No authority!

[Marymog]

Those who truly do have the Holy Spirit will be guided into all truth (John 16:13).

This is not to say that all of them in the present moment have 100% of the truth. They may still be learning....

Hi JBF,

So lets put your theory to the test. If, as you have been taught by other men, the Spirit will guide those that have the Holy Spirit into all truth then why are there so many ‘truths’ from one passage of Scripture? I get your theory. Your theory is that only those that have the Holy Spirit guiding them will have the truth. Sooooo WHO determines which man has been guided by the Spirit into the truth? WHO decides who is still learning and who has already learned? Is there a committee you go to? Help me out here....

Maybe that passage doesn’t mean what you have been taught? Look at vs 12 and see how that changes everything. Vs 12 puts vs 13 in context. He was speaking about and ONLY to the people in front of him!

 

[Marymog]

I see that you are pretty well convinced that the Roman church is the only true church descended from Peter and the Apostles, and that the Pope is the true representative of Christ (replacing the indwelling Holy Spirit by the way).

I will ignore that the Vatican has more male and female prostitutes than all the other city red lights put together, and homosexual orgies are common place. By the way, it was not Protestants who said those things, it was Vatican insiders seeking reforms who said it. They also said that Pope John Paul 1 was murdered and Pope Benedict given an offer he couldn't refuse and forced to resign because both wanted to clean the Vatican out of the adultery, fornication and homosexuality that was corrupting it.

Martin Luther, while still a faithful monk, went on a pilgrimage to Rome to increase his spirituality, but was shocked, disappointed and disillusioned when he witnessed the total corruption that he saw. Instead of seeing a shining light of true Christian faith and holiness, all he saw was corruption and uncleanness and that put the first spark of reformation in his heart. He didn't want to leave the Roman church, but they threw him out because he wanted to clean it up, and they sought to kill him because he wouldn't shut up about the filth that he saw in the top echelons of Roman church hierarchy.

So if you want to believe in a church like that, you are welcome to it!

Hi Paul C.,

Well, we agree on something. The Church did need some cleaning up do to the corruption of the men that were running it. Leaders of churches, Protestant and Catholic, sin and have done the things you speak of. Sooooo lets not ignore the sins of your Protestant church leaders.

As far as doctrine goes, which is what our discussion is about instead of the rabbit trail you are TRYING to go down, do you adhere to Martin Luthers teachings?

PS....I love your murder conspiracy theory....I hadn’t heard that one before.

 

[theefaith]

No church has been founded on Peter. The true church, made up of all those who have received Christ as Saviour, is founded on the Rock Jesus Christ. Christ referred to Peter as a stone, but it was on the Rock of Himself as the Christ, the Son of the Living God, that is the foundation of the true Christian church.

The RCC is founded on arrogant, adulterous, political popes who dictated how people should worship God for 1000 years until godly people started rightfully rebelling against them and preached the true gospel of Christ.

Explain Jn 20:21-23 please


Fathers have care of their children, spiritual fathers care for our souls!

Pope, papa, father, yes spiritual father!

Isa 22 father

Christ is the head of the church!
Peter is appointed by Christ as the head of the church on earth!
Supreme pastor and teacher of the faithful!

Matt 10:2
First apostle Peter:

Matt 17:27
Jesus and Peter are one:
Jesus even works a miracle to make this point. 27 Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.

Mt 16:18 Peter received the keys of the kingdom: (jurisdictional authority of the universal church) and the power to bind and loose:

Lk 22:32
Peter commanded to confirm his breathren:

Lk 22:32
Jesus prays for Peter:

Jn 21:17
Peter commanded to Feed my sheep:

Matt 10:2
Peter is the prince of the apostles, head of the universal church on earth!

Jn 20:21-23
Peter and the apostles receive the Holy Spirit and the power to forgive sins:

Acts 1:15 1:17 1:26
Peter declares Judas office of apostle valid and vacant and chooses a successor:

Acts 2:14
Peter preaches the first sermon on Pentecost:

Acts 2:38
Peter requires baptism as the outward sign and initiation into the new covenant!

Acts 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,

Acts 5 authority of the apostles verified by them being stricken dead by God verifying Matt 16:18 matt 18:18 whatsoever you bind on earth is bound in heaven and the apostles have the light of the Holy Spirit!


1 Tim 1 Paul is Timothy’s spiritual father.
1 Jn 2:1 little children are adult Christians, John is their spiritual father.

