CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Do you not see that the poet is making a different point? Isn't the poet putting his finger on an aspect of God's nature?
Paul and The Philosophers at Athens
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my best friend since Sep 1983 is a 5 point Calvinist!
I’m a zero point Calvinist: I see no point in being one...
Why do you think the Lord Jesus Christ gave the apostles (and the Church) the command to preach the Gospel to every creature? And why do you think that God now commands all men everywhere to repent? Because the Gospel is THE POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION to those who believe (Rom 1:16).
And everyone may believe since all are invited to partake of the water of life freely. The Gospel + the Holy Spirit are given to open the eyes of the blind. And God does not ARBITRARILY pick and choose either, since that would nullify His invitation to the whole world of humanity to be saved.
So there is no point trying to twist the Scriptures to fit into the Calvinistic mode. Indeed Calvin himself admitted all of the above in his commentaries, then slyly decided to change the narrative to make God into a Calvinistic God. Check out his commentaries for yourself. Not his Institutes but the actual verse-by-verse commentaries.
If this were true then absolutely every Israelite and every Jew would have been automatically saved, without any preconditions. You cannot have it both ways. If salvation is inherited, you need do nothing. However, if salvation is NOT inherited, you must repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Yes, you obviously can have it both ways. Abraham was promised a biological nation, a nation inheriting both the genes and the faith of Abraham. And there is yet a great need to act out the faith that is inherited. It is understood that many are not obedient. They are saved by faith, and not by works. They will be saved as through the fire. But they will be saved because of their choice to believe. They are drawn to God and to His word. If they are weak, God will not damn them for that weakness. But they will lose the reward of feeling good about acting out the love that brings honor to God. We want to please Him!
There are other children of Abraham that are the product of Abraham's lack of faith or the product of the lack of faith inherited from previous forefathers. God is sovereign, and produces the consequent results of our actions. For every action there is a reaction. For every act of faith there is a positive result. For every act of unbelief there is a negative result. It's just that God mitigates the negatives for believers who repent. Those who choose not to repent are choosing after the nature that produced them, which is living independently from God's word.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Aren't we having a discussion here? I thought perhaps we were. Hmm. Did I bring up Calvin? I don't think I did. Did I quote Calvin? I don't think I did that either. Am I defending Calvin or his teaching or his followers? I don't think so.
You didn't answer my questions, which were challenging I admit. I didn't ask you whether or not God opens the eyes of the blind. I stipulated this as a fact. I asked you why God doesn't do this for everyone. I suppose if you had an answer you would have given it.
Let's review a couple of passages.
Ezekiel 36:26-27
Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
Logical implications:
1. During the time of writing, Israel had a heart of stone.
2. God is able to perform a "heart transplant" at any time.
3. God performs the heart transplant when it serves HIS purpose, e.g. when the time comes to "restore my holy name."
4. Being given a new spirit necessarily leads to obedience.
Question: These were God's people according God's own testimony. Why didn't he perform a heart transplant on all of them from the day Moses gathered them at Mt. Sinai? And don't say, "because they were a stubborn people", because that's the point. God could have performed heart surgery on everyone from the very start, creating a nation of obedient, God-loving, God-fearing people. So why didn't he?
And don't say "because God respects free will" because he just admitted that he doesn't. Someday, he will perform heart transplants on those living in Israel against their will. These people will become victims of God's mercy. And if God can do this for those living in Israel, why doesn't he do this for everyone in the world? Didn't Peter say that God wanted everyone to come to repentance? Again, think deeply about the implications of Ezekiel 36:26-27.
Consider what Jesus said about parables. Quoting Isaiah, Jesus says:
Matthew 13:12-14
12 For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,
‘You will keep on hearing, but will not understand;
You will keep on seeing, but will not perceive;
12 For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,
‘You will keep on hearing, but will not understand;
You will keep on seeing, but will not perceive;
Contrary to the Doctrine of Prevenient Grace, God does NOT give everyone the ability to understand the message in order that they might make an informed decision to either believe or reject the gospel. Evidence is pilling up to the contrary. God could have helped Israel to perceive and understand Isaiah's message. But he didn't. Why? (He answers this question in the book of Isaiah.) Jesus knowing God's will for Israel, spoke to the people in parables. Why? To keep the message hidden from those whom God has not chosen to save. Only a select few were granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom. Luke 8:10
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It's been my experience with Enoch that he does not come here for discussions... He has only a mouth with which to speak... but no ears with which to hear. Just saying.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Of course, Paul is quoting the poet favorably, i.e. agreeing with what the poet has said. So Paul expects them and us to understand the implications of what the poet meant. Paul actually gives us a hint.
