For free will believers out there
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Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
I firmly believe that after their mortal death, they will hear of Christ and have the choice accept to reject Him. God is ever just.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
There has been what once was a very intense, lively and even heated debate on "Calvinism vs. Armeniaism" It has devolved into name calling which is sad and people outright telling untruths.
But a side point for which I am starting this thread for is this;
For those who believe that unsaved man has free will to freely choose God or not, I ask you this.
What about the tens of billions who have lived and died and never once even had a chance to hear the name Jesus even once? The bible celarly teaches that aprt from faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus for ones sin, one is lost, what about all those who unever even had a chance to "exercise" this supposed free will?
They never had a chance to accept or reject christ even once! Before you spout how they could be saved by their conscience, let me remind you that in the same book (Romans) it say s no one is righteous and no one seeks after God!
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
All have sinned and without trusting in the payment for ones sin they are lost. Unless you are promoting two gospels. The o gospel of Jesus for those who have had a chance to hear the gospel and another gospel of salvation for those who never hear.
And if that were true, like A B Simpson from the CMA wrote in the 1800's in the book "Missionary Messages"- that if the unsaved can be saved by some way apart form the hearing and believing in the gospel as it says in Romans 10, the church is a fool for sending missionaries all over the world, for once they have heard the gospel, they are now responsible to the gospel.
If those who have no tyet heard the gospel can be saved apart from the gospel- then the church would do better taking those billions it spends yearly on missions and use them for another reason. But no ! That is not the case. These are people who for generations have never hasd the witness of the gospel in their lands and have died without once getting a chance to exercise that "free will". does that make God the monster you think I make him to be or what?
Serious respondents only.
To the contrary, I believe that most of the people that have responded to you have been patient with you.
You have had some pretty "sweet" people try to show you the light, but you are dead set on darkness.
What is a Christian to do with a theology that portrays God as a monster?
What is a Christian to do with a theology that denies the deity of Christ?
What is a Christian to do with a theology that believes that God is an alien astronaut?
As Christians and Americans, we can ignore it, the freedom of religion thing.
Christian Americans believe people have the right to choose....ironically you believe you are enslaved. That is just somewhere between ironic and funny!
But when you get on a forum and start discussing or debating these Klondike beliefs, people are going to be offended, because you are affectively attacking their God. By definition what you believe is blasphemy.
I commend the people that have responded to you for their politeness and patience.
As for me, I am rough. I have no tolerance for straight up evil! I have been stomping it my whole life. And I give no apologies.
Then on the other hand no one can say that I am not tolerant of other Christian denominations. I am multi-denominational, I fellowship with Baptists, Lutherans, Pentecostals, Catholics, Glad Tidings Assembly of God, Mormons, the Moravians and nearly a dozen non-denominational churches and I have had Jewish friend from the time I was a kid. I have my favorites, I am big on the Holy Ghost churches but I enjoy my time with all of them.
But I give evil no tolerance, no mercy, no quarter. You give evil an inch and it will take a mile. So don't expect any tolerance from me...You blaspheme God and I will go nose to nose with you. You preach the subjugation of women and I will be in your face. No apologies.
Exactly. That was my point. He was saved without ever knowing who Jesus was. He didn't have access to that information.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
And what was the promise of GOD . JESUS WAS . now leap for joy . abraham DID have faith in a coming savoir . yes indeed .
OH let the glorious Lord be praised .
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Hi Ronald,
There have been so many threads on this very controversial subject, and everyone of them end up the same with name calling and nastiness. I include myself in that as, I too have come back in kind to some
It used to make me wonder about those who might never hear the Gospel and, I came up with a couple scriptures that might speak to this:
Matthew 24:14
"And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."
Romans 1:19-20
"For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse."
Revelation
"Then I saw another angel flying directly overhead, with an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on earth, to every nation and tribe and language and people. And he said with a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come, and worship him who made heaven and earth, the sea and the springs of water.”
I am posting sister nancys response again . Look closely . and let the LORD be praised .
There have been so many threads on this very controversial subject, and everyone of them end up the same with name calling and nastiness. I include myself in that as, I too have come back in kind to some
It used to make me wonder about those who might never hear the Gospel and, I came up with a couple scriptures that might speak to this:
Matthew 24:14
"And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."
Romans 1:19-20
"For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse."
Revelation
"Then I saw another angel flying directly overhead, with an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on earth, to every nation and tribe and language and people. And he said with a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come, and worship him who made heaven and earth, the sea and the springs of water.”