Apostles have Care for our souls
(Acts 20:28 Jn 21:17 Heb 13:17)

———

The successors of Moses having kingdom authority of the keys and the power to bind and loose Mt 23 was taken from them Mt 21:43 and given to Peter, the apostles, and their successors: Mt 16:18 Mt 18:18 and Jesus says this power and authority is to be obeyed!

Rom 13:2
Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
(If it applies to civil authority, how much more to religious authority)

Mt 28:18-20
all authority is given to Peter, the apostles, and their successors requiring obedience, rom 1:5 obedience to the faith!
And Jesus say to Peter, the apostles, and their successors: behold I am with you even until the end of the world!!!
So the apostles have to remain until the end!

Lk 10:16 He who hears you hears me...
(The apostles and their successors)

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Without a central authority there can be no unity of the spirit, no obedience to the faith!
God - Christ - Peter - the apostles - the apostles successors - the people

Hierarchy is the nature of authority!

God always establishes order in obedience to hierarchical authority!

The angelic order!
The church order!
The family order!
The civil order!

All require obedience to hierarchical authority!

The church is not a democracy but a kingdom!

They are not God, not the king, not the founder!
But equal with Christ yes!
As far as roles go, Jesus is the head of the church, Peter is the head of the church on earth Mt 16:18 and leader of the apostles Mt 10:2 administers of the kingdom in the absence of the king. Acts 1:9 Jn 21:17 and Peter, the apostles and their successors are sent in the same way as Jesus!

Jn 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
They are God breathed!

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

 

[theefaith]

And if you knew gods Word instead of mens doctrine, you would know that that remission or retention is not toward heaven, but on earth Rom. 6:23




sorry but that is yor Roman teaching clouding your mind! Jesus forgave all sins by the blood He shed on the Cross. If a person has placed theoir trust in the death and REsurrection of Jesus , their sins are all forgiven before god the Father Judicially. Experientially, the church may call for one to experience the consequence of their sin. Like telling one who has committed murder, thatr the sin is forgiven, but turning them into teh police to face the consequence of their sin! That is what John 20:21 is about, not about being forgiven from a heavenly perspective.

no Jesus obtained by his death and shedding his blood the remission of sin but that has to be applied to souls in baptism and the sacraments

 

[theefaith]

Otherwise all men are forgiven and saved

 

[justbyfaith]

Really? Please enlighten me. What is that number? What criteria did you use to come up with that number?

No one knows the true number, the true church is invisible; only God and any individual knows whether that individual is saved or not.

The reason why I think that it is very likely less than a billion is because of what it says in Matthew 7:13-14.

If, as you have been taught by other men,

No, I have been taught this by the Spirit of God.

Sooooo WHO determines which man has been guided by the Spirit into the truth?

Probably the Holy Spirit.

WHO decides who is still learning and who has already learned? Is there a committee you go to? Help me out here....

I think that your main problem is that you are still wanting to get your doctrine from human beings rather than being willing to get it from the Holy Spirit as He reveals the truth to you in the holy scriptures.

 

[Brakelite]

I see that you are pretty well convinced that the Roman church is the only true church descended from Peter and the Apostles, and that the Pope is the true representative of Christ (replacing the indwelling Holy Spirit by the way).

I will ignore that the Vatican has more male and female prostitutes than all the other city red lights put together, and homosexual orgies are common place. By the way, it was not Protestants who said those things, it was Vatican insiders seeking reforms who said it. They also said that Pope John Paul 1 was murdered and Pope Benedict given an offer he couldn't refuse and forced to resign because both wanted to clean the Vatican out of the adultery, fornication and homosexuality that was corrupting it.

Martin Luther, while still a faithful monk, went on a pilgrimage to Rome to increase his spirituality, but was shocked, disappointed and disillusioned when he witnessed the total corruption that he saw. Instead of seeing a shining light of true Christian faith and holiness, all he saw was corruption and uncleanness and that put the first spark of reformation in his heart. He didn't want to leave the Roman church, but they threw him out because he wanted to clean it up, and they sought to kill him because he wouldn't shut up about the filth that he saw in the top echelons of Roman church hierarchy.

So if you want to believe in a church like that, you are welcome to it!

The inexplicable idea about all this is that @Marymog , @BreadOfLife @Illuminator etc al not only believe this is the one true church and the pillar and foundation of truth, but they actively with aforethought and determination defend this institution against them very charges too have elucidated so clearly above.
One could add to the above by detailing the murders, the bribes, the blackmails and scandals that surrounds the operations of the most infamous of money laundering institutions, the Vatican bank. Receiving tithe money from the mafia and South American drug cartels along the way.

 

[Brakelite]

Soooo you don’t like the passage from scripture that says hold fast to the traditions you were taught.

