Paul and The Philosophers at Athens

[CadyandZoe]

Calvinism is one of my OFF topics. LOL

What is an OFF topic? If this is a topic we ignore, then my OFF topic is social security. Zoe want's me to apply but I guess I am just too stubborn at the moment. She knows, however, that eventually I will give in to reality. (smile)

 

[Addy]

What is an OFF topic? If this is a topic we ignore, then my OFF topic is social security. Zoe want's me to apply but I guess I am just too stubborn at the moment. She knows, however, that eventually I will give in to reality. (smile)

An off topic is one that raises one's blood pressure to ghastly highs unnecessarily... LOL
Ignoring can be substituted however OFF topics have more emotion to them.
Being from Canada I have no idea what social security is... HA HA @Zoe's wisdom of allowing the old fool to come to his senses... LOL

 

[Addy]

@CadyandZoe I have read your posts on this thread and besides the fact that they are WAY over my head due to the deep study of scriptures... I think I understood a little something that resembles throwing the baby out with the bath water ( which I am extremely guilty of in many instances)... The Calvinists do hit the nail right on the head when it comes to the SOVEREIGNTY of GOD.... something that many denominations fail to teach.

You have noted that I think very differently than many... I believe it is my simplicity in how I see and believe. I have a child-like faith that simply believes I am LOVED and God will finish His work in me because HE SAID SO... lol

There is so much that I do NOT understand about God's ways... they are marvellously mysterious... Things like pre-destination and fore-knowledge work hand in hand... I can't explain it but to state that God has not ORDAINED and ENSURED that certain events take place would be a bit assumptive in my opinion. Things like choosing the Virgin Mary to give birth to Christ... I do believe Mary was hand chosen... I also believe she could have said NO... and God would have chosen someone else.
It all weaves together in a breath-taking way.

I think too many Christians try to explain the mysteries that simply cannot be explained.

This I know... GOD is AMAZING... HE is ALL MIGHTY... ALL SEEING.. .ALL KNOWING... MOST GRACIOUS... FILLED with MERCY and GRACE above understanding... and HE is PATIENT.... Isn't it all so GLORIOUS... and Aren't we all so BLESSED to be His children?

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

The talk is concerned with the nature of God and how to make sense of the Bible's revelation that he creates everything that exists including history. In my studies, I have come to realize that in order to evaluate this information, we need a different set of criteria. As I said in my previous post, it is impossible to evaluate the actions of a transcendent creator with the criteria of our plane of reality. All of your questions in this post suffer from a typical category mistake we often make, attempting to understand the nature of a transcendent creator, given rules and principles common to creatures.

It appears to me that you want to argue with Reformed theology, which is actually poor philosophy as you can tell. The objections you raised in this post and your previous post, get at the philosophical weaknesses of Reformed theology. Nonetheless, Reformed theology, though bad philosophy gives proper attention to those Biblical passages that address the nature of God as the creator. Your objections, though valid critique of Reformed philosophy, are empty with regard to such passages. The Bible teaches divine determinism. Just because Reformers are unable to explain it using rock solid philosophical arguments, doesn't mean God is not a divine determinist. We must be cautious to avoid erasing God's revelation of himself while we are in the process of poking holes in Reformed theology.

Throughout history, God has revealed his nature in stages and steps. For instance, consider Exodus 6:3 where the Lord speaks to Moses about Abraham.

Exodus 6:3
and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name, [Yahweh], I did not make Myself known to them.

Names are intended to convey a person's most significant characteristic. Abraham knew the Lord as "God almighty", which means "the strongest and most powerful god known to man." The name "Yahweh", however, conveys the idea that God is not only the strongest most potent god among the pantheon; he is a transcendent being. Earlier in Exodus 3:15, God partly explains the meaning of his name in terms of his eternal nature. "This [name] is my memorial to you from generation to generation", he says.

from NET Bible notes:

In that place God called Moses to this task and explained the significance of the name “Yahweh” by the enigmatic expression “I am that I am.” “I am” (אֶהְיֶה, ʾehyeh) is not a name; “Yahweh” is. But the explanation of the name with this sentence indicates that Yahweh is the one who is always there, and that guarantees the future, for everything he does is consistent with his nature. He is eternal, never changing; he remains. Now, in Exodus 6, the meaning of the name “Yahweh” will be more fully unfolded.​

In other words, as each generation of believers comes along, God reveals more about himself and his nature. Abraham knew God by his name "El Shaddai", which means "God almighty", but Moses knew God as "Yawweh" which means "I am that I am" or "He who is" God is not only THE supreme being in our reality, he is THE supreme being in every reality because he is the self-existent creator of everything that exists including history. John 1:3, Hebrews 1:2

In Hebrews 1:2, Paul asserts that God created "the world", but the Greek word is actually "aion", elsewhere translated "age." Paul not only believes that God created the "stuff" of this world, he also created the ages of this world, that is, God orchestrates history.

