Calvinism vs. Arminianism

[Renniks]

The logical extant to your belief/faith about the "all" and "no one" in 2 Corinthians 5:13-16 leads to

1. universalism, that is, salvation including all people all over the earth without exception,

Again more nonsense. The extent of the atonement is to everyone who ever lived, yes. But it is only applied to those who believe. To offer a gift to all doesn't require that all receive it. It's not complicated.

 

[Kermos]

The verse doesn't say we can not leave God, only that no exterior force can snatch us from him. Giving the gift of life isn't forcing one to remain. I would be a jailer instead of a husband if I used force to keep my wife with me. God is a lover not a rapist.

A lover secures his love. Your lack of scripture in your post clearly shows your unscriptural claim.

Lord Jesus says "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand" (John 10:27-30).

This post about where your belief/faith leads remains accurate.

 

[Kermos]

Again more nonsense. The extent of the atonement is to everyone who ever lived, yes. But it is only applied to those who believe. To offer a gift to all doesn't require that all receive it. It's not complicated.

Again, you lack scripture in your post because it's all your interpretation, and Scripture says interpretation is not up to man (2 Peter 1:20-21).

This post about that Biblically indicates your belief/faith leads universalism, contextual destruction, and denial of Christ remains accurate.

 

[Kermos]

Then they asked him, ??What must we do to do the works God requires???

29 Jesus answered, ??The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.??

He's telling them what they must do to be saved. He's not saying God does it all. That's backwards.

No, you are dead wrong, Lord Jesus says the work of God is that a person believes in Jesus whom the Father has sent (John 6:29), so the belief/faith is assigned to God.

You wrote deceptively.

This post about that Biblically indicates your belief/faith leads universalism, contextual destruction, and denial of Christ remains accurate.

 

[Kermos]

Total hogwash!
God believes on himself to save us? How do people come up with such nonsense?

Acts 16:30-31 ??Sirs, what must I do to be saved??? So they said, ??Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.?? Acts 4:12 ??Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Here, you blasphemously call Jesus' words hogwash.

As God had me explain to you in the post to which you replied, Jesus says God's work is belief/faith in a person that the Father has sent Jesus (John 6:29).

 

[Kermos]

I'm going by what scripture says. You are perverting scripture.

Your interpretation of scripture is wrong (2 Peter 1:20-21), and you are perverting scripture as has been proven out in these posts.

 

[Renniks]

A lover secures his love. Your lack of scripture in your post clearly shows your unscriptural claim.

Lord Jesus says "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand" (John 10:27-30).

This post about where your belief/faith leads remains accurate.

Let me ask a question before I continue. If God is just picking some people for salvation, why is this important to tell people? Why would it even matter? I'm genuinely curious why calvinists are so passionate about sharing what would be terrible news if true?
Yeah ,John 10 also defines who the sheep are.
9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture.
The sheep are simply those who enter through Christ. Now, ask yourself why Jesus was telling the Pharisees this? Again, why would it matter if these Pharisees were incapable of being saved? I don't go out and berate our goats for not being sheep. The reason Jesus was telling them was to wake them up to give them the opportunity to become sheep instead of goats!

 

[Kermos]

The whole world does lie in the evil one. He's the prince of this world. We have to do something to come out of the world.

You are evading the point. If you say "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 means every person everywhere can choose salvation (by the way there is nothing therein that states a person can choose God), then your interpretation has the children of God lying in the evil one 1 John 5:19.

And not for ours only - It is not for us apostles that he has died, nor exclusively for the Jewish people, but ???????? ?????????? ?????? ????????????, for the whole world, Gentiles as well as Jews, all the descendants of Adam. The apostle does not say that he died for any select part of the inhabitants of the earth, or for some out of every nation, tribe, or kindred; but for All Mankind; and the attempt to limit this is a violent outrage against God and his word.

