = 1 + 1.
C. Definition, logic, & language. Consider the statement, "Jesus (the son) was raised from the dead by God (the father) to be the first fruits and is our only Mediator to God."

1. Father. Son. By definition, not the same. And son is created by the father. No exceptions to this prerequisite arrangement. If this is not their relationship, then words mean nothing.
2. Jesus said God is greater, more knowledgable & more glorious. By definition, these cannot be one and the same.
3. God incarnate is not prophesied in the OT. It's not even implied in the vast majority of the NT text.
4. The trinity is not in the Bible & Jesus never said to worship a triune God.
5. Subject v object of sentence. Jesus has many titles. Many of them are 'of God.' The umbrella of Bob is not Bob. "I drank from the cup" ≠ "I told my servant to drink from the cup and he drank from it."
6. Raised from the dead means Jesus was acted upon, the object of action by the subject, God. By definition, this is not the same as Jesus rose from the dead, doing the action himself.
7. "First" implies a coming series of like. My first girlfriend was like others that followed. She was not fundamentally different from those that followed. We don't count Apples and Oranges as Apples.
8. A mediator acts between 2 parties. A mediator, by definition, is not also one of the 2 parties he is mediating for.

I like magic, superpowers, etc. However, not even God can violate logic. For instance, He cannot be all-knowing and get lost. He cannot be all powerful and actually suffer & die as Jesus did. He cannot be all holy and sinful. The resurrected Jesus would not say he is going to his God if he were God incarnate for the same reason that one cannot sit on their own right side. This is because in reality contradictions do not exist. I hope that answers the question. View attachment 13365


I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
Galileo Galilei

Hi Wrangler, let me add a few points (sorry if repetition occurs).

1. The most incomprehensible doctrine in all of Christendom, even defies explanation from its leading proponents.
2. Not one explicit, didactic or prophetical passage (ratified by Biblical author) can be found to support the doctrine.
3. The redundancy that occurs when having three all powerful persons in a single entity. It only involves one to create, maintain, and provide for the entire universe, and answer all the prayers of its inhabitants created in His image.
4. All intrinsic attributes of God, are antithetical to the attributes of humans - no such plausible thing as a god-man.
5. Not one New Testament conversion involved the citing of a trinitarian formula.
6. All orthodox Christian dogma becomes irrational when employing trinitarian dynamics to the equation. The immortal and transcendent God did not die as a man, in order to raise Himself from the dead, so that He may propitiate Himself, in order to expiate humans from His own wrath, in order to exalt Himself to His own right-hand side.
7. Not one prayer or doxology, from any of the most prominent and eminent characters of the Bible, ever cited any trinitarian verbiage in their exaltations.
8. For the amount of effort, proof-text and solicitude given to the three major revelations of the NT (Suffering Messiah, faith over works, Gentiles into the Kingdom), the alleged most critical doctrine, and the one that would require the most, the trinity, hasn't a fraction of support, in quantity and weight, as that of any other doctrine in all of Scripture.

Never has any other doctrine in all of Christendom reduced rather astute and competent men into babbling fools, as they try to defend and rationalize this incomprehensible and absurd doctrine.

 

[ReChoired]

Sorry, I thought that you said that the nature of the Holy Ghost is not told us in holy scripture.

What did you mean to say?

His (The Holy Ghost's) Nature is not given, though His Character is. When I speak of Nature, I am using it according to scriptural definition. For instance, Jesus is the Son of God by Nature. In other words, all that the Father has by His very Nature (the very Nature of Eternal Deity), the Son also is/has. Jesus also has the Nature of mankind, that of human Nature. The Holy Ghost's Nature is not recorded, though the Bible speaks of His Character, such as "good", etc., and of His Personality (Personhood), thus "He", etc.

 

[Enoch111]

Trinitarians are so captured by their idolatry...

It looks like the trolls are suddenly flooding Christianity Board. There is thread after thread of false doctrine starting up in this forum. Not a good sign.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

...so how in the world does the Judge take on the punishment for the accused, and exact commensurate justice at the same time?

Self sacrifice, the greatest act of LOVE is that you would die for everyone else's sin. God became man, He emptied Himself into the womb of Mary and a child was born. A mere man cannot take away sins just by dying for anyone. But Jesus was the God/man, who spiritually existed from the beginning.
Your denial speaks of your lack of discernment of scripture, which the Holy Spirit, Whom is accepted as God and received by the believer in Christ, provides. Being norm from above meNs God dwells in you and enables you to discern truth
Otherwise you will lean on your own understanding. Unbelievers have a spiritual defect, they are blind. So go back to and study, pray for enlightenment and do ask for humility and forgiveness for your foolishness.

