You mean the child of Ahab, born in ~700 BC? That is who the passages refers to despite trinitarians claims to the contrary. Can you give a reason why Jews say Isaiah 9:6 does not refer to Jesus?
The Case Against the Trinity
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You mean the child of Ahab, born in ~700 BC? That is who the passages refers to despite trinitarians claims to the contrary. Can you give a reason why Jews say Isaiah 9:6 does not refer to Jesus?
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
I'm not going to stop believing that the Only Begotten Son of God is the Word. I'm going to continue to believe that it was the Only Begotten Son of God that God sent to the world of mankind to save mankind. I'm not going to stop believing it was the Only Begotten Son of God that God resurrected three days after his death. The scriptures are what I agree with not a persons interpretation of what is written down in the Bible. The Trinity, immortality of the soul, and hellfire doctrine are not scriptural no matter how much you say they are. You nor anyone else are going to teach me I have to change and believe in false doctrine. If you and others don't like that then so be it. I'm not going to deny scripture.
2nd Timothy Group
Well-Known Member
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
But he doesn't do! As He said about teh shepherd- He goes and finds the lost sheep!
He leaves the wheat and weeds grow together and then separates the wheat from the weeds.
Remember the church, we are the elect from before the foundation of the world according to Ephesians.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
And if that is all Gods Inspired Word said, I would agree with you ! But JOhn 1:1 declares jesus is God with God.
What the watchtower has done is take Jesus' position in the Trinity and use that to show He is not God.
Well He is not His Father, He is the Son. God is a title describing essence or nature! Jesus is equally God with HIs Father, but is not HIs father.
Just like you and I we are both 100% equally human, but I am not you! Same with the Father Son and Spirit! They are all equally God but not equal in position!
The Father is above the Son who is above the Spirit!
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
It's not written in John 1:1 that God was with God. John 1:1 says that in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with the God and the Word was a god, or was devine.
What most people don't have faith in is that the Only Begotten Son of God is the Word that became human, that it was the Only Begotten Son of God that God sent to the World of mankind to save humanity.
What the watchtower has done is tell everyone what the scriptures have always said and that is that Jesus has always said he is the Only Begotten Son of God. That Jesus said that he has a Father and God that is our Father and God. Jesus has never said he was God.
If Jesus is the only begotten Son, then you have to accept that fact that He is going to have the name of "The everlasting Father." (Isaiah 9:6).
That means that who He is on the inside, is the Father (see John 4:23-24, John 14:7-11).
Yes, the only begotten Son died for mankind; and the only begotten Son is the Father in His Spirit (Isaiah 9:6; John 4:23-24, John 14:7-11)
The scriptures teach in favour of this (2 Corinthians 5:7).
Jesus is the Son in that He is incarnated in flesh. In His Spirit, He is the Father (Isaiah 9:6; John 4:23-24, John 14:7-11).
Actually, no. For if you will not believe that Jesus is the great I AM, you will die in your sins (John 8:24).
Actually, it would appear that the scriptures changed to not say that, when they translated the NeWT.
In John 1:1, there is a clear change in the translation away from the way that every valid translation translates that verse.
The Father became a Man (Isaiah 9:6).
Obviously, God raised Jesus from the dead (Romans 10:9).
That Jesus raised Himself from the dead is also an accurate statement (John 10:17-18).
So, you have to consider this as evidence that Jesus just might be God.
1Co 8:6, But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; <even> one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
It should be clear that God the Father is the Lord Jesus Christ by simple virtue of the fact that there is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5) and that that Lord is both Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 8:6, 1 Corinthians 12:3 (kjv)) and the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21).
I'll put it another way.
There is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5); and we know Him to be the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21), But no one can say that Jesus is the Lord except by the Spirit of truth (1 Corinthians 12:3 (kjv)). And, Jesus is the one Lord of holy scripture (1 Corinthians 8:6).
If you think about these things only for a few minutes, I believe that you will come to the proper conclusion.
Actually, they are not unscriptural no matter how much you say that they are.
God does indeed transform people into new creatures in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17 (kjv)).
I beg to differ. Jesus broke grammar in order to make a claim in John 8:58, referring back to Exodus 3:14 (kjv).
The scribes and Pharisees understood Him to be claiming to be God and sought to stone Him for it (see John 8:59, John 10:31-33).
This certainly is trinitarian thinking. However, lords and almighty God are different. While there is only one God, there are many lords in the world. Lord Vader. Lord Voldemort. Lord Cornwallis. Lord David. Lord Jesus. The landlord is the one we owe fidelity to, as we do to any lord. What Paul is saying in the 2nd part of the verse is who followers of the way owe loyalty, Lord Jesus. True enough.
