Calvinism vs. Arminianism

[Renniks]

BTW I know of many people who were close to me, who accepted the Arimnius position that one could lose their salvation and walked away from the faith, because they kept being taught that they were sinners.

How is that possible, if they were chosen by God?

 

[Cooper]

BTW I know of many people who were close to me, who accepted the Arimnius position that one could lose their salvation and walked away from the faith, because they kept being taught that they were sinners.

We are sinners saved by grace as you will know. We all make mistakes, and we all get the wrong end of the stick from time to time. I have been meditating on this for the last few days, and while I was reading the Bible commentators to see what is meant when we are irresistibly drawn. I thought it meant we were being irresistibly drawn by God, but apparently not. It is what happens when patriotic Americans rally round the American flag. The flag itself does not exert a force. The force comes from within the people themselves.

It is what happened in the '49 gold rush when people were irresistibly drawn to the gold. The gold itself was not exerting a force, it simply existed, the irresistible force came from within themselves. In the gold rush, they went of their own freewill believing they would be rich. We go to God in faith believing we will be saved. Another example is the child who is drawn to the ice cream. The ice cream does not draw the child. The love of ice cream comes from within.

It was not the ice cream that drew the to it, it was the child's desire. I stopped there, so let us see what happened next. In came the Father and like all good fathers he loved his children, and because of his love, he did the deal and gave the ice cream to the child. Now the ice cream, the Father and the Child are as one.

The Father, knowing his children, knew that some would go for the ice cream, and he also knew some of his children would walk away from the ice cream and instead choose the slot machines. That is God's foreknowledge, and he knew who they would be from the foundation of the earth. The choice is ours which we make of our own freewill. Some chose Christ while others do not.

God did not elect some to follow him and for others to go Hell. It was simply His foreknowledge. The Father loved all his children equally, and it would break His heart that some of his children made the wrong choice. Denomination aside we are all one in Christ Jesus.
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[Heart2Soul]

Simply? Because we are commanded to! Jesus commissioned the chruch to go out and bring in the lost sheep and bring the Wheat into the Storehouses.

All my preaching doesn't save a soul. The Holy Spirit does. I don't know who is predestined or not. God does. If I don't obery? I lose out on blessings and god will raise up someone else to do the job He called me to do! Not one of Gods sheep will ever be lost.

I understand what you are saying...what I am not understanding is if we are predestined by God then is there any possibility that some of the predestined might choose not to be destined to serve God and then what? Beat them into submission for they are predestined and have no say so in the matter?
My point is when it comes to salvation each of us must work it out with fear and trembling....my neighbor smokes pot but claims he is saved....in my church upbringing there is no tolerance for any drug of any form in the body of Christ. It alters the mind too much and allows for demons to put twisted truths also called lies and deception to make our minds believe it is coming from God....so anyone who uses drugs usually has demons influencing their minds when they are under the influence.
Our names are written in The Book of Life since the foundation of creation...but they can get blotted out.
So in this sense, yes we were predestined to serve Him, but some chose to reject Him and their names may get blotted out if there is no repentance.

 

[Kermos]

Nope... you are reading it backwards. When does God ever say asking questions is shaking your fist at him? He doesn't. Paul asks why a rebellious Jew talks back to God about God using his rebellion to reach the gentiles. You probably think this verse is about us, don't you? It's not. In fact, John 6 isn't really about us either, in context. It's about a group of hardeneded Jews and it's about the diciples. The Jews would get thier chance at salvation again after Jesus rose and maybe some would remember Jesus' teachings here about following him.

So, when Jesus said he will lose none given him by the Father, lost is not in some abstract, spiritual sense of salvation, but lost to the sword or prison before they could fulfill their mission. That??s the ??losing?? Jesus is talking about in John 6:39, and the Apostle John is telling you in John 18 that Jesus protected the Apostles from Roman violence/judgment to fulfill what Jesus said back in John 6. It??s right there. What mission? The mission Jesus just talked about in the high priestly prayer: to preach the Gospel. Not everything in the New Testament is about gentile believers 2000 years later.

The Apostle Paul wrote "who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, 'Why did you make me like this,'" (Romans 9:20). Behold, Renniks, you wrote "When does God ever say asking questions is shaking your fist at him? He doesn't.". Paul's expressiveness conveys something akin to shaking one's fist. See how the question by the thing molded as mentioned by Paul, see how that question "Why did you make me like this" is similar to your rebellious question quoted two paragraphs down.

