I believe all of scripture. And man opposing God with his own will is everywhere in the Bible. You just want to focus on one passage with no context.
The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !
- Thread starter brightfame52
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It says nowhere in the bible He didnt He didnt Love easu Rom 9 13
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. Thats limited right there.
Hate here just means he preferred Isreal to Edom. It's not even about the twins, in context.
22But the children inside her struggled with each other, and she said, “Why is this happening to me?” So Rebekah went to inquire of the LORD, 23and He declared to her: “Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you will be separated; one people will be stronger than the other, and the older will serve the younger.”
The older never did serve the younger, but the nation of Edom served Israel.
1The oracle of the word of the Lord to Israel by Malachi.2“I have loved you,” says the Lord. But you say, “How have you loved us?” “Is not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the Lord. “Yet I have loved Jacob3but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert.”4If Edom says, “We are shattered but we will rebuild the ruins,” the Lord of hosts says, “They may build, but I will tear down, and they will be called ‘the wicked country,’ and ‘the people with whom the Lord is angry forever.’ ”5Your own eyes shall see this, and you shall say, “Great is the Lord beyond the border of Israel!”
—Malachi 1:1-5
Paul was talking about Isreal and Edom, not the two babies. Esau very likely became a righteous man later in life.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Daring to limit God's generosity has always been the message of the self absorbed and greedy. Though not seeing God's overwhelming generosity towards themselves even, they insist it is not for certain others.....how presumptuous!
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My post you responded to was my reply post to brightframe52 and is about 1 John 2:2. That’s why my response was in that context.
What question do you seek an answer to? Is it this one?
“ In what sense can he love the whole world, if he's chosen that most will perish with no chance at redemption?”
Why do you ask such as question to me? Did I claim that God had chosen people to perish? Now, you want me to answer your question, a question meant for the straw man you made there.
There is no choosing or election by God of people to perish. What people God had chosen, is a people that He makes to be His own people, whom He gives to Jesus Christ to raise up at the last day, and give them life, even eternal life.
Tong
R2351
Then believe also the truth in what Jesus said in John 6:39.
<<<And man opposing God with his own will is everywhere in the Bible.>>>
That’s right. So? What has that to do with the will of the Father for the Son to do concerning those He gives to him to raise up at the last day?
<<<You just want to focus on one passage with no context.>>>
John 6:39 is only to give you what is one among the many scriptures that speaks of the Father’s will for the Son to do. The context is salvation, if you did not realize that.
On the other hand you seem to be ever ready to object, putting up the will of man and mix it in the scriptures that does not speak about it and which speaks about God’s will.
Tong
R2352
And keeping saying that does not make it the truth, perhaps it will to you.
I guess you believe that Jesus fulfilled scriptures and the law. Do you know the law concerning atonement for people, the people of Israel? Was it a sacrifice for all Israel or only for some of Israel? I ask because that law foreshadows the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ.
Tong
R2353
Scriptures that indicate that Jesus Christ died and rose again for a specific and definite people
Matt 1:21
21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins
Notice, His People and not all people without exception. His People, and not all ethnic jews, for all ethnic jews are not His People. Jesus told some of them, who were of the seed of abraham according to the flesh in Jn 8:37, that they had the devil as their Father, and not God Jn 8:42-44
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
So the Promise in Matt 1:21 is to save God's People, which puts a limit on who He came to save. His People BTW are all those Chosen in Him Eph 1:4175
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Matt 1:21
21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins
Notice, His People and not all people without exception. His People, and not all ethnic jews, for all ethnic jews are not His People. Jesus told some of them, who were of the seed of abraham according to the flesh in Jn 8:37, that they had the devil as their Father, and not God Jn 8:42-44
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
So the Promise in Matt 1:21 is to save God's People, which puts a limit on who He came to save. His People BTW are all those Chosen in Him Eph 1:4175
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Lol, you really like dancing around the implications of your theology. At least the hyper Calvinists are honest enough to admit the obvious. You can't have one without the other. I can't choose some people to pull out of the fire without damning the ones I ignore to death in the flames.
