The Case Against the Trinity

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101G

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No, there is one God, the LORD, capital. There are many lowercase, lords. While any group of people only have only one lord at a time, the Christian lord Jesus was given authority by the LORD God. Hierarchy. Equality. Not Equal. NOTE: The head of Christ is not 'the Father' but God in his unitarian nature.


But there is one thing I want you to know: The head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
1 Corinthians 11:3
Psalms 110:1 "A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool."
this is the same one person, on in "diversity". and here's the reason why, while in Psalms 110, go to verse #5, listen, Psalms 110:5 "The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath."
here the same "Lord" in verse #1, is LORD, all Caps.
H136 אֲדֹנָי 'Adonay (ad-o-noy') n-m.
1. (meaning) Lord (used as a proper name of God only).
2. (person) Adonai, The Lord God of Israel (which is actually “Yahweh God of Israel” - see Exodus 5:1 and 120 other occurrences).
[am emphatic form of H113]
KJV: (my) Lord.
Root(s): H113

am emphatic form of H113? yes the Lord in verse #1.

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101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
 

101G

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No, not quite. If you read the whole chapter, it is talking about renewing things through Christ. The recreation of all things reconciled through Jesus to God is NOT the same as creation by God in Genesis.
Correct. this is the Revelation of Psalms 110:1
the Lord is the LORD "shared" in flesh. understand, the Lord, who is the ordinal Last, is the LORD, the ordinal First in flesh and blood. see, Jesus the christ, the ordinal last was not at Genesis 1:26 & 27, nor Genesis 1:1, not Jesus the CHRIT, but Jesus the Spirit was.

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101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
 

Ronald Nolette

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The name Immanuel is first mentioned by the prophet Isaiah (7:14; 8:8) during the reign of Ahaz (761-746 B.C.E.).
In that eighth century B.C.E., Pekah and Rezin, the kings of Israel and Syria, were bent on overthrowing Ahaz, king of Judah, in order to put the son of Tabeel upon his throne. (Isa 7:1-6) Jehovah, however, remembered his kingdom covenant with David, the forefather of Ahaz, and sent his prophet with this reassuring message:

“Listen, please, O house of David. . . . Jehovah himself will give you men a sign: Look! The maiden herself will actually become pregnant, and she is giving birth to a son, and she will certainly call his name Immanuel. Butter and honey he will eat by the time that he knows how to reject the bad and choose the good. For before the boy will know how to reject the bad and choose the good, the ground of whose two kings you are feeling a sickening dread will be left entirely.”—Isa 7:13-16.
The point is 2nd Timothy since this person who lived in the time of king Ahaz of the 8th century B.C.E. who name is Immanuel am I to believe this person who died long before Jesus was born a human to be God simply because the scriptures say his name is Immanuel, I don't think so.

Well the NWT notwithstanding The prophecy was about Jesus! there was no person named Immanuel born in the 7th or 8th Century B.C.

2 Chapters later God reminds who this Emmanuel will be:

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

chapter 7 lets us know he will have a virgin birth and be called God with Us. the angel Gabriel even confirmed this:

Matthew 1:23
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Jesus was God with Us!

John 1
King James Version

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Yes, but we do not know who are goats and who are potential sheep. Paul held the cloaks of those stoning Stephen, and attacked the saints himself in the early church. Yet, I suspect that Stephens actions had a huge effect on Paul.

Far more have been turned away from Christianity due to our lack of fruit, than drawn to it by the love we have one for another.

WEll that may be true- but it is not our behavior or deep love for the lost that draws men to Jesus! God draws men to Jesus through th epreaching of teh gospel!

Romans 1

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Romans 1:16
King James Version

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

The power is not in our life- but in the gospel! That is not an excuse to live lousy for we are not to do so, but those who are goats will not accept the gospel under any circumstances.

OUr job is to sow the gospel and harvest the wheat. we are never told to turn the weeds to wheat or turn the goats to sheep!