However, God and his servant(s) are not the same and this point is made thousands of times throughout the Bible. 1 Corinthians 11:3 would not tell us there is a hierarchy between the 2 IF they were one in the same. It might make sense to say President Biden is the head of the military but it would make no sense to say President Biden is the head of Hunter Biden, if they were one and the same being.
And, again for clarification, which trinitarians seem to ignore at every turn; this thread is the case against the trinity and it is a strawman to merely assert the 'man is god' thesis.
I'd like to examine your other Scriptural verses when I have time. But let me ask this question, if Jesus were God, why would he say he is going to his God in John 20:17 and repeatedly refer to his God in Revelation 3? (nobody 'goes' to be with themselves for one is always with themselves).
So, @Wrangler, you deny that Jesus is the Lord and would contend that He is a lord?
I would say to you that in denying that Jesus is the Lord, you bewray yourself as not having the Holy Ghost.
1Co 12:3, Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
Rom 8:9, But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
I would say to you that in denying that Jesus is the Lord, you bewray yourself as not having the Holy Ghost.
1Co 12:3, Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
Rom 8:9, But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
well that is teh New World Mistranslation which no respectable scholar accepts. God in both cases is THEOS so if Jesus is DIVINE so isn't the Father.
The Word was with THE GOd(the article appears) and the Word was God (construct is not an anarthrous noun as the Watchtower has lied to you)
that is true but that son existed in eterntiy past as Jehovah, just as Isaiah saysJesus is!
Yes He did say He was God and it wouldn't surprise me if the Watchtower edited it out of their paraphrase of Scripture.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Yes they are called teh elect from before the foundation of the world. We were marked by god for salvation prior to creation. All it took was time to get to teh place God already decreed us to be.
Sorry Barney, my accusation was meant for 2nd Tim Group. I'm 100% in accord with your position. I despise the doctrine of the trinity, I am convinced that it is straight from the devil, for all the reasons that you stated and more...
I meant to support you by replying to your post, attempting to add to what you had already stated. Sorry for the confusion.
There is not one glorifying aspect of that doctrine on any level, on any facet of Christian theology, not one. It is the most ignoble doctrine in all of Christendom!
You said God is the one who raised Jesus so I provided scripture which shows that Jesus holds the power to take his own life back from the dead again, proving his diety. My response doesn't need to be more complicated than that.
Did you not read this verse? It says Jesus is Lord. Did you not know that YHWH was called Lord all throughout the old Testament?
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
Sorry you're right I thought you believed in the Trinity and was speaking out against what I was saying. I'm sorry.
At John 1:1 Marshall’s interlinear translation of it reads: “In [the] beginning was the Word, and the Word was with — God, and God was the Word.” As noted above, no “the” appears before “God” in the final clause of this verse. The New World Bible Translation Committee chose to insert the indefinite article “a” there. This helps to distinguish “the Word,” Jesus Christ, as a god, or divine person with vast power, from the God whom he was “with,” Jehovah, the Almighty. Some persons familiar with Greek claim that in doing so the translators violated an important rule of Greek grammar. Why so?
The problem, they say, is word order. Back in 1933 Greek scholar E. C. Colwell published an article entitled “A Definite Rule for the Use of the Article in the Greek New Testament.” In it he wrote: “A definite predicate nominative has the article when it follows the verb; it does not have the article when it precedes the verb. . . . A predicate nominative which precedes the verb cannot be translated as an indefinite or a ‘qualitative’ noun solely because of the absence of the article; if the context suggests that the predicate is definite, it should be translated as a definite noun in spite of the absence of the article.”
At John 1:1 the anarthrous predicate noun the·osʹ does precede the verb, the Greek word order being literally: “God [predicate] was [verb] the Word [subject].” Concerning this verse Colwell concluded: “The opening verse of John’s Gospel contains one of the many passages where this rule suggests the translation of a predicate as a definite noun.” Thus some scholars claim that the only really correct way to translate this clause is: “And the Word was God.”
Do these statements of Colwell prove that “a god” is a mistranslation at John 1:1? Perhaps you noticed this scholar’s wording that an anarthrous predicate noun that precedes the verb should be understood as definite “if the context suggests” that. Further along in his argument Colwell stressed that the predicate is indefinite in this position “only when the context demands it.” Nowhere did he state that all anarthrous predicate nouns that precede the verb in Greek are definite nouns. Not any inviolable rule of grammar, but context must guide the translator in such cases.