As for 1 John 5:19: it's ironic that you bring this up because calvinist use it to try and prove total depravity. John is saying the world lies in wickedness. It is covered in wickedness. This point would be identical to what John wrote earlier in his letter, that everyone is a sinner (1 John 1:8-10). That's true of us all.. however:
the NIV, which is heavily influence by Calvinistic scholars, chose the word ??control.?? This is the strongest of the possible words that could have been used here, as it implies that Satan is in complete control of this world and therefore, unregenerate unbelievers have no ability to understand, respond, or believe the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
The NKJV, however, uses the much more ambiguous word ??sway.
Even if we say that the verse is properly translated as Calvinistic theology requires, and we allow John to be saying that the ??whole world is under the control of the evil one,?? this does not mean that the whole world is unable to believe in Jesus for eternal life. Earlier in his letter, John has written about the ??whole world?? and has stated that Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2).

Even if the whole world lies under the control of the wicked one, Jesus has done what is necessary to liberate the whole world from the evil one so that they can respond to the gospel and believe in Jesus for eternal life (cf. 1 John 5:7-13).

You are still evading the point. Since you say "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 means every person everywhere can choose salvation, then your interpretation has "the whole world" containing the children of God lying in the evil one 1 John 5:19.

This post about that Biblically indicates your belief/faith leads universalism, contextual destruction, and denial of Christ remains accurate.

 

[Kermos]

Let me ask a question before I continue. If God is just picking some people for salvation, why is this important to tell people? Why would it even matter? I'm genuinely curious why calvinists are so passionate about sharing what would be terrible news if true?
Yeah ,John 10 also defines who the sheep are.
9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture.
The sheep are simply those who enter through Christ. Now, ask yourself why Jesus was telling the Pharisees this? Again, why would it matter if these Pharisees were incapable of being saved? I don't go out and berate our goats for not being sheep. The reason Jesus was telling them was to wake them up to give them the opportunity to become sheep instead of goats!

Lord Jesus commands "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:18-20), and in loving friendship, we followers of the way bear fruit (John 15:15-16).

 

[Renniks]

No, you are dead wrong, Lord Jesus says the work of God is that a person believes in Jesus whom the Father has sent (John 6:29), so the belief/faith is assigned to God.

You wrote deceptively.

This post about that Biblically indicates your belief/faith leads universalism, contextual destruction, and denial of Christ remains accurate.

You are the one who turned Jesus' words into nonsense.

They were looking for a work to perform, and Jesus told them that if they are seeking to do a work, then do the works of faith by believing in Him. So this was something that Jesus was encouraging them to do, and was speaking in the language of terms that they identified with. So if calling upon the name of the Lord in faith is a work, it was a work that Jesus is encouraging, rather than discouraging. Nowhere else did Jesus push the idea that faith is a work. I think that Jesus was just speaking in the language that they understood. In other words, ‘You want to do works?, then do this work.’
This is what God requires of us to have faith. He doesn't have faith for us, that's absurdity. Why would Jesus tell them to do something he had to make them do?

 

[Renniks]

You are still evading the point. Since you say "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 means every person everywhere can choose salvation, then your interpretation has "the whole world" containing the children of God lying in the evil one 1 John 5:19.

Use your brain and use context. I already explained. It means all are under sin, so we have to come out from that world. You are creating a problem by looking at it with no common sense.

 

[Renniks]

Lord Jesus commands "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:18-20), and in loving friendship, we followers of the way bear fruit (John 15:15-16).

They can not do any such thing in your theology. They can't obey. Only God can obey himself in your theology. They are just puppets. You don't tell puppets to beat fruit.

 

[Kermos]

You are the one who turned Jesus' words into nonsense.

They were looking for a work to perform,

Correct.

and Jesus told them that if they are seeking to do a work, then do the works of faith by believing in Him.

Incorrect.

Jesus told them that the whole thing of belief/faith is the work of God.

Jesus removed man from the matter of exercising faith/belief.

So this was something that Jesus was encouraging them to do, and was speaking in the language of terms that they identified with. So if calling upon the name of the Lord in faith is a work, it was a work that Jesus is encouraging, rather than discouraging. Nowhere else did Jesus push the idea that faith is a work.

Wrong again, Lord Jesus says belief/faith in a person is the work of God (John 6:29).

I think that Jesus was just speaking in the language that they understood. In other words, ??You want to do works?, then do this work.??
This is what God requires of us to have faith. He doesn't have faith for us, that's absurdity. Why would Jesus tell them to do something he had to make them do?

