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The Case Against the Trinity

Discussion in 'Unorthodox Doctrine Forum' started by Wrangler, Feb 14, 2021.

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  1. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    The Holy Spirit's job is to bring glory to Jesus.....He will rarely even speak of Himself.

    Not because He isn't equal to the Father and the Son; but because it is an aspect of His personality that He does not bring glory to Himself.
     
  2. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Luke 24:38-43 shows Jesus resurrected in a physical body; not as a spirit.

    Now we know that Christ, being human, was composed of spirit and soul and body (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

    So the fact that He was flesh and bones does not mean that He isn't God (because of John 4:24). That is a false argument.

    For Jesus is a Spirit.

    (for 1 Thessalonians 5:23 has been interpreted to say that, as humans, we are a spirit, we have a soul, and we dwell in a body.)

    He is also come in the flesh (1 John 4:1-3, 2 John 1:7).
     
  3. BARNEY BRIGHT

    BARNEY BRIGHT Well-Known Member

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    Justbyfaith your ignorant because you choose to be, that's your choice. 1Corinthians 15 is talking about the resurrection, it's not going to change for you. The Apostle Paul in talking about the resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Corinthians 15:45 lets us know that the last Adam who is Jesus Christ was made a life giving spirit in the context of the Apostle Paul teaching about the resurrection.
     
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  4. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

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    Hello there @justbyfaith,

    Please receive this with the love that accompanies it. I believe God chooses His words with care, and if He says that the Lord Jesus Christ is His only 'Begotten' Son, then that is exactly what He means. There is no other 'Begotten' Son, so this cannot be said of any other. There are many who by believing in His saving grace, have been given the sonship spirit, whereby they can call the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 'Father'. yes: but all are 'in Him'.

    Thank you
    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
  5. jaybird

    jaybird Well-Known Member

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    Where does the bible teach that one?
     
  6. Ronald David Bruno

    Ronald David Bruno Well-Known Member

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    DNB,


    We all have tried to reason with you with scriptures, but you still refute them, deny them or distort them. I just went outside the box a little, approached it a different way - with conjecture. Listen we know in part and see blurry. There are mysteries that will be revealed to us - what we will be like and we will see Him face to face. My last ditch effort is to compile the scriptures in one nice gift for you to study. Refute them all, deny their literal meaning, that's up to you.

    “In the beginning Elohim created heaven and earth”. Gen. 1:1 >> Elohim is a plural form suggesting more than one person.

    “Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; …” Gen. 3:22 >> “ONE OF US? Who is God talking about, Him and the angels? Did God have to confer with them to expel Adam and Eve from the Garden?

    “yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.” 1 Cor. 8:6 >> So all things are from the Father and all things are by the Son. We exist for the Father and exist through the Son. Seems to me Jesus is equal to the Father. Col. 1;16-17 states that Jesus is the CREATOR – put that in your pipe and smoke it!

    “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.” 2 Cor. 13:14 >> We are saved by Grace through faith … correct? Whose Grace? God’s grace. In this scripture, it does not deny that Grace is from God, it just states that it is from Jesus. Fellowship from the Holy Spirit indicates a relationship with a person.

    “For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, “ Col. 2:9 >> This statement confirms Jesus is God, the fullness of God dwells in Him. If you deny or distort this, you have no discernment, and are profoundly stuck in a blind state. Heck you don’t need discernment here, take it literally.

    Here is another verse that supports this concept: "The Word was God and God became flesh! And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.” John 1:14

    “For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders;
    And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.” Is. 9:6 >>
    Here again, Jesus is called Mighty God, Eternal Father and Prince of Peace. This is deep, it is a statement describing the Triune God. Jesus is one with the Father, He is the Prince of Peace and the Holy Spirit is the Wonderful Counselor.

