Grailhunter, do you believe that you, right now, are a part of "the whole world" as it is written in "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19)?
Calvinism vs. Arminianism
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justbyfaith, do you believe that faith/belief in Jesus whom the Father has sent is the work of God?
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
I am in the whole world...not necessarily part of it. Does the verse say...
God so loved the elect of the world...
God so loved part of the world....
God so loved some of the world....
Flat statement...God so loved the world....And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
He's got the whole world in His hands!
And blessed be His glorious name forever; And may the whole earth be filled with His glory. Amen, and Amen. Psalm 72:19
In his hand are the depths of the earth, and the mountain peaks belong to him. Psalm 95:4
And one called out to another and said, “Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord of hosts, The whole earth is full of His glory.” Isiah 6:3
The big Kahuna
If I throw you a life rope....do you want the whole thing or just part of it? LOL
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Cooper
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In the first verse of Isaiah 45 we read of Cyrus.
Xenophon says that Cyrus conquered the Syrians, Assyrians, Arabians, Cappadocians, both the Phrygians, Lydians, Carians, Phoenicians, Babylonians; and also reigned over the Bactrians, Indians, Cilicians, the Sacae, Paphlagones, and Mariandyni.
Moses killed thousands, and according to Jesus the god of the Jews is the devil. John 8:44.
The family of Adam and Eve and their descendants were evil. You remind me that YHWH creates evil according to your understanding of Genesis 2:17.
We know Jesus came to conquer sin and evil. We know he came to the Jews first, and we know the Bible is an account of the Jews. So what are you telling me and are you proud of it?
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He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2 )
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. -1 John 4:14
In these passages John states that Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world, and came to be Savior of the the world. The Greek word for world is kosmos. The English word “cosmos” is derived from this word. Cosmos means the entire universe.
For example, 1 John 5:19 states: We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.
In 1 John 5:19 “whole world” cannot refer to only the elect, because it is speaking of the present fallen world under the control of Satan. It is this same world that Jesus died for.
For the purpose of illustrating John’s consistent use of kosmos, here is every occurrence from First John. Note how often John makes reference to the present fallen world. There is no exegetical merit to change the meaning to “elect” in 1 John 2:2 and 1 John 4:14.
1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2:15-17 Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For everything in the world—the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does—comes not from the Father but from the world. The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever.
1 John 3:1 How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him.
1 John 3:13 Do not be surprised, my brothers, if the world hates you.
1 John 4:1-3 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
1 John 4:4-5 You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them.
1 John 4:9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him.
1 John 4:13-18 We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God. And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him. There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. [Notice how the Calvinist definition of world contradicts itself within this particular passage]
1 John 5:3-5 This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.
1 John 5:19 We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.
In summary, The terms “whole world” and “world” as used in First John apply to the entire world. The same world that is under the control of Satan is the same world for which Jesus died.
Ronald Nolette
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In what? Knowing Scripture? From you ?? Thanks but no thanks. You mix scripture with human logic and have produced a toxic beverage.
Cooper
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The same as Jesus and His parables. Thank you for the compliment. Even then they had problems understanding him. So, like I say, feel free to ask.
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Of course.
God gives us faith and we must receive it in order to apprehend it and therefore possess it.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
I have enough Godly advisors, thank you.
I understand the parables just fine, thanks.
I wish you understood teh total inability of the human nature to choose God as the Scriptures say! YOu imply you know the stories, but don't know the clear teachings!
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
If you call this substantial evidence for a "middle ground," there might be a problem here.
Grunt Hemlock
Active Member
Nancy
Well-Known Member
One will NEVER see an alter call, nor will a Calvinist EVER say that Jesus loves you. And, some of the most staunch ones will not even evangelize.
Not saying that Calvinists are not saved, just pointing out that (from personal experience) there is not a lot of hope in this doctrine.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Well your right, it is above our paygrade to determine if someone is saved....but on Judgment Day can you imagine them standing before Christ accounting for their beliefs and the fact that they taught their beliefs to children....Will they be wearing a number 7 or number 8 millstone?
Nancy
Well-Known Member
The evidence for a middle ground is in 2 Corinthians 6:1-2....
my teaching was not extensive in the OP.
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
Deuteronomy 30:1-3,6
[1] And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath driven thee, [2] And shalt return unto the Lord thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; [3] That then the Lord thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath scattered thee.
[6] And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
Note for the Calvinist:
Notice that God will not circumcise the heart until WE do something of our own free will.
[1] And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath driven thee, [2] And shalt return unto the Lord thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; [3] That then the Lord thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath scattered thee.
[6] And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
Note for the Calvinist:
Notice that God will not circumcise the heart until WE do something of our own free will.
Grailhunter, you wrote "in the whole world", but I wrote "part of the whole world", so you did not accurately represent the question, so I ask specifically again. Do you, Grailhunter, believe that you, right now, are a part of "the whole world" as it is written in "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19)?
What has not been answered by those of the Calvinistic bent is the fact that John 1:12 teaches us that a person is not born of God before receiving Jesus as Lord and Saviour.
The order in the verse is that we receive Him, and THEN we receive the right / power to become the sons of God.
So, Calvinism has it backwards.
The order in the verse is that we receive Him, and THEN we receive the right / power to become the sons of God.
So, Calvinism has it backwards.
The first verse of Isaiah 45 does not change the fact that the "I" in Isaiah 45:7 is referring to God.
That has zero impact on the fact that God declares "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YHWH do all these things" (Isaiah 45:7).
Jesus said "father" not "god".
Lord Jesus is the Word of God (John 1:14), and the Word of God says "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YHWH do all these things" (Isaiah 45:7).
You just wrote that "YHWH creates evil". It appears that you just contradicted your own defiant argument. The Word of God declares "I" "create evil" (Isaiah 45:7).
I am telling you that, according to the Word of God, God forms the light and God creates darkness and God makes peace and God creates evil (Isaiah 45:7).
I am in admiration of all of the Word of God.
Now that I've answered your question, I pose a question, "where did this branch of this thread start to include Isaiah 45:7", and I answer this question by writing that the first mention of Isaiah 45:7 that I noticed in this thread was this post which was a reply to an unscriptural posting.
If you spent a moment going through the thread, you might have noticed this.
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