You believe in annihilation, okay, just to clarify. ...i was being entirely facetious with my last post because i couldn't get what your point was, you should've offered more information.
Where is hell? Where is heaven?
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Thank you for responding to me here. I do appreciate it. I again apologize if I jump on you too quickly in my earlier post to you.
I don't quote other books [and while I own a couple I have not read them through] about the end times when it comes down to it. I read and study my Bibles but except for bits and pieces a lot of the Book of Revelation is nearly Greek to me even though I have read it carefully many times over the years.
Still... I cannot look for someone else's vision. I read some of them usually on forums as I am reading what you posted here, but I am listening for God. Lots of times I don't hear anything because I guess maybe He is not sharing on purpose. Then again I am an old man and my ability to reason is at times I know noticeably diminished.
While I grew up Catholic, the first non-Catholic church I attended back in the 70's taught that there would be a pre-trib rapture. Never having read the Bible myself I simply took it in... Somewhere along the line I set it aside, but not because some man taught it this way or that way. No one that I can recall after the first church ever taught anything in depth on it. Maybe they did not know what the Bible really taught about it? They apparently simply presumed everyone was behind then 100%. Since in those early congregations where I attended no one ever opened their mouth in public to question the "man of God" it was probably true most of the time.
Especially in my very early years serving God there were very few men around I could converse with about anything controversial. None of them with only one exception were pastors or ministers with official positions in churches. The one exception was the natural brother of the man who won me to the Lord. [For your information both of them were black men or men of African descent if you like that designation better.] He became pastor when his much older pastor died, but that was some years after I was no longer a part of that assembly so really I was never really "under" him... whatever that means. It meant something very different in the beginning of my walk with God than it does now. I stopped attending any place as my home church close to the end of 2018 thinking that someday God would show me another place... but it never happened. Instead this Covid thing came along and I have stopped even visiting physical churches. I miss that, but God does know what He is doing when I don't
I would suggest you try not to be too harsh against everyone you meet here. All of us are ignorant or inexperienced in a lot things which are important to God as I understand it. Ignorant but in a few cases really searching for something better and closer to God. Of course, on the other hand, there are many who believe they are leading the pack in the righteousness and knowledge of the things of God. Can they be helped? Maybe not, but I try not to be too quick about rendering a final judgement against even the worst ones [to me worst] I see. Thanks for listening to me. I have read some of what you have written here on this forum, but you don't always post things easy to respond to... so this is probably the first time.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
This is pretty much my take on hell, also. I would add that the outer darkness makes me think that the people in hell will be in total isolation, from both God and each other. That might not sound so bad, but when one realizes that here in this world, we always have the benefits of God's presence keeping life from being a total hell, when one realizes that in this world there's nowhere you can go where the good things that God created don't exist in some form...imagine a "place" if it can even be called that, where no sensations exist at all. No beauty, no sight, no touch, no companionship, nothing to hear and nothing to feel. Complete nothingness is what I imagine hell to be. Because those who want separation from God will receive separation from all that is good, because there's nothing good that exists outside of God.
I believe the understanding at the time these things were written was that the worn which does not die was in fact what remained of a man after being destroyed by God, something like that.
This from one of the Targums I think.
"I am a worm and not a man" ~ Jesus crucified.
Much love!
You make a great point!
Regardless of how we see this world, it's not hell, God gives us all a common grace which will not be in hell.
Much love!
That was ignorant, as there are various types of death, physical, spiritual, eternal, temporal, asleep, etc.,...
Yes, ...even verging on offensive when equates his own understanding with that of God's. But, yes, he has his moments of reasonability (rare, in my opinion).
Triumph1300
Well-Known Member
They might have not been in hell, but surely to the prisoners in the German concentration camps it WAS hell.
There is the matter of language, the words need to mean something. So either its "the unseen place of the dead", that is, sheol, or hades, or hell, died and gone to . . ."; or, it'a a really really really bad day, I'm in hell!How easy it is to say this from our North American ivory towers.