I will hold fast to those traditions that are in harmony with scripture.
KJV Isaiah 8:20
20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Hi Paul C.,

Well, we agree on something. The Church did need some cleaning up do to the corruption of the men that were running it. Leaders of churches, Protestant and Catholic, sin and have done the things you speak of. Sooooo lets not ignore the sins of your Protestant church leaders.

As far as doctrine goes, which is what our discussion is about instead of the rabbit trail you are TRYING to go down, do you adhere to Martin Luthers teachings?

PS....I love your murder conspiracy theory....I hadn’t heard that one before.

Well, my church has six old ladies and 2 gentlemen, including me. So there is very little corruption there!

All I have of Martin Luther is his commentary on Galatians. I have a whole bookcase full of different commentators that I read from time to time. As a matter of interest when I studied pastoral care as part of a pastoral care paper for a theological qualification, I read the work of a couple of RCC pastoral psychologists. I found them very valuable, and in many ways superior in their expertise in pastoral care. That is one thing that Catholic priest excel at.

Yes, there are different conspiracy theories about what happened to Pope John Paul I. No one really knows, and those who do know are not telling!

 

[Paul Christensen]

Explain Jn 20:21-23 please


Fathers have care of their children, spiritual fathers care for our souls!

Pope, papa, father, yes spiritual father!

Isa 22 father

Christ is the head of the church!
Peter is appointed by Christ as the head of the church on earth!
Supreme pastor and teacher of the faithful!

Matt 10:2
First apostle Peter:

Matt 17:27
Jesus and Peter are one:
Jesus even works a miracle to make this point. 27 Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.

Mt 16:18 Peter received the keys of the kingdom: (jurisdictional authority of the universal church) and the power to bind and loose:

Lk 22:32
Peter commanded to confirm his breathren:

Lk 22:32
Jesus prays for Peter:

Jn 21:17
Peter commanded to Feed my sheep:

Matt 10:2
Peter is the prince of the apostles, head of the universal church on earth!

Jn 20:21-23
Peter and the apostles receive the Holy Spirit and the power to forgive sins:

Acts 1:15 1:17 1:26
Peter declares Judas office of apostle valid and vacant and chooses a successor:

Acts 2:14
Peter preaches the first sermon on Pentecost:

Acts 2:38
Peter requires baptism as the outward sign and initiation into the new covenant!

Acts 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,

Acts 5 authority of the apostles verified by them being stricken dead by God verifying Matt 16:18 matt 18:18 whatsoever you bind on earth is bound in heaven and the apostles have the light of the Holy Spirit!


1 Tim 1 Paul is Timothy’s spiritual father.
1 Jn 2:1 little children are adult Christians, John is their spiritual father.

Apostles have Care for our souls
(Acts 20:28 Jn 21:17 Heb 13:17)

———

The successors of Moses having kingdom authority of the keys and the power to bind and loose Mt 23 was taken from them Mt 21:43 and given to Peter, the apostles, and their successors: Mt 16:18 Mt 18:18 and Jesus says this power and authority is to be obeyed!

Rom 13:2
Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
(If it applies to civil authority, how much more to religious authority)

Mt 28:18-20
all authority is given to Peter, the apostles, and their successors requiring obedience, rom 1:5 obedience to the faith!
And Jesus say to Peter, the apostles, and their successors: behold I am with you even until the end of the world!!!
So the apostles have to remain until the end!

Lk 10:16 He who hears you hears me...
(The apostles and their successors)

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Without a central authority there can be no unity of the spirit, no obedience to the faith!
God - Christ - Peter - the apostles - the apostles successors - the people

Hierarchy is the nature of authority!

God always establishes order in obedience to hierarchical authority!

The angelic order!
The church order!
The family order!
The civil order!

All require obedience to hierarchical authority!

The church is not a democracy but a kingdom!

They are not God, not the king, not the founder!
But equal with Christ yes!
As far as roles go, Jesus is the head of the church, Peter is the head of the church on earth Mt 16:18 and leader of the apostles Mt 10:2 administers of the kingdom in the absence of the king. Acts 1:9 Jn 21:17 and Peter, the apostles and their successors are sent in the same way as Jesus!

Jn 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
They are God breathed!

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

You could use all that in your sermon next time you are set to preach at church!

 

[BreadOfLife]

The inexplicable idea about all this is that @Marymog , @BreadOfLife @Illuminator etc al not only believe this is the one true church and the pillar and foundation of truth, but they actively with aforethought and determination defend this institution against them very charges too have elucidated so clearly above.
One could add to the above by detailing the murders, the bribes, the blackmails and scandals that surrounds the operations of the most infamous of money laundering institutions, the Vatican bank. Receiving tithe money from the mafia and South American drug cartels along the way.