Just look at Jesus! He performed the three messianic miracles the pharisees taught only Messiah could perform and they still did not believe! They knew He was Messiah but rejected HIm anyway.

I agree we do not know who are sheep and who are goats. We are just to love them all as much as possible and God will sort them out!
 

ReChoired

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Unitarianism is simply the flipside of the same erroneous coin that Trinitarianism is on. They both teach, incorrectly, a singularity. The truth of the matter is, there are Three Eternal Persons/Beings, that work together, as a "Trio" in scripture.

Would you be willing to discuss, scripturally, your points above?

You stated:

Correct, by scripture:

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;​

You stated:

Incorrect. Here is where you erred at the outset. The Son of the Father, is as eternal as the Father is, by scripture itself:

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Pro 8:30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

1Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
1Jn 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
1Jn 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.​

The Son already existed before all created things "with" the Father. There was never a time of existence in which the Father exists, that the Son did not also exist with the Father. The Throne of God has eternally had two places, The place for the Father, and at His right hand the place for the Son. The Third Person of the Godhead (Holy Ghost/Spirit), may also be discussed, as He is more mysterious than the other two in the sense of Personality (Personhood), as His nature is not told us in scripture, but is not in focus in this present response to this point.

In fact, the Father, could not have been eternally "the Father", if the Son had not eternally existed alongside "with" the Father. The "Father" would then have 'become' a Father, which is a change of character, which the Bible does not teach.

There is no place in scripture, in which the Son is 'created'. The human flesh body (Hebrews 10:5; Psalms 40:6) is 'created' for Him (the Son) at a later period, but not the Person of the Son Himself. Philippians, and the other texts noted, are clear:

Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.​

The Son can only witness of the Eternal Nature and Character of the Father, if He was present at all such existence/time "with" the Father, otherwise, He would be merely guessing. He could not even have demonstrated that name on earth, unless He experienced that in/from eternity "with" the Father.
Wrangler, my points? Will you be addressing me, or only others? If so, let me know please, and I will leave this thread.
 

justbyfaith

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If the Son is referenced as 'Almighty God', and at the same time 'Everlasting Father', which patently contradicts trinitarian theology,

It doesn't contradict my Trinitarian theology.

True Trinity. (posts #1-#6).

No, there is one God, the LORD, capital. There are many lowercase, lords. While any group of people only have only one lord at a time, the Christian lord Jesus was given authority by the LORD God. Hierarchy. Equality. Not Equal. NOTE: The head of Christ is not 'the Father' but God in his unitarian nature.


But there is one thing I want you to know: The head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
1 Corinthians 11:3

So, you're saying that Jesus is a lord, correct?

That is entirely different from what God says is the statement of those who have the Holy Ghost:

1Co 12:3, Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

As concerning what you said about 1 Corinthians 11:3, I would only refer you to the following scripture.

Col 2:8, Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9, For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.


we are never told to turn the weeds to wheat or turn the goats to sheep!

However, that is something that God can do (2 Corinthians 5:17 (kjv)).
 
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BARNEY BRIGHT

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The Lord Himself is the one saying that Immanuel, meaning "God is with us," is dwelling amongst us. What you believe about Immanuel of the Old Testament is up to you.

The point is the name Immanuel means "God is with us," I'm not going to believe that Immanuel of the old testament is God or that Jesus is God simply because the name Immanuel means God is with us. It's unreasonable to believe that way. According to you I'm supposed to believe that many of the hebrew men born during old testament times were God simply because of what their names meant. Like the Hebrew man Jehu name meant Jehovah is he. I'm not going to believe Jehu was Jehovah God just because his name meant Jehovah is he. That is unreasonable.
 

friend of

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No, not quite. If you read the whole chapter, it is talking about renewing things through Christ. The recreation of all things reconciled through Jesus to God is NOT the same as creation by God in Genesis.

