The Case Against the Trinity

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justbyfaith

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I would contend that both in John 3:16 and 1 Peter 1:5, the root word has to do with genes.

Jesus is the only begotten at the time that He spoke the word in John 3:16.

After the Cross, others were also begotten through faith in Him.

So Jesus ceased to be the only begotten and became the first-begotten (Hebrews 1:6).

Because an only child ceases to be an only child as soon as new siblings are born.

In that, he or she becomes the firstborn.
 

DNB

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One can not study scripture and come to this conclusion that there is no trinity, the trinity or at least two members have been seen since creation, when God said let US creat man in OUR Image

while believing it is not a prerequisite, neither is the opposite,
You have to do much better than that if you are going to try and espouse something so radically implausible, and irrefutably nonsensible, as a three-in-one godhead.

There are many literary devices used in Scripture, this is evident to anyone who has read the Bible in its entirety. EG, at times God speaks, and when the same story is repeated in another area, and angel speaks (Exodus 3:1-4, Acts 7:30) . Don't lose your senses over a seemingly radical statement in the Bible.

Genesis 1:26-27
1:26. Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27. God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
 
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justbyfaith

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You have to do much better than that if you are going to try and espouse something so radically implausible, and irrefutably nonsensible, as a three-in-one godhead.

There are many literary devices used in Scripture, this is evident to anyone who has the Bible in its entirety. EG, at times God speaks, and when the same story is repeated in another area, and angel speaks (Exodus 3:1-4, Acts 7:30) . Don't lose your senses over a seemingly radical statement in the Bible.

Genesis 1:26-27
1:26. Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27. God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.


Shows both the plurality and the singularity of our Triune God.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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I have been taking those scriptures in context; you have been taking them out of context.

In context, John 2:19-21 indicates that Jesus rose bodily from the dead; and that is the bottom line.
Then you're so ignorant you can't read. 1 Corinthians 15 is speaking about the resurrection.
 

Eternally Grateful

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You have to do much better than that if you are going to try and espouse something so radically implausible, and irrefutably nonsensible, as a three-in-one godhead.

There are many literary devices used in Scripture, this is evident to anyone who has the Bible in its entirety. EG, at times God speaks, and when the same story is repeated in another area, and angel speaks (Exodus 3:1-4, Acts 7:30) . Don't lose your senses over a seemingly radical statement in the Bible.

Genesis 1:26-27
1:26. Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27. God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
You will have to do much better than that o convince me I am wrong,

Thee word translated God is Elohim, plural. His is singular

the word make also in its plural form

so whatever translation you have is in error

Again, you will have to do better than just mock me and try to push a poorly translated verse
 

DNB

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You will have to do much better than that o convince me I am wrong,

Thee word translated God is Elohim, plural. His is singular

the word make also in its plural form

so whatever translation you have is in error

Again, you will have to do better than just mock me and try to push a poorly translated verse
All translations have the plural in the first verse, and the singular in the second.
Do you not feel a responsibility in providing, at least, a more explicit statement, let alone didactic, for such an enigmatic and incomprehensible tenet?
You read my list of why, on such a fundamental level, the doctrine is unsound, is not the onus upon you trinitarians to come up with a more comprehensive and didactic testimony in order to justify your exegesis?
 

Philip James

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. I look forward to interesting exchanges. Shalom.

Hello Wrangler,
If you wish me to engage in any 'interesting exchanges' with you,

I must first insist that you withdraw the charges of idolatry and heresy.

If you do not, then that leaves us only with the discussion of who would adjudicate our dispute..

Peace be with you also!
 

Wrangler

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I must first insist that you withdraw the charges of idolatry and heresy.

I’m not sure why you are calling my words ‘charges’ for no legal Complaints were intended. I started another thread entitled Heresy Protestant Style. Maybe that is the place to begin.

Do you hold doctrines contrary to yours to be heresy - even if you do not use those words? If not, what words do you use to categorize such doctrines?

As far as idolatry; what is idolatry if not when God says ‘me’ in 1C & 2C, while 4th century trinitarians say ‘3’?
 

DNB

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Hello Wrangler,
If you wish me to engage in any 'interesting exchanges' with you,

I must first insist that you withdraw the charges of idolatry and heresy.

If you do not, then that leaves us only with the discussion of who would adjudicate our dispute..

Peace be with you also!
Why is a retraction of his statement required PJ, in order for you to engage with @Wrangler on this topic?
It stands to reason doesn't it, that if God's ontology is comprised of a trinity of persons, then denial of this fact would be heretical. In as much as it would be heretical and blasphemous to state that that the almighty, unquantifiable, indivisible and infinite God, has three separate and autonomous consciousnesses, when in fact He doesn't, but is unified, pure and complete as one.

