No authority!

[Brakelite]

Isn’t keeping holy the sabbath a commandment? Is a commandment the same as a tradition??? That analogy makes no sense. Do you have another so I can better understand what you have been taught?

Jesus entered the synagogues and observed Sabbath according to their custom... Tradition.
KJV Luke 4:16
16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

Paul and the other apostles did the same.

What the Jews wrongly accused Paul of, they should have waited a few decades and looked at Rome and Alexandria... Then they would have had something real to accuse people of.
KJV Acts 6:14
14 For we have heard him say, that this Jesus of Nazareth shall destroy this place, and shall change the customs which Moses delivered us.

The customs were delivered to the Jews, and this to the church, through the writings of Moses and the prophets. Again... To the law and to the testimony.

 

[Brakelite]

There are sinful individuals in EVERY ecclesial community - so why would you assume that they can ONLY be found in the Catholic Church?

The Church didn't commit bribes, murders, scandals, etc. Sinful individuals WITHIN the Church did - and they've been around since Jesus chose Judas. Why on earth would you think that the Christ's Church would NOT contain sinful individuals when Scripture WARNS of this (Matt. 7:15-23, Rom. 16:17-18, 2 Cor. 11:13-15).

Your lack of faith is pathetic . . .

Your lack of honesty is pathetic. Those so called few sinners led your church into policies that resulted in the decimation of entire communities and cultures. I'm a descendant of huguenot Christians who were massacred in France, the survivors fleeing to Britain and elsewhere, while one of your "sinful" Popes celebrated, had the bells ringing in all the Roman churches, and even struck a medal in honor of this great "Catholic victory" over the protestant heretics. Just a few sinners in the church... Like I said, is inexplicable the lengths you go to defend the indefensible.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Since you KNOW that The Church is not the pillar and foundation of truth then which church is?

So your theory is that since some of the men of The Church, or any Protestant church, commit sins that is a clear indication that their doctrine is false? Using your theory that means ALL churches doctrines are false doctrines. Your theory needs some work.

All church organisations are man-founded and designed. The early church was not an organisation as such. Believers gathered together for fellowship and learning. The only processes put in place was a group of elders to ensure the church was run decently and in order, and a group of deacons to handle the physical needs of the members. There were no hierarchy structures, nor were there separate denominations. The churches were separated only by regions, such as the church at Corinth, at Ephesus, at Philippi, etc. Each church was managed by its own elders. Only one instance of a bishop is in the New Testament, and that was Timothy who oversaw a group of churches in the Ephesus region.

It was only when Constantine adopted Christianity as the state religion of the Roman Empire, that pagan temples were closed and converted into purpose-built Christian churches. As the authority of regional Bishops took over the autonomy of the church elders, it became more of an organisation, and when the Bishop of Rom took over the overall oversight of all the churches, then it became the man-designed RCC. At that stage, the Holy Spirit departed from the church, along with His gifts and ministries, and the ministry of the church was taken over by church priests, the ruling function of elders was downgraded, and the regional bishops answered to the Pope in terms of church doctrine and practice. In this way, the ministry of the Holy Spirit became redundant and was replaced by the authority of the Pope, represented by regional bishops.

Once the Holy Spirit was pushed out of the established church, it stopped being the true church, and became a denomination that brutally suppressed any other group who tried to worship God outside of the RCC denomination.

But the true church continued as the genuine born-again believers who refused to bow the knee to the paganised pope and refused to kiss his ring to show any authority over them.

The same exists today. The different denominations are just man-made shells that have some in them who are part of the true church who will not bow their knee to man's religious hierarchies, Catholic or Protestant. Only God knows who are the members of the true church. The Scripture says that the foundation of God stands sure: God knows who are truly His. We will find out who are the true believers when they are separated from the religious hypocrites when Jesus comes again.

 

[Paul Christensen]

There are many who think because they are included on the roll of a particular church whether it be RCC or Protestant, that they will get to heaven. But if people are trusting their church under the impression that they belong to the "true" church, then as far as God is concerned their name would be better off on a sausage roll for the good that it will do them on the day of judgment.

 

[justbyfaith]

Why on earth would you think that the Christ's Church would NOT contain sinful individuals when Scripture WARNS of this (Matt. 7:15-23, Rom. 16:17-18, 2 Cor. 11:13-15).

Your lack of faith is pathetic . . .

You are obviously one of those sinful individuals that the holy scriptures warn us about...as evidenced by your use of the word "pathetic."

Cynicism at its worst.

Hmmmm.....so no one knows the true number but you KNOW that the number I presented is not right.....I thought no one knows? But you know I’m wrong.....You are confusing me....