Romans 9, John 6, and John 18 are about persons as well as persons relation with God (or lack thereof), and you desperately try to make the meaning exclusively to the Jews thus you attempt to conceal the true meaning. You sure are adept at subtracting from scripture!

So, as I wrote accurately before, here is just one question which carries connotation that I quoted from your post, "Why would Jesus tell them to do something he had to make them do?". That question of yours is you shaking your fist at God saying why have you made me like this (Romans 9:20-23).

You just wrote "That their works weren't worth anything without faith in Jesus", yet the very faith you that Jesus made He identified that faith/belief as the work of God, not as a choice by man, the King of Glory says faith/belief in Jesus is the work of God.

When Jesus says "This is the work of God, that you beleive in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29)

1. Jesus explains that the whole thing of belief/faith in Jesus is the work of God.
2. Jesus removed man from the matter of exercising faith/belief in Jesus because the people asked "how do we work the works of God", yet King Jesus removed the work of a person since the Lord removed the "how do we work" in His answer to the people.
3. Jesus retained that faith/belief is a work, and He specifically identifed faith/belief as THE WORK OF GOD

This post Biblically indicates your belief/faith leads universalism, contextual destruction, and denial of Christ, and this post remains accurate.

 

[Kermos]

No, the proper interpretation is God creating calamity for rebellious people.

The conclusion of the scholars claiming that God is morally ambiguous if he originates both good and evil is irrefutable. Calvinists escape this conclusion only by the mere assertion that it is not so. In their view good and evil originate from God ??in such a way?? that God remains all good. What does it mean to say God is ??all good?? if it doesn??t rule out the possibility that he could do evil?
It's absurdity.
The Isaiah passage is addressing the future deliverance of the children of Israel out of Babylon (Isa. 45:1??6). As a number of scholars have argued, the ??light?? and ??darkness?? of this passages refers to ??liberation?? and ??captivity??
God??s ??creating?? here is not ex nihilo, but action which gives specific shape to a situation of historical judgment.
In other words, God is judging people for their actions by allowing calamity to befall them.
It has nothing to do with God creating evil.

You again try to change scripture to fit your interpretation by changing a word, but it's not up to you because the Apostle Peter says it is up to the Holy Spirit (2 Peter 1:20-21)..

The Word of God says "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YHWH do all these things" (Isaiah 45:7).

That word "evil" in English is "ra" in Hebrew, and we find "ra" in "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" in Genesis 2:17.

This means that God says that God creates evil. You appear to have no problem contradicting the Word of God.

 

[Kermos]

This isn't about salvation either. It's spoken to the diciples. Context, context!

The Romans 9:20-23 passage is most certainly about salvation as well as lack of salvation.

The Potter creating vessels of wrath for destruction (Romans 9:22).

The Potter creating vessels of mercy for God's glory (Romans 9:23).

The Potter is God.

God causes mockers, based strictly upon God's choosing for salvation (John 15:16, John 15:19), to become children of God by the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24), so your first paragraph shows that you disagree with Who the Word of God says He is (John 14:6). I don't know if you are one of God's chosen people, but right now, you are a mocker of the Potter.

You interpret Romans 9:20-23 such that the clay to be about the only about a nation as a whole, but that is your interpretation not in accord with the Holy Spirit (2 Peter 1:20-21) for individual persons are contextually accurate when we examine that Paul wrote "who are you, O man, who answers back to God" (Romans 2:20). Paul did not write "who are you, O nation", NO! Paul wrote "who are you, O man", so individual persons are the context of Romans 9:20-23.

This means that you mock the Potter by mocking the Potter's vessels of mercy (Romans 9:20-23) with your use of "puppets" in your post!

This post Biblically indicates your belief/faith leads to universalism, contextual destruction, and denial of Christ, and this post remains accurate.

 

[Kermos]

I don't believe God makes puppets. That's your gig. You are mocking every verse that encourages us to believe or praises faith. Want to hear some?


For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
Luke 9:24
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
Mark 8:35
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Romans 10:11
Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
1 John 4:15
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Acts 2:21
And said unto them, Whosoever shall receive this child in my name receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me: for he that is least among you all, the same shall be great.
Luke 9:48

There you go again, mocking God's by calling God's vessels of mercy your derogatory "puppets", as previously shown in this thread right here.