    “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: ‘I am the first and I am the last,
    And there is no God besides Me.” Is. 44:6 >>
    Who is the Redeemer, the King? Who is the first and the last? Jesus

    “Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands; and in the middle of the lampstands I saw one like a son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and girded across His chest with a golden sash. His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire. His feet were like burnished bronze, when it has been made to glow in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters. In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength. When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, and the living One; and I l]"> was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.” Rev. 1:12-18 >> Jesus is the first and the last, the Almighty God. He is the Word, which is the expression of God, everything in the Bible is the expression of God. Having all authority means He is Almighty God. “In Him all things consist (are held together)”. Jesus will return in Judgment against those who deny Him, against those who did not put their faith in Him. Think about that, if Jesus was not God, why does the Bible require us to put our faith in Jesus, if he was like Moses or any other prophet? He says, believe in Me and you will have life. He is the author of life. If He wasn’t, He could not demand us to focus on Him. The focus would only be on the Father, not Him and the Bible would be written quite differently.

    “I and the Father are one.” John 10:30 >> The concept of the Trinity is that three persons are one God. Here we have two. All you have to do is search all scriptures pertaining to the Holy Spirit and you will find that He represents everything that God is and tells us everything that Jesus told us. A perfect unity.

    “Behold, the virgin shall be with child and shall bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which translated means "God with us". ”Matt. 1:23 >> Did you miss this one? Jesus name is called God with us.

    “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,” Matt. 28;19 >> 1, 2, 3 ... easy as do, re, mi … 1, 2, 3, a, b, c, that’s how easy LOVE can be. Maybe you should sing that song: “I want to know what Love is, I want you to show me.” Well, the Bible is trying to. Still having problems? Can’t count, this is first grade math.

    “After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him, and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, ‘This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.’” Matt. 3:16-17 >> Trinity

    “I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.” John 14:16-17 >> The Triune God. Did the Father send the Spirit of Truth to you? Do you know Him?

    “according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.” 1 Pet. 1:2 >> Trinity

    He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.” Col. 1:15-17 >> This states clearly that Jesus is the CREATOR, therefore, He is God. The last phrase is something to ponder. hold togetheror consist means that every atom in the universe is held together by His power!

    “Have this attitude" in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. “ Phil. 2:5-8

    >>
    People still struggle with the concept of Jesus being equal with God/ being God. He did not regard that as something that man would grasp. I know, you still don’t grasp it, but be careful how you struggle, and resist those scriptures in a way that is an act of rebellion, fighting with an obstinate pride, against Christians, calling them fools and saying it is a philosophy from Satan!
     
  7. Ronald Nolette

    Ronald Nolette Well-Known Member

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    And I do not disagree one iota that the Father is greater than Jesus. But I also don't disagree when God made sure JOhn wrote that by Calling God HIs father He made HImself equal to God!

    What you seem to not recognize that the bible refers to position and nature! Positionally the Father is above all. By nature, all three persons of the Godhead are equally divine.

    The nature of God is not triune- that is you simply lying about what the bible teaches. god is one and is expressed in three persons, Father Son and Holy Spirit All co-equal in nature and all co-eternal!

    There is also clear verses that say Jesus would raise HImself from the dead! You limit who god is by trying to understanding the Bible with a natural mind.
     
  8. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

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    Well, I’m sure you know better than Jesus.
     
  9. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

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    Yes, he would do it. Not the same as someone else ACTUALLY doing it.

    I would pick my son up at school when sick but someone else actually did it. Besides, this thread is not to deny there are verses that seem to support the trinity but to make the case on the many verses that go AGAINST.
     
  10. Ronald Nolette

    Ronald Nolette Well-Known Member

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    No just teh same when He put it in HIs Inspired Word!
    We use language very loosely. Jesus did not! Jesus said He had the authority to lay His life down and pick it up!

    You accept at fsace values when Jesus said the Father is greater than I but why do you reject when John declared Jesus said He was equal to God?

    or JOhn 1:1 If Jesus is just a god as the Jw's teach according to teh old Arian heresy, then He is a false god!

    Why is He called Jehovah in corinthians in teh hebrew NT!?
     
  11. JohnDB

    JohnDB Well-Known Member

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    Modalism or something else like pantheism is not the Christian doctrine.

    God is one.

    Baptism in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Three is ONE.

    There was nothing created that wasn't created through Jesus.

    Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is the unforgivable sin.

    Blaspheming the Father is not going to do you any favors either.