Only God could defeat all of humanity's sin, my friend.
 

justbyfaith

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The point is the name Immanuel means "God is with us," I'm not going to believe that Immanuel of the old testament is God or that Jesus is God simply because the name Immanuel means God is with us. It's unreasonable to believe that way. According to you I'm supposed to believe that many of the hebrew men born during old testament times were God simply because of what their names meant. Like the Hebrew man Jehu name meant Jehovah is he. I'm not going to believe Jehu was Jehovah God just because his name meant Jehovah is he. That is unreasonable.

Thing is, Jesus did not have the name of Immanuel except by application of what the name means ("God with us")...for His name is "Jesus Christ of Nazareth".
 
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DNB

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The point is the name Immanuel means "God is with us," I'm not going to believe that Immanuel of the old testament is God or that Jesus is God simply because the name Immanuel means God is with us. It's unreasonable to believe that way. According to you I'm supposed to believe that many of the hebrew men born during old testament times were God simply because of what their names meant. Like the Hebrew man Jehu name meant Jehovah is he. I'm not going to believe Jehu was Jehovah God just because his name meant Jehovah is he. That is unreasonable.
@2nd Timothy Group it's called Theophory, and is used extensively throughout the Bible. Many characters had theophoric names applied to them. Those below are derived from the word El or Elohim. But Baal, Yahweh are also common theophoric prefixes or suffixes.

But, above all, Immanuel means, IN CONTEXT, God has not abandoned His people. After the northern tribes diaspora, after 70 tears of captivity, 400 yrs of silence, and outstanding fulfillment of the Davidic promises not yet realized, and you still have to question what the word Emmanuel means???? You would rather jump off the deep-end and conclude an incomprehensible god-man theory, rather than employ tota-scriptura and realize how the history of the Jews culminates in God making good on His promises towards His chosen ones?

Daniel: "God is my judge" or "justice from God"
Elijah: "my God is YHWH"
Elisha: "my God is salvation"
Elizabeth: "my God is an oath" or "my God is abundance"
Immanuel: "God is with us"
Ezekiel: "God will strengthen"
Gabriel: "God is my strength"
Ishmael: "God listens"
Israel: "who struggles with God"
Michael: "Who is like God?"
Nathaniel: "God-given" or "gift of God"
Raphael: "God heals/God is great"
Samuel: "God heard"
Uriel: "God is my light"
 
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2nd Timothy Group

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The point is the name Immanuel means "God is with us," I'm not going to believe that Immanuel of the old testament is God or that Jesus is God simply because the name Immanuel means God is with us. It's unreasonable to believe that way. According to you, I'm supposed to believe that many of the Hebrew men born during old testament times were God simply because of what their names meant. Like the Hebrew man, Jehu's name meant Jehovah is he. I'm not going to believe Jehu was Jehovah God just because his name meant Jehovah, is he. That is unreasonable.

Ok. I'm not asking you to believe me. I'm asking you to believe the Word of God, and those are two different things. Believe what you want.
 

DNB

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Only God could defeat all of humanity's sin, my friend.
How so? You're speaking trinitarian nonsense. Man's sins are not against nature, the universe, or man himself, they are against God's Laws. How in the flippin' world does God intervene, or act as mediator, in regard to someone violating His own precepts????
 

justbyfaith

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@2nd Timothy Group it's called Theophory, and is used extensively throughout the Bible. Many characters had theophoric names applied to them. Those below are derived from the word El or Elohim. But Baal, Yahweh are also common theophoric prefixes or suffixes.

But, above all, Immanuel means, IN CONTEXT, God has not abandoned His people. After the northern tribes diaspora, after 70 tears of captivity, 400 yrs of silence, and outstanding fulfillment of the Davidic promises not yet realized, you have to question what Emmanuel means???? You would rather jump off the deep-end and conclude an incomprehensible god-man theory, rather than employ tota-scriptura and realize how the history of the Jews culminates in God making good on His promises towards His chosen ones?