To mix them together takes the meaning away from the word, I think.
Much love!
That's very interesting, but I'm hesitant to affirm any logistics about the actual realm as it is not spoken of in Scripture, at least outside of the 'metaphor', '...cast into outer darkness..'. And plus, this may put an element of torture on God's part - He chose the environment knowing that it would add to their suffering?
But, on the other hand, how can anyone deny that what you say is Biblically sound according to what we know of creation and things of God? You may have a valid point, because I can't think of any other environment that would be conducive to their demise, than what you stated i.e. trees and flowers, lakes and mountains, birds and fish, etc...(unimaginable)???
Thank you for that!
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I agree that hell is real, but perhaps what the word 'real' means to me differs. God is real and the vision we have of God's plan is a vision of Reality. What men without God call reality appears to me to be a temporal or even fictitious thing or place for the dead. Everyone without God is dead even though they may call what they have 'life'. Life however, Real Life, according to God is what Jesus brought:
"The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly" John 10:10
I do like the Rom 12:20 reference and explanation. Sometimes when we are our own enemy we are in effect placing burning coals on our own heads. We would be judging ourselves.
Indeed, punishing themselves. Our details on this may differ, but the result is the same. I would hesitate however on the perpetually burning consciences...
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
In discussions of this nature and this topic, I tend to revert to two points of argument that at least to me, are incontrovertible.
The first, and to me the most important, centers on the character of God. I've mentioned this many times in the past, but I have yet to be convinced of any error. We as children of the Most High are granted by the grace of God a sense of justice...a conscience that translates right and wrong. This we are born with, in some it is distorted through the events and trials of life and becomes blunted, and even through repeatedly experiencing trauma or viewing evil, becomes scarred and seared with a hot iron as the Apostles write. It becomes numb. Insensitive. Compassion and mercy becomes lost and love becomes cold. We become judgmental and condemning, searching for fault and rejoice when our enemies fall and our opponents fail. But as we grow in grace, we change. We become more sensitive to others. Compassion awakens. Those "weightier" matters of the law, love, mercy, true judgement and faith, come to the fore and we recognise true evil and despise it with a passion, not just in ourselves, but in the world. We then gain a glimpse of the character or nature of our Father. We begin to appreciate how He feels... Why He does what He does... We gain insight into His holiness and we even partake of the same. We become more like Him. We then see the actions of others in a truer light. We see evil for what it really is. How it demeans others. How it destroys the dignity and image of God in man. How it denigrates the character and destroys integrity, separating us from God and resulting in nothing but pain, suffering, and death. We rightly and justifiably detest cruelty in all its forms. Torture, brutality, and bullying becomes utterly contemptible, especially by those in power and positions of leadership... We call them tyrants... Despots... Dictators... Demon possessed evil and wicked and when their reign is finished, we are glad because their victims receive respite and peace and righteousness have a chance of recovery... We then are more determined to avoid such circumstances in the future where such leadership can arise.
We converted children of God readily and justifiably recognise these evil traits in other humans, and know from whence this evil originates, yet grant the Creator God, and His Son, praise and worship for the same traits and appoint to Them the same character as the devil. How can this be? How can we be fully justified in condemning such a practice by men, but be justified in worshipping God for the same?
Belief in an endless torture, whether physical, mental, or spiritual, wherever it may be and of whatever intensity, if it has no end means that justice is never satisfied. Therefore it can only be an unjust punishment. Which does not belong to a just God. Such a belief must be rejected without reservation. You insult the Almighty and denigrate everything He stands for and represents.
The other point I revert to is far more simple. The wages of sin is death. Death of the whole person. In death there is no life. We know this because life is granted us as a free gift. The life we are promised, the eternal life we have in Christ, has no death. Death and life are totally incompatible and are complete opposite to one another. Any idea that sinners are granted any form of life as a punishment for their unbelief totally contradicts everything scripture tells us about the consequences of sin.
