Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
You told me that already. And it does not make faith to be work. Yes, faith produces deeds, but that does not make faith to be work.
Are you inventing your own language? Last time I looked, "Deeds" meant "Works!"
James 2.14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds/works?
Check out those in bold font in the quote box, which says “to be righteous”. So you seem to be reading wrongly what I was saying. For what I said is not that God made them righteous, but that God wanted for them to be righteous.
In either case you're wrong. God said they were righteous. Faith made Abraham and Israel both righteous when they obeyed the Law. It's just that whenever they produced righteousness, they continued to reveal their sin nature as well. It was not a righteousness, therefore, that could impart eternal life, but only temporal blessings in life.
Circumcision was a sign of the covenant between God and Abraham. A seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had. Clearly, it’s about the righteousness of faith, apart from works. We know Abraham. He was a man of faith. We know that his observing and keeping what God had commanded him to do, he did in faith. God gave him commandments, not to make him righteous, for he was already righteous in the sight of God, bit not on account of works, but of faith.
Abraham was righteous both because of his faith and also because his faith produced obedience, or good works by obeying God's word. It was never enough to just believe. The kind of faith that justifies is one that truly repents and calls upon God for help through forgiveness. God's word applies to such a man by grace so that he can continue to hear and obey God's instructions.
James 2.21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?
Now, God’s commandments are righteous and good. So it goes without saying that the works Abraham did were righteous and good. So that, his works showed men that he was righteous. So that, when one does the works of the commandments of God, he is said and seen as righteous, which is a righteousness of works, different from the righteousness of faith.
Both belief for forgiveness and belief for obedience represent the "righteousness of faith." Neither one obtains eternal life. But faith for forgiveness does obtain justification, through repentance. This is not, however, eternal justification--just temporary justification.
When Paul is talking about the Works of the Law, once again, he is speaking in abbreviated language, describing, in context, the works Israel was doing *apart from faith.* By faith they should've been obtaining life and blessing. But they had turned from the way, and had received cursing instead, along with death.
They were not justified by works under the Law because they failed to obtain lasting justification under that system. The nation failed. It was an indication that all men fail, including men of faith. Not even men of faith can be eternally justified because the elements of the Law will always condemn them.
Remember, the commandments came after he was justified by God. So obviously, they have nothing at all to do with his justification, that was by faith, and that was apart from works. And obviously then, the commandments were not for that purpose, but for another.
No, Paul was just stating that faith must precede the Law so that obedience can be viewed as both righteousness and justification. Without faith obedience to the Law is artificial and worthless. Even worse, it misrepresents the whole purpose of the Law, which was to make righteous. It was never intended, however, to provide eternal life because the Law itself prevented Man from having that until Christ provided eternal atonement. Gal 3.21-22.
In the case of Israel, the difference is that, they (collectively) had no faith as that of Abraham...
Israel cannot be judged strictly by their Wilderness experience. Did some of them apply faith later on? Of course! Abraham was not the only man of faith!
And I am not at all saying that. What I am saying is to emphasize that righteousness is on account of faith. Yes there is another righteousness, that is the righteousness of works, apart from faith. But such is not that which pleases God.
Now you're saying what I've been saying from the beginning!
Then you don’t understand what I am saying. Try to understand what I said “Whether the law or the works of the law, are done in faith or not, does not make of the law to be of faith.”
Of course it does! If Israel obeyed God by faith, then their works were done in faith. Paul was speaking of the Law and Works as abbreviations, as I've been saying. They represented Israel at a particular time in history when they completely failed to operate in them by faith. He was not saying that they weren't meant to be operated by faith! They were!
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