So, Wrangler simply made a logical conclusion according to his convictions, which he enumerated the grounds for in his OP, to an extremely controversial subject matter. So controversial, that you need to show more reticence in believing that such an enigmatic, incomprehensible and absurd tenet, is orthodox.

In other words, feel free to attempt to refute Wrangler's contentions, instead of appealing to the mods for the retraction of a valid and thoughtful objection!
 
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Eternally Grateful

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All translations have the plural in the first verse, and the singular in the second.
Do you not feel a responsibility in providing, at least, a more explicit statement, let alone didactic, for such an enigmatic and incomprehensible tenet?
You read my list of why, on such a fundamental level, the doctrine is unsound, is not the onus upon you trinitarians to come up with a more comprehensive and didactic testimony in order to justify your exegesis?
All I need is one verse

but that’s not all I have

once again you will have to much more than this to convince me
 

Philip James

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I’m not sure why you are calling my words ‘charges’ for no legal Complaints were intended.

So just slander and calumny then?

All the more reason to withdraw your words if you wish to engage in discussion.

Peace!
 

Wrangler

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So just slander and calumny then?

All the more reason to withdraw your words if you wish to engage in discussion.

Peace!

Not really answers to my questions. Not sure why you suppose calling things by their proper name is slander. I guess we don't be having conversations. Oh well.

Peace.
 

Wrangler

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Why is a retraction of his statement required PJ, in order for you to engage with @Wrangler on this topic?

A trait among trinitarians; as a starting point, concede. The fact that the trinity is not in the Bible, the fact that Jesus never said believing in the trinity is a requirement to obtaining salvation is besides the point to trinitarianism.
 

Wrangler

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once again you will have to much more than this to convince me

I think there is a basic misunderstanding trinitarians have about this thread. It is not meant to debate but primarily to lay out the case AGAINST.

I do not suspect anything I post on-line will cause another to change their religious convictions. However, I want to point out that trinitarians have a very limited number of verses they cite to support their position. For instance, they often cite 'our image' plural that God said in Genesis 2. If that has weight, I submit the more than 5,000 times God is referred to in the singular pronoun carries more weight. Thoughts?
 

Eternally Grateful

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I think there is a basic misunderstanding trinitarians have about this thread. It is not meant to debate but primarily to lay out the case AGAINST.

I do not suspect anything I post on-line will cause another to change their religious convictions. However, I want to point out that trinitarians have a very limited number of verses they cite to support their position. For instance, they often cite 'our image' plural that God said in Genesis 2. If that has weight, I submit the more than 5,000 times God is referred to in the singular pronoun carries more weight. Thoughts?
So it is basically a thread for you to push what you think, and that’s all. If we do not agree with you, then we must accept the hate and vitriol you push our way?
Face it man, you have not proven one thing,

As I said to your friend, Gen 1 and 2 is but one example of many. If that was the only proof I had you would be correct, I would be foolish, but its not, limited number? Says who.. you?
If you think this all I can say is you do not know us very well, maybe you have not spoken to the right people or those who you have spoke to just knew a few passages,

then again, like you said here. We are not going to change your mind, your already set, we are all stupid unlearned people and you are Gods spokesman.
Whatever man. I was hoping to find some real conversations. But as It with most non trinitarians I have encountered. Just more fluff with no meat

anyway have a good day my friend,
 

Wrangler

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Wrangler

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Whatever man. I was hoping to find some real conversations. But as It with most non trinitarians I have encountered. Just more fluff with no meat

Whatever. There is a thread about Mary's other children. I'm OK with that but know some are adamant she remained forever a virgin. I have no need to keep making the point. Whatever.
 

justbyfaith

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In as much as it would be heretical and blasphemous to state that that the almighty, unquantifiable, indivisible and infinite God, has three separate and autonomous consciousnesses, when in fact He doesn't, but is unified, pure and complete as one.

Distinct; not separate: even according to the major trinitarian creeds.

The fact that the trinity is not in the Bible,

The doctrine of the Trinity is in the Bible.

True Trinity. (posts #1-#6).
 

DNB

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All I need is one verse

but that’s not all I have

once again you will have to much more than this to convince me
No, no ever ever needs just one verse, ever, ever, for any Biblical doctrine. You exposed a great deal of folly in that statement. You expressed how unreasonable that you are, and biased. I don't say this to debase or ridicule, but, to me, this is a typical, and unsound sentiment of all trinitarians. It's called indoctrination.
 
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