27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’ 29 Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.
During his discourse, Paul recognizes that due to distance, the Gentile world was at a disadvantage with respect to knowledge concerning Yahweh's will for mankind.* After all, Paul says, it was God's will that people spread out and populate the entire earth. Even so, it was also God's will that they might grope for him and find him, "though He is not far from each one of us." This speaks against the polytheistic view that each region of the earth had a unique and different god to worship. Thought they might have expected Yahweh to be a local God of Israel, the one true God is not far from each and every individual no matter where they live. In fact, "in him we live and move and exist." We can't get closer to God than that. We all live and exist in the mind of God.
Let that sink in for a moment. (Or as my friend used to say, "Put that in your pipe and smoke it."
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*He argues in his epistle to the Ephesians that the Jews were at an advantage because of their close proximity to the prophets. The Gentiles were without God and without knowledge of the Christ, until men such as Paul visited their cities to bring the message of salvation to them.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Sadly... there are a few here who come to speak... and teach... without the desire to listen and learn.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
No. I do NOT affirm the doctrine of limited atonement. You might be surprised as to why.
Well... that's a cliff hanger if I ever heard one... COME on.... you can't just leave us like this... LOL
Then your previous reasoning and arguments are a waste of time because my OP is against the hersey of L
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
It wasn't clear to me. Sorry to waist your time.
Or is that waste?
They say a mind is a terrible thing to waste, or is it a waist is a terrible thing to mind? I can't seem to remember.
the whole point of the OP is to show that the Gospel is freely available to every single human being, because Jesus died for their sins. Maybe it is not clear to you, as you say.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
The doctrine of Limited Atonement is predicated on two "givens"
Given that Jesus' death on the cross paid for sins (satisfaction theory) and
Given that only the elect will be saved,
Then the efficacy of the cross is limited to the elect.
I don't agree with the first premise. The atonement wasn't payment for sins. Jesus didn't die in order to satisfy some kind of moral debt to justice or some kind of offence of God's honor. (St. Anselm)
Paul says that God was working through Christ to reconcile the world to himself. Jesus voluntarily went to the cross in order to demonstrate God's righteousness (Romans 3) and since Jesus obeyed God in that way, God accepted that act as an appeasement of his wrath.
Reconciliation can only take place when both parties agree to end hostilities. It's like God and man were standing back-to-back, when one day, God turned around (so to speak) to face toward mankind. Accepting Jesus death on the cross as appeasement of his wrath is like God turning toward man. This is why John says that Jesus died for the whole world. It isn't as if he paid for the sins of the whole world. Rather he made reconciliation possible for any individual who wants to stop the hostilities to turn toward God with a contrite and honest heart.
Firstly, I do not agree with either nouns ἱλαστήριον (Rom 3.25), and ἱλασμός (1 Jn 2:2), have anything to do with God the Father being "appeased" by the Death of Jesus Christ, as though both Persons in the Godhead were in some conflict with each other. Both are used in the LXX for "sin offerings, sacrifice", which I believe is what these two passages mean. Just like ἀντίλυτρον in 1 Tim 2:6, etc, which has nothing to do with any "ransom payment" being made to the Father, for the release of sinners, which some, like Augustine (and others) rather foolishly said was paid to the devil!
Secondly, I believe that the Death of Jesus Christ was "potential", and not "actual".
Thirdly, the ONLY Biblical Teaching of the Death of Jesus Christ, is Penal Substitution, whereby a sinner is Justified by His Death, upon their confessions of sins, Jesus' Righteousness is "Imputed" to the sinner.
Fourthy, you say, "It isn't as if he paid for the sins of the whole world". Which is error, because if Jesus Christ did not "purchase" by His blood, ALL of the sins of the entire human race, then no sinner can ever be saved! Rev 5:9 says, "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation". "Redeemed" is in the Greek, "ἀγοράζω", which is "to buy, purchase", as Paul tells is in 1 Cor. 6:20; 7:23.
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