All of you questions are you shaking your fist at God saying why have you made me like this (Romans 9:20-23).

The Word of God says Who God is, and the Word of God says who man is.

This post about that Biblically indicates your belief/faith leads universalism, contextual destruction, and denial of Christ remains accurate.

 

[Kermos]

Kermos,

Stay out of corrupted commentaries and listen to good teachers..

Let me explain that verse..

The Hebrew word that is translated as "evil", means this... adversity, affliction, calamity, distress, misery..,death.

Now what is the context of that word in your verse, as you don't know, and the commentaries that you obsess on, dont know, but i do, so, let me explain it.

In that verse, at that time, in the OT....God is dealing only with His chosen, and He deals with them, in the OT< differently, then He deals with New Testament born again Saints.
IN the OT you have Law, and in the NT, you have GRACE.
So, you have to understand that in the OT< God would have the Jews kill everything that moved, when He sent them into a new location.
"kill them all"....dont even leave the cattle.........slay everything that has breath.... Leave nothing alive. Cut off their heads. Tear down their Baal Alters. KILL THEM ALL.
See that?
That is Old Testament God, vs the God that Sent His Son to create the New Testament.

So, do i have your attention, Kermos? Readers ???
As you Kermos are a dark light found so far on this Thread... and i'll help you out of that, if its possible, but probably it wont be , as you are obviously hell bent on proving that God is Evil....... So what kind of a person wants, WANTS to do that?
That you.
Dont you do this same evil on every Christian forum that has not kicked you off for doing it?
IM SURE YOU DO.
See yourself now? We do.
As that is what you are, when you define HOLY GOD as causing all the evil in the world, based on verses you dont understand and dont respect.

So...As i was saying.
IN the OT God was always dealing with His Chosen, and he dealt with them according to STRICT standards He set that, if they didnt keep them all, then he'd open up the ground and 3000 would fall into the hole and DIE.
No questions asked. No "civil rights" indicated.
That's what happened to disobedient " Hebrew chosen" the very day that Moses came down the mountain with the Law.
God killed 3000 as a specific type of "evil", that im explaining to you.
Now, compare that with Acts 2, when Peter is revealing Jesus as Messiah, and Grace is on the way, and 3000 are saved.

So, under the Law, in the OT, God would bring hardship, suffering, pain, and, worse, as correction to His Chosen, and that "evil" in that verse you misused, is regarding harsh harsh correction... as God considers that evil......tho, necessary.
What does that mean? It means that its not moral evil that God has created, but rather a necessary evil, or harsh harsh correction.
Sometimes you DIE, is how harsh this correction can be.

Let me give you an example of 2 "evils" that bear this definition, as it's to be understood.

1.) God brought the necessary "evil" of the FLOOD, and killed every thing that breathes, except for what was saved by the Ark, = out of the water.

2.) God brought the necessary "evil" of fire and brimstone to the sexually perverted who were in Sodom and Gomorrah.
They were DESTROYED by GOD.
So....See that punishment that in both cases is total destruction?
That is "evil" being brought by God into the lives and into the earth itself, when necessary.
See that word now, how it means "evil"? = adversity, affliction, calamity, distress, misery..,death.
Thats the VERSE you quoted.....that's how you understand it correctly.

And one more for you Kermos...... God is going to bring another of these destructive evil's into this world very soon, and that one is "in flaming fire taking Vengeance on all who do not obey the GOSPEL".

See that evil? That is Jesus imparting indescribable suffering.
Thats the Lamb of God come back here as the LION OF JUDAH, and He is going to cause such "evil", as you didnt understand it, in the verse you quoted.

Notice that this "evil" that Jesus is going to bring.... is not God being morally evil, or creating sin, which is evil, or evil deeds...but rather its the destruction of the wicked and evil itself.

By the grace of God, I'll stick with the Word of God Who says "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YHWH do all these things" (Isaiah 45:7), not your attempt to evade the Word of God that preemptively refutes your posted statement of "God has no part in evil".

 

[Kermos]

Use your brain and use context. I already explained. It means all are under sin, so we have to come out from that world. You are creating a problem by looking at it with no common sense.