No to your personal comment.
Scriptures teach that Adam sinned and so all that are in him, so that all are made sinners. For this reason, judgment had come to them all and are all condemned to death, for the wages of sin is death. As scriptures say, in Adam all die. Why that is so, does that have anything to do with God’s election? None.
Now, one can learn in scriptures that God had chosen a people that He makes to be His own people, whom He gives to Jesus Christ to raise up at the last day, and give them life, even eternal life. But such is to many, seems unacceptable for some reason. One is they see that as being unfair, unjust, and unrighteous of God to do. Obviously, for them, human reasoning is the basis of what is truth and what is not, what is fair, just and righteous, rather than taking the words of God in scriptures as the basis of what is truth and what is fair, just and righteous. They are convinced by their human reasoning that such would be unfair, unjust, and unrighteous of God to choose a people and not choose all.
Well, faith have given me the power to believe in God, so that I am able to believe His words in scriptures, even of things that seems to go against my human reasoning. That is the reason why I am able to believe the message of the cross, the miracles such as dead raised back to life, water turning into wine, the walking on water, the ten plagues of Egypt, and so on.
Tong
R2361
Yes. However, what Jesus said in v.39 is concerning God’s will and not man’s will. It is concerning the Father’s will for the Son to do and not for man to do. Now, the question was, is there any one will of the Father that He commanded of Jesus to do that Jesus had not done or will not be able to do?
Tong
R2362
You are creating a false problem.
40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
The condition for being raised up is explained after verse you quoted. The Father only desires that those who meet this condition are raised up.
It's amazing that everyone who thinks God just chooses some individuals also thinks they are those individuals.
If you are correct, then chances are, you were not among the few chosen.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
What is amazing is how few people actually BELIEVE John 10.
[John 10:24-30 NKJV]
24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, "How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly." 25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. 26 "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of My Father's hand. 30 "I and [My] Father are one."
Jesus’ sheep are given to Jesus by God the Father.
Jesus knows His sheep.
Jesus’ sheep hear and follow and receive eternal life.
Those who are not Jesus’ sheep hear and see but do not believe BECAUSE they are not Jesus’ sheep.
Jesus’ sheep are the “chosen” (by the Father).
Jesus’ sheep are those “elected” (to eternal life).
If you are not one of the chosen/elect, then you would hear and see, but you would not believe.
If you hear and see and believe, then you ARE one of Jesus’ sheep ... the chosen and elect of God.
Why is it so hard to believe Jesus?
Why is it so hard to believe John 10?
Look at Acts 2 and see the exact same story repeated. A great miracle witnessed by many. Some all saw and heard. Some (Jesus’ sheep drawn by the Father) were pierced to the heart. Others (not Jesus’ sheep and not drawn by the Father) mocked that the Saints were drunk.
First the answer to the question “is there any one will of the Father that He commanded of Jesus to do that Jesus had not done or will not be able to do?” is NONE. Is that not true? How could truth be a problem?
Now, let’s go to verse 40. It is clear, Jesus said “the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life,”. This speaks of the will of the Father concerning those who sees the son and believes in Him. It’s basically the same as what He told us in v.39.
At this point let me take you back to verse 37. In v.37, Jesus tells us about those the Father had given Him in v.39, saying “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me”. Now what does Jesus meant in saying “will come to Me”? As per context, it is another way of saying “will believe in Him”. It does not mean going to Jesus and seeing Him. So those whom that Father has given to the Son, Jesus in effect is telling us, that they will believe in Him. Now considering v.65 where Jesus said “no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father“, it means that the coming to Jesus or the believing in Jesus is something no one could do, unless it has been granted to him by the Father.
Having said that, we go back to v.40. We can now tell who the “everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him” refers to them whom the Father had given to the Son in v.39.
Now the question is, did the Father give them to the Son to raise up at the last day because they believe, or did they believe in Him because the Father has given them to the Son? Clearly, it is the latter.