I am posting sister nancys response again . Look closely . and let the LORD be praised .
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Every person has the opportunity to accept Christ. None are denied.
Yes faith in Christ.
For the promise was of a coming Christ (Genesis 3:15)
He just didn't know His name.
1Co 14:34, Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1Co 14:35, And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
1Co 14:36, What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
1Co 14:37, If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
1Co 14:38, But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
1Ti 2:9, In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
1Ti 2:10, But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
1Ti 2:11, Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12, But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1Ti 2:13, For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14, And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1Pe 3:1, Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
1Pe 3:2, While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.
1Pe 3:3, Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
1Pe 3:4, But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
1Pe 3:5, For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
1Pe 3:6, Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
Better get in the faces of Peter and Paul.
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OzSpen
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There has been what once was a very intense, lively and even heated debate on "Calvinism vs. Armeniaism" It has devolved into name calling which is sad and people outright telling untruths.
But a side point for which I am starting this thread for is this;
For those who believe that unsaved man has free will to freely choose God or not, I ask you this.
What about the tens of billions who have lived and died and never once even had a chance to hear the name Jesus even once? The bible celarly teaches that aprt from faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus for ones sin, one is lost, what about all those who unever even had a chance to "exercise" this supposed free will?
They never had a chance to accept or reject christ even once! Before you spout how they could be saved by their conscience, let me remind you that in the same book (Romans) it say s no one is righteous and no one seeks after God!
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
All have sinned and without trusting in the payment for ones sin they are lost. Unless you are promoting two gospels. The o gospel of Jesus for those who have had a chance to hear the gospel and another gospel of salvation for those who never hear.
And if that were true, like A B Simpson from the CMA wrote in the 1800's in the book "Missionary Messages"- that if the unsaved can be saved by some way apart form the hearing and believing in the gospel as it says in Romans 10, the church is a fool for sending missionaries all over the world, for once they have heard the gospel, they are now responsible to the gospel.
If those who have no tyet heard the gospel can be saved apart from the gospel- then the church would do better taking those billions it spends yearly on missions and use them for another reason. But no ! That is not the case. These are people who for generations have never hasd the witness of the gospel in their lands and have died without once getting a chance to exercise that "free will". does that make God the monster you think I make him to be or what?
Serious respondents only.
Please learn the difference between Armenianism & Arminianism.
101G
Well-Known Member
Addressing the OP, haven't read all the replies, I'm sure someone have answered it.. for me one verse, Romans 14:9 "For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living."
this is why he went and preached to those (spirits) who was in prison. for God is not .... not anymore the God of the LIVING only, but of the dead also.. (this is WHY I know God as his own diversity/another tasted death for all men).. and knowing that, it answered you question, "For those who believe that unsaved man has free will to freely choose God or not", one scripture, Joel 2:32 "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call."
that one word, "whosoeve" shows us that it is not set, but it incompass every "whosoeve".
well what do you mean 101G? scripture, 1 Timothy 2:4 "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."
and all men are the "whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered", or SAVED.. so God has set it for all to be saved, but it is "whosoever call upon his name, which means,
Romans 10:14 "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?"
Romans 10:15 "And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!"Romans 10:16 "But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?"
Romans 10:17 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
Now if you're dead.... Romans 14:9 "For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living." and remember our Lord Jesus is a PREACHER, so DEAD or ALIVE, no man "WHOSOEVER" have any excuse.
101G, Ss
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Let us be encouraged in the things that be of God .
Jesus alone is our only hope . That if you shall confess him by mouth and believe from the heart that God has rose
Him from the dead you shall be saved .
Let that be the focus . No other mindset is necessary to entertain .
We must believe in HIM to be saved and those who do not , as Jesus said
will be damned . Now let all rejoice in the Lord .
Jesus alone is our only hope . That if you shall confess him by mouth and believe from the heart that God has rose
Him from the dead you shall be saved .
Let that be the focus . No other mindset is necessary to entertain .
We must believe in HIM to be saved and those who do not , as Jesus said
will be damned . Now let all rejoice in the Lord .
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Great question! And thanks for starting this thread. (I avoided the other one, mostly if not entirely)
IMO, the dilemma is rooted in why one should seek salvation. Although raised a Catholic, as a young man I turned my back on Christianity, in part due to this reason. My Catholic friends could not answer the END GAME. We accept Jesus, go to heaven and then what? What do we do with eternal life?