    All authority in Heaven and Earth has been given to Jesus.

    So...

    If what I'm believing is wrong...I'm on the side of caution.

    Those that do not want to believe in the deity of any of the THREE...they are playing footsie with eternal damnation. Why do such a thing?
     
  12. jaybird

    jaybird Well-Known Member

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    im not an expert on "isms" but i do know that three gods is not the way Jesus worshiped.

    exctly, "He" is one, never "they" are one. three persons are "they"

    the 12 baptized in the name of Jesus.

    three is three, one is one, they teach you that in grade school.

    Jesus said He never did anything on His own, it was the Father working through Him.

    worshiping three gods is what the canaanites and romans did. why do that?

    so back to the question, where does Jesus, the Father or anyone for that matter say we must! believe Jesus is the Most High for salvation, to be Christian, or to follow Jesus?
    i assume thats what you meant when you refer to "deity" of Jesus. which is actually incorrect, the angel Michael is divine, but that does not make Michael the Most High, just a being in the heavens.

    This is what John says one must believe for eternal life:

    John 20 30-31

    The Purpose of This Book
    30Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

    No mention of the trinity or that we must believe Jesus is the Most High. John was taught by the living Jesus, one of the 12, one of the elders, I think He knows what he is talking about.
     
  13. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Jesus was made a life-giving Spirit when He left His body as a Spirit in Luke 23:46.

    It should be clear that Jesus, in His resurrected body, ate a piece of honeycomb and broiled fish.

    Therefore, Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.

    And your denial of this absolute truth indicates to everyone here that you have the spirit of antichrist along with all those who teach such a doctrine as what you believe (1 John 4:1-3, 2 John 1:7).
     
  14. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    It should be clear that we also have been begotten (see 1 Peter 1:3).

    When Jesus was walking the earth there were no people who were born again by faith in Him...the Holy Spirit was not yet given. Therefore, when Jesus spoke John 3:16, He was indeed the only begotten Son.

    Later, there were other siblings of Christ born to the Father. So, Jesus became the "firstbegotten" (Hebrews 1:6).

    Just as a child in a family is the only child until new siblings to him or her are born into the family. Then his or her title changes to "firstborn"
     
  15. BARNEY BRIGHT

    BARNEY BRIGHT Well-Known Member

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    No he didn't justbyfaith those who believe that way are saying the person doesn't die as long as you believe that way you will be in your sins. The person who is known as the True God's Only Begotten Son was dead for three days you believe that or you don't
     
  16. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    I believe that He was dead and in the grave for three days...I also believe that He rose bodily from the dead.

    You don't?
     
  17. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Can you repeat your post without using a run-on sentence? Thanks.
     
  18. BARNEY BRIGHT

    BARNEY BRIGHT Well-Known Member

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    I believe that Jesus was resurrected a person who has immortality and inherited incorruption and no human has nor ever has had immortality or incorruption. When Jesus was resurrected he wasn't resurrected a perfect human which he was before his sacrifice. Jesus sacrificed his perfect human body. 1Corinthians 15:42- 45 says: So it is with the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised up in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised up in power. It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
     
  19. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Jesus became a life-giving Spirit when His Spirit left His body at the juncture of Luke 23:46.

    The Holy Ghost, released into eternity, is the Spirit of Jesus and is therefore Jesus.

    Otherwise you are denying that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh (see 1 John 4:1-3, 2 John 1:7).

    Jesus Christ is come in the flesh in the Person of the Son.
     
  20. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

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    'Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
    which according to His abundant mercy
    hath begotten us again unto a lively hope
    by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,'

    (1 Peter 1:3)

    Hello @justbyfaith

    The words here in 1 Peter 1:3, are 'begotten us again'. Yes, Peter's hearers had been born again by the Spirit of God into a living hope, 'by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead'.

    * The Lord Jesus Christ was God's only begotten son (in the flesh), this is something that cannot be said concerning anyone else. For God has not Fathered a child naturally, apart from the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. That is a fact that was and remains true.

    * We are never identified with His physical birth, in which He was physically begotten of God.

    Thank you
    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2021
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