 

[mailmandan]

It looks like the trolls are suddenly flooding Christianity Board. There is thread after thread of false doctrine starting up in this forum. Not a good sign.

Need to borrow this?

 

[soul man]

what drew you toward Unitarianism? (not to be answered in a single post ...) Trinitarians are so captured by their idolatry, they cannot consider anyone accepting Jesus as their Savior while holding there is only one God who is one being/person. Indeed, the emotion behind the 'man is God thesis' is so powerful, many trinitarians fail to recognize that any Bible verse that seems to support this 4th century heresy does nothing to advance the cause of 3is1ism as that would still only be 2.

To answer the question; Trinitarianism was always a detestable abomination to my intellect based on the following pathways of thinking.
A. The 1C. It must be important if God put it first and used singular pronoun and I cannot think of who it would especially apply to more than the Son.
B. Rejection of mysticism/dualism. 1 ≠ 2 ≠ 3. Or 1 + 1 + 1 = 1 and 1 = 1 + 1.
C. Definition, logic, & language. Consider the statement, "Jesus (the son) was raised from the dead by God (the father) to be the first fruits and is our only Mediator to God."

1. Father. Son. By definition, not the same. And son is created by the father. No exceptions to this prerequisite arrangement. If this is not their relationship, then words mean nothing.
2. Jesus said God is greater, more knowledgable & more glorious. By definition, these cannot be one and the same.
3. God incarnate is not prophesied in the OT. It's not even implied in the vast majority of the NT text.
4. The trinity is not in the Bible & Jesus never said to worship a triune God.
5. Subject v object of sentence. Jesus has many titles. Many of them are 'of God.' The umbrella of Bob is not Bob. "I drank from the cup" ≠ "I told my servant to drink from the cup and he drank from it."
6. Raised from the dead means Jesus was acted upon, the object of action by the subject, God. By definition, this is not the same as Jesus rose from the dead, doing the action himself.
7. "First" implies a coming series of like. My first girlfriend was like others that followed. She was not fundamentally different from those that followed. We don't count Apples and Oranges as Apples.
8. A mediator acts between 2 parties. A mediator, by definition, is not also one of the 2 parties he is mediating for.

I like magic, superpowers, etc. However, not even God can violate logic. For instance, He cannot be all-knowing and get lost. He cannot be all powerful and actually suffer & die as Jesus did. He cannot be all holy and sinful. The resurrected Jesus would not say he is going to his God if he were God incarnate for the same reason that one cannot sit on their own right side. This is because in reality contradictions do not exist. I hope that answers the question. View attachment 13365


I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
Galileo Galilei

Idolatry lol

 

[Pearl]

Romans 9:5
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of
the Messiah, who is God over all,
for ever praised! Amen.

For all those who aren't sure of the deity of Jesus, this nails it for me. But I'm sure there will be those who still don't believe.

 

[101G]

First thanks for the OP,

I like magic, superpowers, etc. However, not even God can violate logic. For instance, He cannot be all-knowing and get lost. He cannot be all powerful and actually suffer & die as Jesus did. He cannot be all holy and sinful. The resurrected Jesus would not say he is going to his God if he were God incarnate for the same reason that one cannot sit on their own right side. This is because in reality contradictions do not exist. I hope that answers the question.

well this is not true, God can do anything he wants, in or out of the flesh. Unitarianism is worest than the other. it's like jumping out of the frying pan into the Fire.

let me ask you something, do you believe this scriptures, these two..... Matthew 1:23 "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us." and the way God is with US us is to be in a body of Flesh and blood correct?

now this verse, Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:"
Philippians 2:7 "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:"

this is GOD in Flesh, which confirms the Matthew 1:23 verse, do you agree? yes or no

I'll be looking for your reply...

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

There were indeed a few who thought of Jesus as God. Their opinion is closer to Christ than ours.

Luke 7:13-16 KJV - "And when the Lord saw her, he had compassion on her, and said unto her, Weep not. And he came and touched the bier: and they that bare [him] stood still. And he said, Young man, I say unto thee, Arise. And he that was dead sat up, and began to speak. And he delivered him to his mother. And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people."