How do we fulfill Matthew 18:17 if The Church is invisible? What man taught you that The Church is invisible?

In Matthew 7:13-14 we find Jesus' teaching that there are few that find the true way into the kingdom...so your estimation of 1 billion, I would say, is off-kilter, because that is a number that represents many...

Only God knows who are the members of the true church. The Scripture says that the foundation of God stands sure: God knows who are truly His.

.
.
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Hmmmm.......since YOU have been taught by the Spirit of God then there is no need for Christians to go to anyone but YOU for the truth. Right?

They ought not to go to any man...but to the holy scriptures and the Holy Spirit of the Lord to lead them into all truth in the holy scriptures.

Well, according to you YOU have been “taught by the Spirit of God”. And you are a human being...are you not? So on one hand you say my problem is that I want to get my doctrine from human beings but on the other hand you, a human being, are telling me that you have been taught by the Holy Spirit. If YOU have been taught by the Holy Spirit wouldn’t I be safe to go to YOU for my doctrine??

I’m getting dizzy....

I’m willing to bet if I told you that I have been taught by the Holy Spirit and what I was taught was different then what you were taught you would tell me I am wrong...Wouldn’t you?

If anyone is taught by the Holy Ghost, they will not have any beliefs that are contrary to holy scripture. So, if you claimed to be taught by the Holy Spirit but had a belief that is refuted by the scriptures, I would say that you were off-base because of the fact that your belief is contradicted by the holy scriptures.

I would not encourage you to come to me for your doctrine essentially; but I would encourage you to be a Berean as it comes to what any teacher might try to teach you (see Acts of the Apostles 17:10-11). Let the Holy Ghost be your primary teacher, through the holy scriptures. I believe that you can be edified through my teachings in particular; but if anything that I teach is contrary to the holy scriptures, I would encourage you to disregard that teaching in favour of what the Holy Spirit teaches you on that particular subject, through the holy scriptures.

 

[marksman]

outside the ark of Noah all drowned!
Outside the ark of salvation the new covenant church all drown eternally

The church had no influence on salvation. It came about because of Calvary and those who were born again became the church...afterward.

 

[theefaith]

The church had no influence on salvation. It came about because of Calvary and those who were born again became the church...afterward.

the was founded first dan 2:44 Matt 16:18

 

[Marymog]

In Matthew 7:13-14 we find Jesus' teaching that there are few that find the true way into the kingdom...so your estimation of 1 billion, I would say, is off-kilter, because that is a number that represents many....

A man taught you that the Church is invisible. How do we fulfill Matthew 18:17 if The Church is invisible?

 

[theefaith]

A man taught you that the Church is invisible. How do we fulfill Matthew 18:17 if The Church is invisible?

both visible and spiritual aspects
But it is a copreal body physical and visible
Matt 5:14
Ye (the apostles/ the church) are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
(There is only one church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles and their successors!) Jn 10:16

 

[Wrangler]

doctrine is revealed by God
In the fullness thru Christ and His church
Matt 28:19 Jn 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Eph 4:5 one faith Jude 1:3

Hmmm. I think there is a difference between doctrine and faith.

We believe in God. We have faith in Jesus. That is, our faith is in a person or a being, if you prefer. This is the Good News.

The Good News is God has made a pathway for our salvation through his son. The Good News is our salvation does not depend on living out any doctrine. And I believe sincere people can have different doctrine. Today's devotional reading guides me.


John (to Jesus): 38 Master, we saw another man casting out unclean spirits in Your name, but he was not one of our group. So we told him to stop what he was doing.

Jesus: 39 You shouldn’t have said that. Anyone using My name to do a miracle cannot turn quickly to speak evil of Me. 40 Anyone who isn’t against us is for us.
Mark 9:38-40 (Voice)

50 Salt is a good thing; but if it has lost its zest, how can it be seasoned again? You should have salt within yourselves and peace with one another.
Mark 9:50

 

[Marymog]

Hmmm. I think there is a difference between doctrine and faith.

We believe in God. We have faith in Jesus. That is, our faith is in a person or a being, if you prefer. This is the Good News.

The Good News is God has made a pathway for our salvation through his son. The Good News is our salvation does not depend on living out any doctrine. And I believe sincere people can have different doctrine. Today's devotional reading guides me.


John (to Jesus): 38 Master, we saw another man casting out unclean spirits in Your name, but he was not one of our group. So we told him to stop what he was doing.