The Greek text of the Christian Scriptures has many examples of this type of predicate noun where other translators into English have added the indefinite article “a.” Consider, for example, Marshall’s interlinear translation of the following verses: “Says to him the woman: Sir, I perceive that a prophet [predicate] art [verb] thou [subject].” (John 4:19) “Said therefore to him—Pilate: Not really a king [predicate] art [verb] thou [subject]? Answered—Jesus: Thou sayest that a king [predicate] I am [verb, with subject included].”—John 18:37.
Did you notice the expressions “a prophet,” “a king” (twice)? These are anarthrous predicate nouns that precede the verb in Greek. But the translator rendered them with the indefinite article “a.” There are numerous examples of this in English versions of the Bible. For further illustration consider the following from the Gospel of John in The New English Bible: “A devil” (Joh 6:70); “a slave” (Joh 8:34); “a murderer . . . a liar” (Joh 8:44); “a thief” (Joh 10:1); “a hireling” (Joh 10:13); “a relation” (Joh 18:26).
Alfred Marshall explains why he used the indefinite article in his interlinear translation of all the verses mentioned in the two previous paragraphs, and in many more: “The use of it in translation is a matter of individual judgement. . . . We have inserted ‘a’ or ‘an’ as a matter of course where it seems called for.” Of course, neither Colwell (as noted above) nor Marshall felt that an “a” before “god” at John 1:1 was called for. But this was not because of any inflexible rule of grammar. It was “individual judgement,” which scholars and translators have a right to express. The New World Bible Translation Committee expressed a different judgment in this place by the translation “a god.”
Certain scholars have pointed out that anarthrous predicate nouns that precede the verb in Greek may have a qualitative significance. That is, they may describe the nature or status of the subject. Thus some translators render John 1:1: “The Logos was divine,” (Moffatt); “the Word was divine,” (Goodspeed); “the nature of the Word was the same as the nature of God,” (Barclay); “the Word was with God and shared his nature,” (The Translator’s New Testament).
Yes, it should be obvious that we are all born as sinners and therefore would qualify as tares until God turns us into wheat; new creatures in Christ wherein the old has passed away and all things have become new.
I do believe that this means that before we came to Christ, our hearts were deceitfful above all things and desperately wicked (Jeremiah 17:9); but that now that God has given us a new heart and a new spirit (Ezekiel 36:25-27), our hearts have become honest and good (Luke 8:15).
I think that you have to face the problem your theology presents when we look at John 17:3.
In light of that verse, I would ask you the question of whether you believe that Jesus is the true God or is He a false god?
Because there is only one true God according to that verse; and therefore, any competing "god" would have to qualify as a false god.
So, your theology that Jesus was "a god" means that Jesus is a false god.
Should you then believe in Him?
Jesus Himself predicates everlasting life on believing in Him (John 6:47).
But how can anyone do so believing that He is a false god?
Please note that in John 17:3, the Greek word for "and" is "kai" and it can be translated as "even".
LORD ≠ Lord.
LORD = almighty God. YHWH.
Lord = many whom fidelity is owed. Lord Vader. Lord Sidious. Lord Voldemort. Lord Cornwallis. First Lord of the Admiralty. Lord David. None are God.
Nathan (to Bathsheba, Solomon’s mother): 11 Do you not know the news? Adonijah (Haggith’s son) is now king, and David our lord does not know it yet.
1 Kings 1:11 (Voice)
Sure. The CEV translation states in the OT Psalms that God alone saves and is our (ultimate) Savior. God tends to do things through others. See prophets. Perhaps you are not familiar with Christianity's end game? For Jesus to hand all things reconciled back to God (not 'the Father' but God, in his unitarian nature).
23 But this is how it will happen: the Anointed’s awakening is the firstfruits. It will be followed by the resurrection of all those who belong to Him at His coming, 24 and then the end will come. After He has conquered His enemies and shut down every rule and authority vying for power, He will hand over the Kingdom to God, the Father of all that is. 25 And He must reign as King until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last hostile power to be destroyed is death itself. 27 All this will happen to fulfill the Scripture that says, “You placed everything on earth beneath His feet.”[a] (Although it says “everything,” it is clear that this does not also pertain to God, who created everything and made it all subject to Him.) 28 Then, when all creation has taken its rightful place beneath God’s sovereign reign, the Son will follow, subject to the Father who exalted Him over all created things; then God will be God over all.
1 Corinthians 15:23-28 (Voice)
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