You persist in evading the point. Since you say "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 means every person everywhere can choose salvation, then your interpretation has "the whole world" containing the children of God lying in the evil one 1 John 5:19.

YOUR INTERPRETATION HAS "THE WHOLE WORLD" CONTAINING THE CHILDREN OF GOD LYING IN THE EVIL ONE 1 JOHN 5:19.

The children of God lie in the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24); furthermore for clarity sake, the children of God do not lie in the evil one.

Scripture decimates your interpretation (2 Peter 1:20-21). If you say "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19 does not contain the children of God, then you prove the point that "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 means only the persons that are yet to believe.

YOU ARE ENGAGED IN CONTEXTUAL DESTRUCTION WITH 1 JOHN 2:2 RESPECTING "THE WHOLE WORLD" MEANING EVERY PERSON EVERYWHERE.

This post about that Biblically indicates your belief/faith leads universalism, contextual destruction, and denial of Christ remains accurate.

 

[Kermos]

They can not do any such thing in your theology. They can't obey. Only God can obey himself in your theology. They are just puppets. You don't tell puppets to beat fruit.

God works faith/belief in people (John 6:29), so saved persons bear fruit in obedience (John 15:16). Your claims are refuted by the Word of God.

Now, you mock the Potter by mocking the Potter's vessels of mercy (Romans 9:20-23) with your use of "puppets"!

This post about that Biblically indicates your belief/faith leads universalism, contextual destruction, and denial of Christ remains accurate.

 

[Cooper]

I was reading the Bible commentators this morning, looking to see what is meant when we are irresistibly drawn. I thought it meant we were being irresistibly drawn by God, but apparently not. It is what happens when patriotic Americans rally round the American flag. The flag itself does not exert a force. The force comes from within the people themselves.

It is what happened in the '49 gold rush when people were irresistibly drawn to the gold. The gold itself was not drawing the people, the motivating force came from within themselves.

In the gold rush, they went of their own freewill believing they would be rich. We go to God in faith believing we will be saved.

The child is drawn to the ice cream, but the ice cream does not draw the child. The love of ice cream comes from within.

Any comments, anyone?

 

[Renniks]

All of you questions are you shaking your fist at God saying why have you made me like this (Romans 9:20-23).

What questions? My answers is that faith is the requirement of God. Without faith we can't please him. This is what Jesus was explaining. That their works weren't worth anything without faith in Jesus.

 

[Renniks]

By the grace of God, I'll stick with the Word of God Who says "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YHWH do all these things" (Isaiah 45:7), not your attempt to evade the Word of God that preemptively refutes your posted statement of "God has no part in evil".

Behold is correct. God will hold you accountable for attributing evil to him. You need to repent of that false belief. That's what pagan religions believe. Ying and yang. Dark and light. No! God is light and in him is no darkness!

 

[Renniks]

You persist in evading the point. Since you say "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 means every person everywhere can choose salvation, then your interpretation has "the whole world" containing the children of God lying in the evil one 1 John 5:19.

YOUR INTERPRETATION HAS "THE WHOLE WORLD" CONTAINING THE CHILDREN OF GOD LYING IN THE EVIL ONE 1 JOHN 5:19.

The children of God lie in the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24); furthermore for clarity sake, the children of God do not lie in the evil one.

Scripture decimates your interpretation (2 Peter 1:20-21). If you say "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19 does not contain the children of God, then you prove the point that "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 means only the persons that are yet to believe.

YOU ARE ENGAGED IN CONTEXTUAL DESTRUCTION WITH 1 JOHN 2:2 RESPECTING "THE WHOLE WORLD" MEANING EVERY PERSON EVERYWHERE.

This post about that Biblically indicates your belief/faith leads universalism, contextual destruction, and denial of Christ remains accurate.

Like I said, no context. No commen sense. That verse is a problem for calvinists, though. Because if the world is in any way controlled by Satan, their whole system is wrong. They believe in a form of sovereignty where God controls everything at all times, not Satan. The whole world is everyone. If you say it's everyone but the children of God then you have to acknowledge that Christ died for all still in the world. See that? Your interpretation fails on every level.