 

[DNB]

Self sacrifice, the greatest act of LOVE is that you would die for everyone else's sin. God became man, He emptied Himself into the womb of Mary and a child was born. A mere man cannot take away sins just by dying for anyone. But Jesus was the God/man, who spiritually existed from the beginning.
Your denial speaks of your lack of discernment of scripture, which the Holy Spirit, Whom is accepted as God and received by the believer in Christ, provides. Being norm from above meNs God dwells in you and enables you to discern truth
Otherwise you will lean on your own understanding. Unbelievers have a spiritual defect, they are blind. So go back to and study, pray for enlightenment and do ask for humility and forgiveness for your foolishness.

RDB, you're going in circles. You have yet to explain how justice is exacted by the victim paying the price for the culprit. Don't speak in mystical nonsense terms, where you argument comes from trying to explain the elementary principles of what love is, or how egregious sin is. But rather, try to expound on what justice is, and how the transgression of disobedience and defiance to God, can only be rectified by God. Do you see the ineptitude in your position?
Soteriology is in question here, not whether or not God loves us.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

2 Corinthians 4:6 KJV - "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."

 

[DNB]

Romans 9:5
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of
the Messiah, who is God over all,
for ever praised! Amen.

For all those who aren't sure of the deity of Jesus, this nails it for me. But I'm sure there will be those who still don't believe.

Hi Pearl, yes, there are a few isolated verses that, by themselves, appear to call Jesus God. But, since such a concept is beyond anyone's imagination, beyond all physical or metaphysical plausibilities, beyond any monotheist's esteem of God, we must apply a more stringent hermeneutic to our exegesis - single verses cannot determine doctrine (even collectively), theos is not reserved for the Almighty, mysticism must be minimalized at all costs.
What God has bestowed to Christ, due to his love and faithfulness towards God, is of a godly status as far as humans are concerned. Second in command, as denoted by right-hand-side (i.e. right-hand-man), clearly delineates the hierarchy of God the Father, and Jesus. ...but, also, the pre-eminence of Christ, not the deity.

In short, Pearl, such an enigmatic and esoteric concept, would require multiple verses and chapters in succession, on a didactic level, in order to substantiate such an implausible and offensive* concept - *God, the transcendent almighty, was ridiculed, humiliated, abused and killed by His own creation. There is no justice system in the world, or rationale, that could possibly glorify such an act on any level, ...especially as a means for redemption.

Thanks!

 

[Wrangler]

God says "we/us/our" in Genesis 1.

And this is supposed to counterbalance the 5,000 times he refers to Himself in the singular, "I/My" and prophets "He/His?!" Two rational alternatives to the trinitarian desperation of finding *anything* that supports their idolatry:

• God was referring to Himself as the Royal 'We.'
• God was talking to other heavenly beings, elohim, like angels.

- Elohim is plural in Genesis 1.

Right, 'heavenly beings" is elohim in the original language. It is NOT a plural form for God as trinitarians desperately allege.

Let me reiterate one of the most important facts against the trinity: the trinity is not in the Bible, not the word, not the concept. The Bible was written by monotheist Jews, who reject the trinity. There is no verse in the Bible that states the nature of God is triune - coequal, co-substantial and co-eternal and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved. The importance of this cannot be over-stated. This is because trinitarians are so consumed by their idolatry, they pretend what is not there, they pretend trinitarianism is the central message of the Bible.

There is no 3rd person/being of Holy Spirit. There is only God, the Father, and his son, our brother. One of the most misunderstood and abused notions of the Bible by trinitarians is failing to recognize that all first born children are only children - until other children come around. Jesus WAS the only son of God but is no longer the only son of God. That is our inheritance. That is the Good News of Jesus, the Anointed. Who Anointed Jesus? Who did the acting? God, in his unitarian nature, anoints. Jesus is a man and called himself, Son of Man. If Acts 17:31 asserted the trinitarian doctrine, it would be the most quoted verse in Scripture. God selected a man to be our judge and savior.


For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers
Hebrews 2:11 (ESV)

He has fixed a day of accountability, when the whole world will be justly evaluated by a new, higher standard: not by a statue, but by a living man. God selected this man and made Him credible to all by raising Him from the dead.
Acts 17:31 (Voice)

 

[Wrangler]

2 Corinthians 4:6 KJV - "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."

Just like the glory of God shown on the face of Moses. It did not make Moses god.

More significantly, the verse does not parse God into 3's. God, in his unitarian nature, commanded the light to shine (not, 'the Father.')

 

[DNB]

And here we have yet another troll...

Don't these people have anything else better to do?

How boring.

I'm getting tired of using the ignore button.

He substantiated his position with a sufficient amount of logical reasoning. Do not equate trolling with controversy. Detractors throw that word around too readily, it's beginning to become more self-incriminating rather than accusative.