There you go again, changing the meaning of "believe" and "faith/belief" in your mind against the very Word of God who defines belief/faith when He says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29), as previously shown in this thread right here. Every instance of "believe" or "belief/faith" in the list you provide is the work of God in a person; furthermore, the "believe" or "belief/faith" is not something that man manipulates, rather, whereever the English translations state "your faith" comes from Greek more accurately as "the faith of you" which comes to be very clear when read with "the God of you".

When Greek has been translated "whosoever" in the KJV, it is truly "who ever" in English.

The word "whosoever" is not promiscuous as in unknowns.

The word "whosoever" is not "whosoever will choose"; therefore, a choice is not described.

The word "whosoever" is associated with a work, an action, a deed, a fruit; therefore, fruit of righteousness done by a believer in the Way (John 14:6) is of God (John 15:5, John 3:21).

You are trying to steal God's glory that God reserves unto Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Kermos]

That's correct. We are all born sinners. But again you are creating a conflict that simply isn't there if a person reads with common sense.

You say "common sense", but you mean your interpretation, yet you again try to change scripture to fit your interpretation by changing word meaning, but it's not up to you because the Apostle Peter says it is up to the Holy Spirit (2 Peter 1:20-21).

You persist in evading the point. Since you say "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 means every person everywhere can choose salvation, then your interpretation of "the whole world" has you, Renniks, as part of "the whole world" lying in the evil one per 1 John 5:19. This is covered in this post.

No Christian lies in the evil one for the Apostle John wrote "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13).

This means that in John 5:19, Christians are not a part of "the whole world" that is in the evil one.

But, according to you, "the whole world" is all of everyone everywhere, so that puts you outside of understanding the scripture pers Peter (2 Peter 1:20-21).

 

[Kermos]

That's an incredibly odd way to read the Bible, and I'm trying to be nice here. It means that basically the verse says that Jesus died not only for us but also for us.
The whole world is the whole world.

You just proved what I wrote about your interpretation in this post.

You reference "the whole world" in your post right there, and you and I have been corresponding about 1 John 2:2, so when "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19 is applied, based on your interpretation of "the whole world" that you express, then that puts you, Renniks, in the evil one. A Christian is not in the evil one (1 John 2:13).

 

[Grunt Hemlock]

It mocks God to make Him into the PuppetMaster that Calvinism makes Him.

 

[Cooper]

To a servant of God, church dogma matters not one jot. When we live according to the Word of God, as recorded in 1 Corinthians 9:25 our election is assured.
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[Ronald Nolette]

We are sinners saved by grace as you will know. We all make mistakes, and we all get the wrong end of the stick from time to time. I have been meditating on this for the last few days, and it came to me a few minutes ago.

I gave an illustration of a small child being drawn to an ice cream and I made the point it was not the ice cream that was doing the drawing, it was the child's desire. I stopped there, so let us see what happened next. In came the Father and like all good fathers he loved his children, and because of his love, he did the deal and gave the ice cream to the child. Now the ice cream, the Father and the Child are as one.

The Father, knowing his children, knew that some would go for the ice cream, and he also knew some of his children would walk away from the ice cream and instead choose the slot machines. That is God's foreknowledge, and he knew who they would be from the foundation of the earth. The choice is ours which we make of our own freewill. Some chose Christ while others do not.

The Father did not elect for some to choose ice cream and for others to choose something else, it was simply the Father's foreknowledge. Those who make the right choice, and chose Christ are God's elect. Denomination aside we are all one in Christ Jesus.
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Nice sentimental story, but has nothing to do with salvation.

God allows us choices in life like what to eat, wear. live, love drive etc.etc.etc. These are our choices within th ebounds God set for man. So we can learn to love ice cream or not!

But let me re quote the Bible verses that shows that your "parable" has nothing to do with salvation:

Romans 8:5-8
King James Version

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Romans 7:18
King James Version

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Romans 3:10-12
King James Version

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

1 Corinthians 2:14
King James Version

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


So to follow your parable- that child doesn't even want ice cream!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I understand what you are saying...what I am not understanding is if we are predestined by God then is there any possibility that some of the predestined might choose not to be destined to serve God and then what? Beat them into submission for they are predestined and have no say so in the matter?
My point is when it comes to salvation each of us must work it out with fear and trembling....my neighbor smokes pot but claims he is saved....in my church upbringing there is no tolerance for any drug of any form in the body of Christ. It alters the mind too much and allows for demons to put twisted truths also called lies and deception to make our minds believe it is coming from God....so anyone who uses drugs usually has demons influencing their minds when they are under the influence.
Our names are written in The Book of Life since the foundation of creation...but they can get blotted out.
So in this sense, yes we were predestined to serve Him, but some chose to reject Him and their names may get blotted out if there is no repentance.