There are sinful individuals in EVERY ecclesial community - so why would you assume that they can ONLY be found in the Catholic Church?

The Church didn't commit bribes, murders, scandals, etc. Sinful individuals WITHIN the Church did - and they've been around since Jesus chose Judas. Why on earth would you think that the Christ's Church would NOT contain sinful individuals when Scripture WARNS of this (Matt. 7:15-23, Rom. 16:17-18, 2 Cor. 11:13-15).

Your lack of faith is pathetic . . .

 

[Marymog]

I will hold fast to those traditions that are in harmony with scripture.
KJV Isaiah 8:20
20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Good idea. What traditions are in harmony with Scripture?

 

[Marymog]

The inexplicable idea about all this is that @Marymog , @BreadOfLife @Illuminator etc al not only believe this is the one true church and the pillar and foundation of truth, but they actively with aforethought and determination defend this institution against them very charges too have elucidated so clearly above.
One could add to the above by detailing the murders, the bribes, the blackmails and scandals that surrounds the operations of the most infamous of money laundering institutions, the Vatican bank. Receiving tithe money from the mafia and South American drug cartels along the way.

Since you KNOW that The Church is not the pillar and foundation of truth then which church is?

So your theory is that since some of the men of The Church, or any Protestant church, commit sins that is a clear indication that their doctrine is false? Using your theory that means ALL churches doctrines are false doctrines. Your theory needs some work.

 

[Marymog]

No one knows the true number; the true church is invisible; only God and any individual knows whether that individual is saved or not.

The reason why I think that it is very likely less than a billion is because of what it says in Matthew 7:13-14......

Hmmmm.....so no one knows the true number but you KNOW that the number I presented is not right.....I thought no one knows? But you know I’m wrong.....You are confusing me....

How do we fulfill Matthew 18:17 if The Church is invisible? What man taught you that The Church is invisible?

 

[Brakelite]

Good idea. What traditions are in harmony with Scripture?

Meeting together on Sabbath.

 

[Marymog]

No, I have been taught this by the Spirit of God.

Hmmmm.......since YOU have been taught by the Spirit of God then there is no need for Christians to go to anyone but YOU for the truth. Right?

 

[Marymog]

Probably the Holy Spirit.

That’s a circular defense of your theory which means you are unable to defend your theory.

I’m getting dizzy with your circular arguments....

 

[Marymog]

I think that your main problem is that you are still wanting to get your doctrine from human beings rather than being willing to get it from the Holy Spirit as He reveals the truth to you in the holy scriptures.

Well, according to you YOU have been “taught by the Spirit of God”. And you are a human being...are you not? So on one hand you say my problem is that I want to get my doctrine from human beings but on the other hand you, a human being, are telling me that you have been taught by the Holy Spirit. If YOU have been taught by the Holy Spirit wouldn’t I be safe to go to YOU for my doctrine??

I’m getting dizzy....

I’m willing to bet if I told you that I have been taught by the Holy Spirit and what I was taught was different then what you were taught you would tell me I am wrong...Wouldn’t you?

 

[Marymog]

Meeting together on Sabbath.

Isn’t keeping holy the sabbath a commandment? Is a commandment the same as a tradition??? That analogy makes no sense. Do you have another so I can better understand what you have been taught?

 

[Brakelite]

Since you KNOW that The Church is not the pillar and foundation of truth then which church is?

So your theory is that since some of the men of The Church, or any Protestant church, commit sins that is a clear indication that their doctrine is false? Using your theory that means ALL churches doctrines are false doctrines. Your theory needs some work.

What I KNOW is that over a period of time, your church introduced traditions and doctrines that are derived from pagan sources. The syncretistic nature of Catholicism throughout it's history was evidenced by the adoption of such things.
To the law and to the testimony... Otherwise no light. Remember that? NO LIGHT IN THEM. That is very clear. Your church does not have the authority to make void the word of God. But it did indeed attempt to do so, despite the protests of many throughout the last 1700 years or so. The result of this syncretism was the falling away that Paul warned of. The great apostasy of a people who divorced themselves from Christ by marrying another (Kings of the earth) , and the resulting evil behavior of so many of it's leaders which led by example and taught many of their followers to do the same. This is not a theory... Certainly not mine. These things have been arrested to throughout history. It was a common fault of ancient Israel, and it continued with papal Rome.