From this we understand that history not only moves according to a plan, it has a good purpose. But remember, in order to understand and evaluate the transcendent nature of God, we need to use criteria appropriate for that reality. Your objections aren't valid because the rules and logic of God-as-transcendent-being are different than the rules and logic associated with God-as-almighty-God. The strongest god in the pantheon would need to use coercion, force, and armies in order to establish his will. The transcendent God merely speaks things into existence.

What is harder to say, "let there be an individual who believes in my son" or "let there be light"?


For further research, read Jack Crabtree's book "The Most Real Being: a defense of divine determinism."
https://www.amazon.com/Most-Real-Being-Philosophical-Determinism/dp/0974691410

Reformed theology as it is called, on the Bible Doctrine of Salvation, is very clear to those who want to know what the Bible actually says, very much in error. There are a number of verses that plainly assert that Jesus died for the entire human race, which have been perverted by Reformed theology, so as to distort what they Teach

 

[Addy]

Reformed theology as it is called, on the Bible Doctrine of Salvation, is very clear to those who want to know what the Bible actually says, very much in error. There are a number of verses that plainly assert that Jesus died for the entire human race, which have been perverted by Reformed theology, so as to distort what they Teach

This is true...

 

[amadeus]

An off topic is one that raises one's blood pressure to ghastly highs unnecessarily... LOL
Ignoring can be substituted however OFF topics have more emotion to them.
Being from Canada I have no idea what social security is... HA HA @Zoe's wisdom of allowing the old fool to come to his senses... LOL

Social Security is the federal retirement system in the USA. I worked for them until I took early retirement myself in the year 2000.

 

[Randy Kluth]

your theology is all mixed up!

That's just an expression of frustration and does not address any of the issues. We could be here all day saying every position we disagree with is "all mixed up." But that doesn't make for a worthwhile discussion, does it?

 

[Addy]

Social Security is the federal retirement system in the USA. I worked for them until I took early retirement myself in the year 2000.

Oh so Cady wants to remain YOUNG... by not applying... I think here in Canada we call it the Old Age Security Pension.

 

[amadeus]

Oh so Cady wants to remain YOUNG... by not applying... I think here in Canada we call it the Old Age Security Pension.

Right I remember when I was still working periodically I would get involved when people qualified under both systems, Canadian and US. Less frequently it also occurred with other nations who had Retirement systems and people who had worked under the two systems.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

This was a city that was full of idol worship, which caused Paul’s spirit to be provoked within him. He immediately began by sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ and His Resurrection (because he preached to them Jesus and the Resurrection, v.18). In response to the inscription, “To an Unknown god”, Paul used this to tell them about the One True God of the Holy Bible, and the real Hope that there is for all sinners, in the Lord Jesus Christ.

In verses 26-27, Paul tells these:

“And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us”

Paul tells these that they “should seek the Lord”. That is, ζητέω, to “seek after, desire, investigate, to feel the want of”. Then we have the interesting Greek word, “ψηλαφάω”, used, which means, “feel or grope about to find a thing, like a blind man”. Why all of this, if sinners have been “elected to salvation”, and are meant to DO nothing? This is what the Lord Jesus says in Luke 14:24, “Make every effort (strive) to enter through the narrow door, because I tell you, many will try to enter and won’t be able”. If the Reformed/Calvinistic teaching is Biblical, then these passages in the Bible will not be there!

Paul goes on to tell these,

“Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, “because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by braising Him from the dead.” (30-31)

Paul addresses these words to all those who were listening to him, not some select few, as some wrongly teach. God, says Paul, now demands that ALL humans EVERYWHERE must repent of their sins, because ALL will face the Lord for Judgement some day.

We are told in verse 32, that “some mocked” at the preaching of Paul, and others told him they would hear him again. And some men and women “joined him and believed”, the Gospel. In chapter 28 we read of the encounter that Paul had with some Jews, where it says, “And some believed by the things which were spoken, and some disbelieved.” (24). Again, it is clear from what the Bible says, that a sinner who hears the Gospel Message, might “believe” in what is preached, while others are not interested. They have a choice, not as some falsely teach, that God chooses their salvation for them! He also “repents and believes” on their behalf! These are perversions of the Gospel Message.