Jesus: 39 You shouldn’t have said that. Anyone using My name to do a miracle cannot turn quickly to speak evil of Me. 40 Anyone who isn’t against us is for us.
Mark 9:38-40 (Voice)

50 Salt is a good thing; but if it has lost its zest, how can it be seasoned again? You should have salt within yourselves and peace with one another.
Mark 9:50

Hey Wrangler,

Your “salvation does not depend on living out any doctrine” teaching is not in line with scripture. Today's devotional reading guides me:

In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following.

If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness,
he is proud, knowing nothing. He is sick concerning doubts and arguments, from which comes envy, strife, evil speakings, evil suspicions,

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,

holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.

But as for you, speak the things which are fitting for sound doctrine.

If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself

Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.

Bible study Mary

 

[Jim B]

A man taught you that the Church is invisible. How do we fulfill Matthew 18:17 if The Church is invisible?

The church is not a building, it is a group of Christian people. It is impossible to know if someone is a part of Christ's body just by looking at them; they are spiritually discerned. That is an invisible quality, although we are supposed to be a light set on a lampstand, giving spiritual "light" to the world (non-Christians).

 

[Wrangler]

If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ

IMO, there is extreme arrogance that you are the only arbiter and final judge on just how to apply the words and teachings of Christ.

We live by the light we were given and ought to have grace on such differences - not assert superiority.

 

[Marymog]

The church is not a building, it is a group of Christian people. It is impossible to know if someone is a part of Christ's body just by looking at them; they are spiritually discerned. That is an invisible quality, although we are supposed to be a light set on a lampstand, giving spiritual "light" to the world (non-Christians).

hey Jim,

Ok.....so which group of Christian people do we go to to fulfill Matthew 18:17?

 

[Marymog]

IMO, there is extreme arrogance that you are the only arbiter and final judge on just how to apply the words and teachings of Christ.

Scripture speaks of sound doctrine and false teachers. Who has the authority to point out false teachings and be the “only arbiter and final judge” on sound doctrine?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Your lack of honesty is pathetic. Those so called few sinners led your church into policies that resulted in the decimation of entire communities and cultures. I'm a descendant of huguenot Christians who were massacred in France, the survivors fleeing to Britain and elsewhere, while one of your "sinful" Popes celebrated, had the bells ringing in all the Roman churches, and even struck a medal in honor of this great "Catholic victory" over the protestant heretics. Just a few sinners in the church... Like I said, is inexplicable the lengths you go to defend the indefensible.

And YOUR understanding of Christ's Church is deplorable.

His Church is NOT measurde by the sins of certain individuals. If it WAS - then Jesus Christ was a failure for recruiting a devil (John 6:70) to be one of the first leaders of His Church. Are YOU prepared to accuse HIM of that?
As I stated before - the Word of God not only WARNS of these types of individuals - it GUARANTEES that they will come, so it shouldn't surpeise ANYBODY who knows the Gospel. Apparently YOU don't.

Show me a SINGLE Christian group out there that is comprised of completely sinless people - THEN we'll talk . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

You are obviously one of those sinful individuals that the holy scriptures warn us about...as evidenced by your use of the word "pathetic."

Where does the Bible forbid me from using this word??

It's not a profanity - and I didn't refer to him as a "fool".
I said his lack of faith is pathetic - as is YOUR understanding of Scripture.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

no Jesus obtained by his death and shedding his blood the remission of sin but that has to be applied to souls in baptism and the sacraments

NO it has to be applied by faith if one wishes to obey God as the Scriptures declare!

 

[Brakelite]

And YOUR understanding of Christ's Church is deplorable.

His Church is NOT measurde by the sins of certain individuals. If it WAS - then Jesus Christ was a failure for recruiting a devil (John 6:70) to be one of the first leaders of His Church. Are YOU prepared to accuse HIM of that?
As I stated before - the Word of God not only WARNS of these types of individuals - it GUARANTEES that they will come, so it shouldn't surpeise ANYBODY who knows the Gospel. Apparently YOU don't.

Show me a SINGLE Christian group out there that is comprised of completely sinless people - THEN we'll talk . . .

You still aren't getting it. I'm not talking about individuals here and there who gave the church a bad rep. I'm talking about the out-workings of church policy developed from the heretical beliefs of those individuals. They were more than just sinners. They developed policy and dogmas which resulted in the entire corporate body becoming an institution that SCRIPTURE identified as Antichrist.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You still aren't getting it. I'm not talking about individuals here and there who have the church a bad rep.

Then what ARE you talking about??
Individuals are those that INCLUDE leaders - like Judas.

If you are trying to say that the ENTIRE Church is wicked because there have been wicked men within the Church's history - then you DON'T know the Gospel.