Where is hell? Where is heaven?

[quietthinker]

That was ignorant, as there are various types of death, physical, spiritual, eternal, temporal, asleep, etc.,...

It is man who categorises. God calls cessation of life Death....its no mystery!

 

[Heart2Soul]

@Nancy @BarnyFife @Backlit @Helen @101G @Hidden In Him @stredaleve @Heart2Soul @Mayflower @Triumph1300 and @everyone else interested...

And where is heaven, the place some sing about wanting to make it their home? Was not Jesus in heaven whilst still walking around on planet Earth as a man 2,000 years ago even before he went to the cross? If there are three heavens then what would be the difference between them? What if a shadow of the 3rd heaven is seen n the upper most level of the ark of Noah, where 8 persons rode out the storm; and the lowest level were a shadow of the 1st heaven wherein which the unclean beasts were saved from the flood? In between we see the other beasts, cleaned up already, but still beasts as in a 2nd heaven.

Do we suppose that to see God face to face we would have to attain to 3rd heaven? Surely no beasts there?

But then man born a beast even when he has been saved must have the uncleanness cleaned up and finally kill his beasts completely or...?

"I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts." Ecc 3:18

"Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars:
She hath killed her beasts; she hath mingled her wine; she hath also furnished her table." Prov. 9:1-2

And where would one get this Wisdom?

"So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding;
Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding;
If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures;
Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.
For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding." Prov. 2:2-6

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding" Prov 9:10

When we pray The Lord's Prayer we say thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven....I have always considered this to mean heaven is here on earth within us. We being His temple, His kingdom reigns within us as we walk upright and are obedient to His Word.
JM2C

 

[Heart2Soul]

Amadeus , remember this . In this life often the evil and the wicked do prosper .
Its the lambs that often suffer at the hands of men .
Just like the rich man and lazarous . Believe you me , this world can get real rough
but it has no depths of suffering as does the lake of fire .
Now allow me to PRAISE GOD for a second . OH PRAISE GOD for your mercy on this hog who earned a seat in the lake of fire .
OH PRAISE JESUS . OH I say PRAISE JESUS . Now my end shall be good . Let us continue in the FAITH to the very end .
THE HOPE we have in JESUS .
But believe me , the wicked often prosper in this life , often have it easy , as the psalmist once said .
He was even envious at the wicked and how they seem to prosper in this life ,
OH but then he went into the tabernacle of GOD and saw THEIR END . OH its real my friend and it awaits all who reject JESUS .

It rains on the just and the unjust alike.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Are not many people today effectively dead and in the grave in the eyes of God? All of us were there, but Jesus was sent into this place of death, this grave, this hell, this prison of ours and he preached to us. Some of us listened and are listening. Some of us have done something right with what we heard.

Jesus has visited me in my hell. He is helping me replace hell with heaven. Is he similarly helping you?

We use hell metaphorically (like it is hot as hell) but hell is the grave or place of the dead. The body goes into th eground but the soul of the lost goes to the place of torments awaiting final disposition into the lake of fire!

 

[Brakelite]

but the soul of the lost goes to the place of torments awaiting final disposition into the lake of fire!

Do you have a scripture to confirm that the soul of anyone is a separate cognizant being without the spirit or the flesh? I mean, it opens up a lot of questions.
Without the brain how does the soul think, speak, see, hear, touch, or feel?
Without the breath (Spirit) how does it breathe?
Without the breath of life how is it even alive? Now of course that is if we are talking about the same thing. I see things s little differently. Genesis tells us that when God breathed into the body the breath of life, that combination of mud and Spirit became a soul. Therefore, of one of those components was removed, like the dead body for example, we are told that the spirit returns to God who gave it, but we are left to presume that the soul... What? Surely it must cease to exist. The body's dead. The breathe is gone. All that's left is a memory in the mind of God. Anything else is pure unwarranted conjecture is it not?

 

[marks]

Isaiah 66:24 That worm is surely the beast that was not killed, the worm of the old man surviving on the garbage which other ungodly men produce or which the old man himself produces. Should that old man, that worm, be kept alive by feeding him more of the garbage he covets?

In my way, I agree with you, yes, that's the worm of the old man never redeemed, now destroyed, but that Isaiah says does not die.

But not surviving on anything provided other than having been created by God, I don't think.

Much love!

 

[Brakelite]

@Nancy @BarnyFife @Backlit @Helen @101G @Hidden In Him @stredaleve @Heart2Soul @Mayflower @Triumph1300 and @everyone else interested...