The first, and to me the most important, centers on the character of God. I've mentioned this many times in the past, but I have yet to be convinced of any error. We as children of the Most High are granted by the grace of God a sense of justice...a conscience that translates right and wrong. This we are born with, in some it is distorted through the events and trials of life and becomes blunted, and even through repeatedly experiencing trauma or viewing evil, becomes scarred and seared with a hot iron as the Apostles write. It becomes numb. Insensitive. Compassion and mercy becomes lost and love becomes cold. We become judgmental and condemning, searching for fault and rejoice when our enemies fall and our opponents fail. But as we grow in grace, we change. We become more sensitive to others. Compassion awakens. Those "weightier" matters of the law, love, mercy, true judgement and faith, come to the fore and we recognise true evil and despise it with a passion, not just in ourselves, but in the world. We then gain a glimpse of the character or nature of our Father. We begin to appreciate how He feels... Why He does what He does... We gain insight into His holiness and we even partake of the same. We become more like Him. We then see the actions of others in a truer light. We see evil for what it really is. How it demeans others. How it destroys the dignity and image of God in man. How it denigrates the character and destroys integrity, separating us from God and resulting in nothing but pain, suffering, and death. We rightly and justifiably detest cruelty in all its forms. Torture, brutality, and bullying becomes utterly contemptible, especially by those in power and positions of leadership... We call them tyrants... Despots... Dictators... Demon possessed evil and wicked and when their reign is finished, we are glad because their victims receive respite and peace and righteousness have a chance of recovery... We then are more determined to avoid such circumstances in the future where such leadership can arise.
We converted children of God readily and justifiably recognise these evil traits in other humans, and know from whence this evil originates, yet grant the Creator God, and His Son, praise and worship for the same traits and appoint to Them the same character as the devil. How can this be? How can we be fully justified in condemning such a practice by men, but be justified in worshipping God for the same?
Belief in an endless torture, whether physical, mental, or spiritual, wherever it may be and of whatever intensity, if it has no end means that justice is never satisfied. Therefore it can only be an unjust punishment. Which does not belong to a just God. Such a belief must be rejected without reservation. You insult the Almighty and denigrate everything He stands for and represents.
The other point I revert to is far more simple. The wages of sin is death. Death of the whole person. In death there is no life. We know this because life is granted us as a free gift. The life we are promised, the eternal life we have in Christ, has no death. Death and life are totally incompatible and are complete opposite to one another. Any idea that sinners are granted any form of life as a punishment for their unbelief totally contradicts everything scripture tells us about the consequences of sin.
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Philip James
Well-Known Member
Hello Dcopymope,
Are you calling Jesus a false prophet? Is it not more likely that you are mistaken?
Peace!
Worms are like people. They continuously are producing offspring. In this sense the human race does not die. As we never run out of people, we also never run out of worms.
The passage I'm thinking of is the end of Isaiah, where it says, "their worm shall not die."
I guess I've never seen this as describing the life cycle of worms.
Much love!
Look at all of these worms in the Book of Isaiah:
Lucifer?
"Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee." Isaiah 14:11
Jacob? Consider here again the beast that man is and also as per Isaiah, a worm...
"Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel." Isaiah 41:14
The reproach of men and their revilings:
"For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, and my salvation from generation to generation." Isaiah 51:8 The worm, be it in the ground feasting on corpses or be it a beastly man feasting on the garbage that the flesh spreads abroad for our consumption, shall not touch the righteousness of God. Is there any of the righteousness of God in us? Is there any of the old man, left in us attracting us to the lust of the eye, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life? Jesus overcame the world, but have we?
"And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh." Isaiah 66:24 That worm is surely the beast that was not killed, the worm of the old man surviving on the garbage which other ungodly men produce or which the old man himself produces. Should that old man, that worm, be kept alive by feeding him more of the garbage he covets?
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