As with the people of Nineveh, who were very wicked and caused great harm to the Jews at that time, yet God in His Great Mercy and Compassion and Love, sent the Prophet Jonah to tell them the Great News of their salvation! Likewise, here in Acts 17, God saws these wretched, lost people who were “given to idol” worship, and sent the Apostle Paul with the Gospel of Hope, so that these could also “repent and believe”, and have eternal life. However, there are always some moaners, like in the time or Jonah, and now with the so called “Reformed”, who see that Greatness of God’s Salvation for the entire human race, do, like Jonah did, say to the Lord at least in their hearts:

“But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he became angry. So he prayed to the LORD, and said, “Ah, LORD, was not this what I said when I was still in my country? Therefore I fled previously to Tarshish; for I know that You are a gracious and merciful God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, One who relents from doing harm. “Therefore now, O LORD, please take my life from me, for bit is better or me to die than to live!” (Jonah 4:1-3)

This so much describes the “Reformed/Calvinist”, who always try to find verses that don’t exist in the Bible, for their favorite flower, the TULIP!

Well you suck at reading the minds of what you call a "calvinist" not all "5 pointers" are of a reformed theology.

but what you call calvinism (the 5 points /tulip) are simply the biblical standard. We preach the gospel to all, we invite all, we ask people to taste and see the Lord is good. I don't know who is or is not the elect. I don't know who is predestined and who isn'T. So I preach th egospel to all and let God take those who belong to HIm. We are commanded to preach to all! To some we are a scent to life, and to the lost we are a scent to condemnation and death.

The difference in evangelism is attitude and foundation. Arminist holders go out and preach the gospel in hopes of turning weeds to wheat or goats to sheep. Teh "Calvinist" goes out, preaches the gospel to all, to bring in the wheat and find the lost sheep!

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

We preach the gospel to all, we invite all

you INVITE all for what exactly? IF, as your theology says, that Jesus died only for the elect, then an invitation to ALL the world without exception on this basis, is a FALSE one.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

you INVITE all for what exactly? IF, as your theology says, that Jesus died only for the elect, then an invitation to ALL the world without exception on this basis, is a FALSE one.

Well that is not what my theology says first of all.

Jesus died for al mens sins, thereby negating any other person or belief to remove the penalty of sin!

You can call it false if you want to, I call it obeying my Savior. As I have already written, No on eknows who among th elost is a stalk of wheat amidst the weeds or a sheep amongst the goats save God!

Jesus commands to go out and preach the gospel, He will bring in those whom He foreknew, those He predestined, and those He chose before the foundation of the world.

Even you in believing you can turn weeds to wheat know that when you preach th egospel to the lost the majority will reject it. Do you think you are needed to convince people that trusting Jesus is right? do you think your pleading and tears will win the soul? I plead, I weep, and I pray for the lost for that is what is commanded of us. How god uses it all He didn't explain, so I do it cuz He told us to.

JOhnathan Edwards preached a sermon called "sinners in the hands of an angry God" and hundreds came to christ! He read His sermon and did so in a very monotonous tone. It is the Gospel that will save th soul that God chooses not us!

You place too much sovereignty in the hands of men and not enough in th ehands of god!

YTOu also forget that God is under no obligation whatsoever to save anyone! He could have chosen to let all of us be born and go to the lake of fire and He still would have been perfectly just in doing so.

But the fact that God chooses those who will be born again is shown in His Word explicitly and implicitly over and over again.

 

[Enoch111]

God predetermined children for himself, giving them the ability to procreate and to participate in producing the children God predestined for Himself.

1. No one inherits salvation, so this is nonsensical. In fact the Bible clearly shows righteous fathers producing wicked sons, and wicked fathers producing righteous sons.

2. No one merits salvation, since it is purely by grace through faith.

3. No one is predestinated for salvation, since God gives absolutely every human being the command to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

When you come right down to it, and are willing to call a spade a spade, Five Point Calvinism (TULIP) is a WICKED PERVERSION of the true Gospel. And no amount of fancy lingo will change that.

To be fair, not all Reformed Theology is false. Only that which pertains to salvation. Just like all SDA theology is not false.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Reformed theology as it is called, on the Bible Doctrine of Salvation, is very clear to those who want to know what the Bible actually says, very much in error. There are a number of verses that plainly assert that Jesus died for the entire human race, which have been perverted by Reformed theology, so as to distort what they Teach

Okay, I get it. You want to argue against 5-point Calvinists. If that is your thing, well have fun.

I'm not a 5-point Calvinists and my arguments weren't based on that theology. I thought, though, that perhaps you read me say that I didn't affirm the doctrine of limited atonement. My mistake.

You opened the thread with a passage from Acts. In that passage, Paul favorably quotes a Greek Poet who said that "in him we live and move and have our being. What does that mean to you?

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Okay, I get it. You want to argue against 5-point Calvinists. If that is your thing, well have fun.