It is the same dilemma as infants who die, right? So, if your focus is on what about those <INSERTION EXCEPTION/EXEMPTION CLAUSE HERE>, then you are making yourself impotent in focusing on things above your pay grade AS IF our purpose, is the END GAME noted above. The mantra in my church is, God's job is results; our job is obedience.
This mantra reveals a different focus. The focus is serving the will of God. By spreading the Kingdom, as he commanded, the Spirit expands. The fruit of the Spirit expands so people benefit now. Now, benefitting now by receiving the Holy Spirit of God, to take the opportunity to be a foot soldier in doing his bidding, to have divinity within you as you live out your life NOW is an entirely different reason one should seek salvation.
Let me ask you this; what do you think and feel about those who have not heard of Jesus and cannot be saved through him now? To your way of thinking, you might say I promote 2 Gospels. However, I believe it rolls into one: saved by Jesus now or later (in the after-life). I advocate sooner for all concerned.
You bring up a very good point, ...but, I'm not sure if I will address it from the free-will standpoint, for free-will does not pertain only to accepting the Gospel of Christ.There has been what once was a very intense, lively and even heated debate on "Calvinism vs. Armeniaism" It has devolved into name calling which is sad and people outright telling untruths.
But a side point for which I am starting this thread for is this;
For those who believe that unsaved man has free will to freely choose God or not, I ask you this.
What about the tens of billions who have lived and died and never once even had a chance to hear the name Jesus even once? The bible celarly teaches that aprt from faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus for ones sin, one is lost, what about all those who unever even had a chance to "exercise" this supposed free will?
They never had a chance to accept or reject christ even once! Before you spout how they could be saved by their conscience, let me remind you that in the same book (Romans) it say s no one is righteous and no one seeks after God!
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
All have sinned and without trusting in the payment for ones sin they are lost. Unless you are promoting two gospels. The o gospel of Jesus for those who have had a chance to hear the gospel and another gospel of salvation for those who never hear.
And if that were true, like A B Simpson from the CMA wrote in the 1800's in the book "Missionary Messages"- that if the unsaved can be saved by some way apart form the hearing and believing in the gospel as it says in Romans 10, the church is a fool for sending missionaries all over the world, for once they have heard the gospel, they are now responsible to the gospel.
If those who have no tyet heard the gospel can be saved apart from the gospel- then the church would do better taking those billions it spends yearly on missions and use them for another reason. But no ! That is not the case. These are people who for generations have never hasd the witness of the gospel in their lands and have died without once getting a chance to exercise that "free will". does that make God the monster you think I make him to be or what?
Serious respondents only.
I believe that there were more than one dispensation in God's plan for salvation, at a particular time. I cannot imagine that any of the OT saints knew of Jesus Christ, knew of his pre-eminence as first-born of creation, nor of his passion or soteriological impact and mandate. But, again, as first-born of creation, as the Lord and Judge of all things, as the means by which all things were created (not the Creator), one cannot deny his fundamental and timeless significance (not eternal).
I believe therefore that faith in God is the catalyst behind all men's redemption, but this was meant to direct those under the final dispensation to come to a more complete faith - the Father's love for the son and Christ's consequent pre-ordained Lordship, which was justified by his love for the Father.
Thus, it is reprobate to think that Christ is not the Saviour of all men who lived after he rose from the dead. This is a comprehensively fundamental principle, that transcends any form of righteousness or justice - Christ will be Lord of Lords, and King of Kings, the Judge of all men, the one and only, who will hand all things back to Father at the appointed time. Thus, is there anyone else, or a greater principle that can supersede the aforementioned attributes of Christ?
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Just to clarify your position. Are you that sexist that you are OK with the subjugation of men? There is a divine order and human beings, neither men nor women are on top.
3 But it is important that you understand this about headship: the Anointed One is the head of every man, the husband is the head of his wife, and God is the head of the Anointed.
1 Corinthians 11:3 (Voice)
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Well ya know, I know some men that think they are under the rule of women. Ain't nobody happy if momma's not happy. LOL
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Nietzsche warned to be careful about the monster you chase, for you may become the monster ... If only we had a template or role model to follow, an authority we could rely on to guide us on such matters.
But I say to you not to resist evil
Matthew 5:39 (Douay-Rheims)
24 Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 25 For whoever would save his life[a] will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. 26 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul?
Matthew 16:24-26 (ESV)
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