Daniel: "God is my judge" or "justice from God"
Elijah: "my God is YHWH"
Elisha: "my God is salvation"
Elizabeth: "my God is an oath" or "my God is abundance"
Immanuel: "God is with us"
Ezekiel: "God will strengthen"
Gabriel: "God is my strength"
Ishmael: "God listens"
Israel: "who struggles with God"
Michael: "Who is like God?"
Nathaniel: "God-given" or "gift of God"
Raphael: "God heals/God is great"
Samuel: "God heard"
Uriel: "God is my light"
I believe that my post (post #89 (The Case Against the Trinity)) trumps your post.
 

justbyfaith

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How so? You're speaking trinitarian nonsense. Man's sins are not against nature, the universe, or man himself, they are against God's Laws. How in the flippin' world does God intervene, or act as mediator, in regard to someone violating His own precepts????
By taking the just penalty for our wrongdoing upon Himself.
 

2nd Timothy Group

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@2nd Timothy Group it's called Theophory, and is used extensively throughout the Bible. Many characters had theophoric names applied to them. Those below are derived from the word El or Elohim. But Baal, Yahweh are also common theophoric prefixes or suffixes.

But, above all, Immanuel means, IN CONTEXT, God has not abandoned His people. After the northern tribes diaspora, after 70 tears of captivity, 400 yrs of silence, and outstanding fulfillment of the Davidic promises not yet realized, you have to question what Emmanuel means???? You would rather jump off the deep-end and conclude an incomprehensible god-man theory, rather than employ tota-scriptura and realize how the history of the Jews culminates in God making good on His promises towards His chosen ones?

Daniel: "God is my judge" or "justice from God"
Elijah: "my God is YHWH"
Elisha: "my God is salvation"
Elizabeth: "my God is an oath" or "my God is abundance"
Immanuel: "God is with us"
Ezekiel: "God will strengthen"
Gabriel: "God is my strength"
Ishmael: "God listens"
Israel: "who struggles with God"
Michael: "Who is like God?"
Nathaniel: "God-given" or "gift of God"
Raphael: "God heals/God is great"
Samuel: "God heard"
Uriel: "God is my light"

Thanks for the lesson!
 
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justbyfaith

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an incomprehensible god-man theory,
No, it is not incomprehensible.

I will say that I understand it and that once you become able to accept it the doctrine is very simple.

Eph 3:3, How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph 3:4, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

True Trinity. (posts #1-#6).
 

DNB

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By taking the just penalty for our wrongdoing upon Himself.
JBF, please tell me that you're not that daft? Please re-read my contention, and try, try, try to understand it. Don't reply unless you have a competent response. Here's a hint, justice is not served when the victim or Judge, pays the penalty for the culprit. Please only respond accordingly.
 

justbyfaith

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JBF, please tell me that you're not that daft? Please re-read my contention, and try, try, try to understand it. Don't reply unless you have a competent response. Here's a hint, justice is not served when the victim or Judge, pays the penalty for the culprit. Please only respond accordingly.
Justice is indeed served by that very thing.

And that very thing is the gospel of Jesus Christ.

If you don't believe in it, then you don't believe in the gospel and are therefore not saved through faith in the gospel (see also 1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

(You really should read 1 Corinthians 1:18-29 and 1 Corinthians 2:13-14 in conjunction with my statements.)
 

DNB

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Justice is indeed served by that very thing.

And that very thing is the gospel of Jesus Christ.

If you don't believe in it, then you don't believe in the gospel and are therefore not saved through faith in the gospel (see also 1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

(You really should read 1 Corinthians 1:18-29 and 1 Corinthians 2:13-14 in conjunction with my statements.)
My fault, I never learn
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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Thing is, Jesus did not have the name of Immanuel except by application of what the name means ("God with us")...for His name is "Jesus Christ of Nazareth".

I agree that Jesus didn't have the name Immanuel except by application of what the name means. Jesus was God's Only Begotten Son who God sent to mankind as a perfect human and he represented God and did the work God had assigned his Only-begotten Son. For that reason it could be said that God was with us because, not because Jesus is God, but that Jesus who was and is Gods Only Begotten Son was representing God on earth.
 
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