Tong
R2364
If what you say there in your last statement concerning my salvation is any consolation to you, you can have that.
Those God had chosen believes in Him and in the one He sent, Jesus Christ. So, if one believe in Him and in Jesus Christ, It only means that he was chosen. I do. Do you?
<<<It's amazing that everyone who thinks God just chooses some individuals also thinks they are those individuals.>>>
You are amazed by what perhaps others teach. For that is not anything that I say nor is that my view.
Tong
R2365
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Really? You don't believe that you were chosen? Of course, you do. And this is where OSAS rears it's ugly head. If you later renounce your belief in Christ, people who believe as you do will have to conclude you were never saved. But, you sure thought you were saved, so the truth is, you don't know if you are chosen or if you just are deceived.
I’d like to draw our attention to the CONTEXT clue given in verse 38.
Everyone whom my Father gives me will come to me. I will never turn away anyone who comes to me, 38 because I have come down from heaven to do not my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And it is the will of him who sent me that I should not lose any of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them all to life on the last day. (John 6:37-39, emphasis added)
Jesus is clearly speaking contextually of what is happening while he is “down from heaven.” While on earth God has clearly sent Christ to accomplish a specific part of His redemptive will. Is that will to be a great evangelist, like Peter in Acts 2, and win thousands to faith? Clearly not. God’s will is for Jesus to come “down from heaven” and train a group of pre-selected Israelites (those given to Him to be apostles) to carry the gospel to the rest of the world and establish His Church after He is raised up (John 12:32; Mt. 28:19).
Jesus, while here on earth in the flesh, is speaking to Israel by means of parables, and they are, generally speaking in spirit of stupor, and he's using provoking language, while only drawing to himself (while on earth) a remnant of Israelite messengers (to carry out the purpose for which Israel was elected from the beginning: to bring the light to the rest of the world – Gen. 12:3; Rom. 3:2).
In other words, Jesus’ audience in John 6 is made up of his apostles from Israel and the already calloused Israelites.
The reason his audience walks away is not because God rejected them from before the foundation of the earth, as Calvinism presumes.
God has consistently expressed his desire for the repentance and faith of the Israelite people (Mt. 23:37; Rom. 10:31; Ezk 18:30-31; 2 Peter 3:9, 1 Tim. 2:4, etc). They are walking away because God has sealed them over in their already rebellious condition for a time in order to accomplish His redemptive plan, as was prophesied (Acts 2:23). Israel is not rejecting God because God rejected them!
Is the intent of John 6 to tell us the narrative of Jesus’ provoking Israel in their hardened unbelief while drawing out for himself a remnant of messengers to take the gospel into all the world, drawing all to himself, after he is raised up?
When I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to me. – John 12:32
Yes, no one can come to Christ unless they are drawn by his truth. As Paul states, “How can they believe in one whom they have not heard?” But one must understand that the Jews of that day were “seeing but not perceiving” because of their being temporarily blinded by God (John 12:39-41), not because of a innate disabled nature due to the Fall.
This was their temporary state until the powerful and enabling truth of the gospel is completed in Christ’s resurrection and He is lifted up that He sends that gospel to be proclaimed in all the earth, thus drawing “all men to himself” (John 12:32).
For this people’s [Israel’s] heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’ “Therefore I want you to know that God’s salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen! (Acts 28:27-28)
Israel has become calloused otherwise they might turn and be healed, but the Gentiles, who have not become calloused, will listen to the message. The means of drawing all men is the gospel and even Calvinists admit that is sent to be proclaimed to every individual. “Faith comes by hearing” and the only reason someone may not “have ears to hear” is if God has blinded them as He did to Israel at that crucial point in history. So, unless you happen to come across someone who is being blinded by God from the truth of the gospel so as to accomplish the redemption of the world through their rebellion, you can assume that the gospel is more than sufficient to enable their response to it’s appeal.
The gospel truth is the means God has appointed to DRAW all men to himself, so preach it boldly and confidently knowing that it is the power of God unto salvation (Rom. 1:16). For ALL men.
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