And where is heaven, the place some sing about wanting to make it their home? Was not Jesus in heaven whilst still walking around on planet Earth as a man 2,000 years ago even before he went to the cross? If there are three heavens then what would be the difference between them? What if a shadow of the 3rd heaven is seen n the upper most level of the ark of Noah, where 8 persons rode out the storm; and the lowest level were a shadow of the 1st heaven wherein which the unclean beasts were saved from the flood? In between we see the other beasts, cleaned up already, but still beasts as in a 2nd heaven.

Do we suppose that to see God face to face we would have to attain to 3rd heaven? Surely no beasts there?

But then man born a beast even when he has been saved must have the uncleanness cleaned up and finally kill his beasts completely or...?

"I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts." Ecc 3:18

"Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars:
She hath killed her beasts; she hath mingled her wine; she hath also furnished her table." Prov. 9:1-2

And where would one get this Wisdom?

"So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding;
Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding;
If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures;
Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.
For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding." Prov. 2:2-6

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding" Prov 9:10

I agree with you that heaven and hell begin as a mindset. We become children of the kingdom even though we haven't physically been there yet... In the meantime we are ambassadors in a foreign land under the cruel tyranny of a usurper who no longer legally runs it. But soon praise God the rightful heir is coming to destroy those occupying forces and take His bride back with Him and introduce them to their Father in law.
In the meantime this planet will be a dead desolate grave yard. The only living creatures will be evil angels. For 1000 years they will be locked in by a chain of circumstance and have nothing more nor less to do but look forward to their destruction. At the end, we will return here to witness the recreation of a new earth and new heaven. This planet, with the new Jerusalem and the Father and the Son in residence with their adopted family, will be the capital of the universe. Cool bikkies huh.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Do you have a scripture to confirm that the soul of anyone is a separate cognizant being without the spirit or the flesh? I mean, it opens up a lot of questions.
Without the brain how does the soul think, speak, see, hear, touch, or feel?
Without the breath (Spirit) how does it breathe?
Without the breath of life how is it even alive? Now of course that is if we are talking about the same thing. I see things s little differently. Genesis tells us that when God breathed into the body the breath of life, that combination of mud and Spirit became a soul. Therefore, of one of those components was removed, like the dead body for example, we are told that the spirit returns to God who gave it, but we are left to presume that the soul... What? Surely it must cease to exist. The body's dead. The breathe is gone. All that's left is a memory in the mind of God. Anything else is pure unwarranted conjecture is it not?

1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Luke 16:19-31
King James Version

19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

1 Peter 3:19-20
King James Version

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

These should suffice.

Hope it helps.

 

[Enoch111]

I agree with you that heaven and hell begin as a mindset.

So belief in Heaven and Hell is not related in any way to objective truth as presented by Christ Himself? What absurdity!

The only reason Christians have held to the doctrines of Heaven and Hell are because they are presented in the Bible -- the Word of God. It is the cults who have tried to dodge the plain meaning of Scripture, and also tried to misrepresent Heaven and Hell. So it does not have anything with beginning as a mindset. These are objective truths given by divine revelation. Had they not been in the Bible, we could not believe in them. Therefore those who reject Bible doctrines are essentially saying that they do not believe God and Christ.

One could lay out the Scriptural foundations of these doctrines in great detail, but people who have chosen to reject the plain truth will simply ignore the truth. This is just like the doctrine of the deity of Christ. It is so plainly embedded in Scripture that no one can miss it. Yet we have a number of cults blatantly denying that Jesus is God.

 

[amadeus]

When we pray The Lord's Prayer we say thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven....I have always considered this to mean heaven is here on earth within us. We being His temple, His kingdom reigns within us as we walk upright and are obedient to His Word.
JM2C

Yes, for me much of the time I see the "earth" mentioned in the Bible as the little bit of dirt of which our bodies are formed. [Instead of "on" earth, read "in" earth.] Even when Jesus came to visit hell, he was also in heaven... perhaps not 3rd heaven except maybe during the transfiguration. That is not so clear as all of that, but it is based on my own vision derived from what is written. I do hope to be moved into a clearer view.

 

[amadeus]

We use hell metaphorically (like it is hot as hell) but hell is the grave or place of the dead. The body goes into th eground but the soul of the lost goes to the place of torments awaiting final disposition into the lake of fire!

This is a common view, but not everyone agrees with it. When our time comes, perhaps we will know the truth of the matter!