1. Predestined means you are picked. Period! YOu have to remember that when one is saved they are given a new nature! One that actually desires god and desires to serve Him!

Teh book of Life is different from the Lambs book of Life!

Yes we must work out with fear and rtrembling what god works in. for it is God who works in us both to will and to do of HIS good pleasure.

 

[Cooper]

So to follow your parable- that child doesn't even want ice cream!

Total rubbish. The child was drawn to the ice cream the same as the believer is drawn to Christ. She absolutely craved, yearned and wanted that ice cream more that anything else in the whole world. The others went and played on the slot machines, they did not care for the ice cream and that is exactly how it is in the Christian life. The Christian is drawn to Christ, the others were drawn to the things of the world.

Not only that, the Father knew the choices they would make, even before they did.
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[Ronald Nolette]

Total rubbish. The child was drawn to the ice cream the same as the believer is drawn to Christ. She absolutely craved, yearned and wanted that ice cream more that anything else in the whole world. The others went and played on the slot machines, they did not care for the ice cream and that is exactly how it is in the Christian life. The Christian is drawn to Christ, the others were drawn to the things of the world.

Not only that, the Father knew the choices they would make, even before they did.
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The bible says you are wrong as the verses I posted for about the tenth time shows! Man in his natural state does not want God nor the things of God! That is Gods word no matter how cute your parable is.

And I agree teh christian is drawn to Christ- by God the Fatheras Gods Word says. Not because we loved, craved, desired jesus, but because if we got those things it is because God powerfully drew us to Jesus!

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Human nature thinks loving Jesus is foolishness. Or the Word of God lies!

 

[Cooper]

1. Predestined means you are picked. Period! YOu have to remember that when one is saved they are given a new nature! One that actually desires god and desires to serve Him!

Teh book of Life is different from the Lambs book of Life!

Yes we must work out with fear and rtrembling what god works in. for it is God who works in us both to will and to do of HIS good pleasure.

Mary chose Christ. It was HER choice.

And Jesus answered and said to her, "Martha, Martha, you are worried and troubled about many things. But one thing is needed, and Mary has chosen that good part, which will not be taken away from her." (Luke 10:41-42)
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[Cooper]

The bible says you are wrong as the verses I posted for about the tenth time shows! Man in his natural state does not want God nor the things of God! That is Gods word no matter how cute your parable is.

And I agree teh christian is drawn to Christ- by God the Fatheras Gods Word says. Not because we loved, craved, desired jesus, but because if we got those things it is because God powerfully drew us to Jesus!

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Human nature thinks loving Jesus is foolishness. Or the Word of God lies!

You are talking about the natural man, but the SPIRITUAL man or woman chooses Christ.

Martha was concerned with earthly things, but Mary chose Christ.
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[Renniks]

• Jesus explains that the whole thing of belief/faith in Jesus is the work of God.

• Jesus removed man from the matter of exercising faith/belief in Jesus because the people asked "how do we work the works of God", yet King Jesus removed the work of a person since the Lord removed the "how do we work" in His answer to the people.

• Jesus retained that faith/belief is a work, and He specifically identifed faith/belief as THE WORK OF GOD

Faith isn't a work, Bubba.
And Jesus didn't say it was. I can not help it if you don't have reading comprehension.

 

[Renniks]

This means that God says that God creates evil. You appear to have no problem contradicting the Word of God.

You apparently have no problem blaspheming God by calling him evil.
"In him is no darkness at all."
But you don't believe that.

 

[justbyfaith]

Jesus retained that faith/belief is a work, and He specifically identifed faith/belief as THE WORK OF GOD

Jesus, in John 6:28-29, said that "This is the work of God, that you believe on Him whom He sent." as if to say that, okay, you want to insist on being saved by works, so I am going to say that the only work that will save you is faith in me.

That works and faith are mutually exclusive as pertains to salvation is evident in Ephesians 2:8-9.

We are saved by grace through faith but not of works.

If faith is truly a work, as some do attempt to contend, then in being saved by faith I would be saved by works; and the scripture would be broken.

But in John 6:28-29 Jesus is telling the person who insists on being saved by works that the only work that will save them is faith in Him. And since faith is in all reality not a work (as we have shown in Ephesians 2:8-9), that leaves the person who insists on salvation by works with only one option: to not trust in his works but to place his faith in Jesus Christ.