I'm not a 5-point Calvinists and my arguments weren't based on that theology. I thought, though, that perhaps you read me say that I didn't affirm the doctrine of limited atonement. My mistake.

You opened the thread with a passage from Acts. In that passage, Paul favorably quotes a Greek Poet who said that "in him we live and move and have our being. What does that mean to you?

The God of the Bible is the Creator of the universe and gives life to all. Apart from Him there is no life

 

[CadyandZoe]

Oh so Cady wants to remain YOUNG... by not applying... I think here in Canada we call it the Old Age Security Pension.

I act like I am not worried about my age, but perhaps I am just good at hiding it? I was amused, though, when Zoe was offended at the clerk, who automatically gave her the senior discount. (smile)

 

[Randy Kluth]

1. No one inherits salvation, so this is nonsensical. In fact the Bible clearly shows righteous fathers producing wicked sons, and wicked fathers producing righteous sons.

Abraham was promised a *biological nation.* This is a *faith inheritance.* And yes, it does lead to salvation through heredity. This does not obliviate the need for each individual to accept Christ for himself.

So there is nothing "nonsensical" about this. We all expect that when we live by faith God will give us children of faith. I agree--this is not guaranteed. God is sovereign. But generally, He does wish for us to bring into the world children of faith. You can see this in real life just by examining exemplary families of faith.

2. No one merits salvation, since it is purely by grace through faith.

I quite agree. However, this has nothing to do with inheriting faith. If you inherit faith, one still has a need to embrace that faith through the grace of Christ.

3. No one is predestinated for salvation, since God gives absolutely every human being the command to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

On the contrary, we read that God has counted, in advance, all of the children He wanted, just as He has counted, in advance, all of the stars in the sky, all of the grains of sand on the seashore.

Jesus asked the question, "Who planted these weeds in my field?" The answer was that Satan's work caused an *addition* to the original number that God predestined.

God can never fail to do what He set out to do. Those He chose to have as children, He will have as children. This is not predicated on our success or failure. All of those God chose to be His children will be His children, for better or for worse. They may succeed in life, or fail. But they will be His children...by grace!

When you come right down to it, and are willing to call a spade a spade, Five Point Calvinism (TULIP) is a WICKED PERVERSION of the true Gospel. And no amount of fancy lingo will change that.

I resent your attitude. Calvin was a great and holy man of God. Whether or not you agree with every doctrine, he was profoundly Christian, and viewed as such by millions throughout history. Denigrating other Christians who have lived exemplary lives is in itself not a good Christian trait.

I don't care if you don't believe in "Calvinism." But denigrating someone as "evil" is a little over the pale, don't you think?

To be fair, not all Reformed Theology is false. Only that which pertains to salvation. Just like all SDA theology is not false.

Okay, I read this last. Thank you! And also, thanks for responding, unlike the original poster, who made some meaningless quip.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The God of the Bible is the Creator of the universe and gives life to all. Apart from Him there is no life

Couldn't he do that and remain apart from us? Why does the poet place us inside of God?

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Couldn't he do that and remain apart from us? Why does the poet place us inside of God?

God is the source of all life

 

[CadyandZoe]

1. No one inherits salvation, so this is nonsensical. In fact the Bible clearly shows righteous fathers producing wicked sons, and wicked fathers producing righteous sons.

Paul says that the adopted sons inherit salvation. Ephesians 1, Romans 8, Galatians 4

2. No one merits salvation, since it is purely by grace through faith.

You say that like you mean it. Do you? Would it be unjust for God to withhold salvation from those who have faith and believe the gospel? If someone is smart enough, wise enough, or lucky enough to believe the gospel, don't they deserve to be saved?

Let me put a finer point on it. Salvation by grace through faith is commonly understood within a common narrative. A person hears the call of the Evangelist, he comes forward, he prays the sinners prayer, he becomes a disciple of Christ, he gets baptized, and he becomes a member of a church. He is honest, humble, contrite and penitent. Bottom line: he has met all the conditions of salvation, and having met all the conditions isn't God obligated to save that person? Isn't God morally compelled to save that person, just as an employer is morally compelled to pay an employee for the work he or she has performed?

If salvation is akin to a legal contract or a binding covenant, then how do you say it is by Grace?

3. No one is predestinated for salvation, since God gives absolutely every human being the command to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Does God ever circumcised the hearts of individuals after he has opened their eyes and softened their hearts? Doesn't Peter say that God wishes that all come to repentance and be saved? Since the scriptures can't be broken, then surely we have a dilemma. In your view, if God wishes that all come to saving faith, then why doesn't God open the eyes of everyone? Why doesn't he soften the hearts of everyone; why doesn't he circumcised the hearts of everyone?