 

[Brakelite]

1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Luke 16:19-31
King James Version

19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

1 Peter 3:19-20
King James Version

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

These should suffice.

Hope it helps.

No, they don't suffice. They are the same old tired go-to texts that have been dragged up for eons and for which there have always been adequate rebuttals and explanations as to how and why they don't say what you want them to. Three examples... First
The parable of Lazarus... He is described as having a tongue... The rich man a finger... Since when do souls have such things without a body? In order to justify your interpretation you first have to discard Genesis which says, man became a living soul.
Second...1 Peter isn't talking about Jesus going anywhere to preach while He was dead. Read more carefully... It is speaking of the spirit of Christ in Noah preaching to those who were imprisoned by sin in Noah's day, who are now dead...

Third...The other texts you offer do not support a separate conscious entity living independently of the body. Replace the word 'soul' with the expression "thinking rational being"(nephesh/psuche) and it will make perfect sense and agree with the rest of scripture. Like
Ezekiel 18:4, Proverbs 8:36 etc. It is the whole person... Not just one part with it's own conscious existence without the other parts.

However, many people have gone before me and explained this far more comprehensively than I. Your answers and responses are typical but do not go anywhere near justifying the belief in man having innate immortality and cannot die. Which if you took your beliefs to their conclusion, you would have to prove.

 

[quietthinker]

Yes, for me much of the time I see the "earth" mentioned in the Bible as the little bit of dirt of which our bodies are formed. [Instead of "on" earth, read "in" earth.] Even when Jesus came to visit hell, he was also in heaven... perhaps not 3rd heaven except maybe during the transfiguration. That is not so clear as all of that, but it is based on my own vision derived from what is written. I do hope to be moved into a clearer view.

didn't you know amadeus that heaven exists with fairies with membrane like wings, purple coloured leaves that glisten and glow, worms with big eyes that talk and angels that have feathers and play harps with choirs that sing the same words over and over (holy holy holy) day and night.

 

[Dcopymope]

Hello Dcopymope,

Are you calling Jesus a false prophet? Is it not more likely that you are mistaken?

Peace!

No, I am saying that before Revelation, no one had the full picture of how end times events were to play out, not even Jesus. They only knew it in part. That's why its called revelation, which he makes clear he received from his Father in the very first chapter. That's why its easy for me to tell when someone hasn't truly sat down and read through the book, and compared it to the rest of the books when they give their spiel about there not being a "rapture", or there being a rapture but its "post-trib", "pre-trib", etc. Revelation is not as straight forward as they try and make it out to be. And not knowing who the true Hebrew descendants are isn't going to help you understand it any better either. You're gonna get prophecy wrong every single time.

 

[Brakelite]

So belief in Heaven and Hell is not related in any way to objective truth as presented by Christ Himself? What absurdity!

did I say that?

 

[Brakelite]

1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Luke 16:19-31
King James Version

19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

1 Peter 3:19-20
King James Version

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

These should suffice.

Hope it helps.

My initial question was, without a brain and/or body parts, how does a soul operate? Your texts suggest that whoever you are speaking of does have those body parts... So when does the transition from a body-less entity to a thinking physical entity occur? It must be after the Resurrection right? So none of those texts can refer to a time when bodies are still in the grave surely?

 

[amadeus]

Where is hell? In the heart - center - of the earth.

I know, seems strange, but that's the Bible!

Much love!

Consider this:

"Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:21

What is the world of which hell is in the center? Why is it not the world encompassed by this bit of flesh formed from the dust of the same globe we name planet Earth. Consider then the source of a man's defilement:

"Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man" Matt 15:11

 

[marks]

did I say that?

Of course not! Who would say that??

Much love!

 

[marks]

Consider this:

"Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:21

What is the world of which hell is in the center? Why is it not the world encompassed by this bit of flesh formed from the dust of the same globe we name planet Earth. Consider then the source of a man's defilement:

"Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man" Matt 15:11

In the heart of the earth.

This is not the same as saying in the center of the world. The Greek Ge is land, earth, dirt, in the heart of the earth is the middle of the planet, if you want to go with the basic meanings of the Greek.

Not the world, the earth.

Much love!

 

[DNB]

It is man who categorises. God calls cessation of life Death....its no mystery!

Not at all QT, like I said, there are various types of death, and I gave examples.
But, out of curiosity, ....first, may I ask what you are actually referring to - Annihilation?
and two, how does this relate to me, are you contesting my position? If so, that's fine, I just don't know where your comment came from, what it ultimately means, and what it applies to...?
Thanks!