Once Saved Always Saved

[Ferris Bueller]

This passage is saying, You have become a partaker of Christ IF this other condition true.

That's what it says. But where does it say the condition for having partaken of Christ does not end and can not end?

And I hear it coming, but I'm going to rephrase for effect . . .

"Forget about the actual reading of the passage! I say what's important and what's not, and what's important is that you don't think Jesus will keep you safe!"

That's what I see in your words.

I am just reading it for what it says. You have the effect of the past completed action of being made a partaker of Christ up to the present IF you hold firmly, even to the end, the conviction you had in the beginning. See, you can't remain a partaker of Christ if you don't continue to satisfy the condition that made you a partaker of Christ. Perfect tense does not mean the effect of an action never ends. It means it continues up to the present. And in this case, it continues up to the present IF you hold firmly the confidence you had at first.

But let's not be distracted by the question of if a real believer can ever stop satisfying the condition of continuing to believe. The important point is that he is satisfying that condition. That's true in both, osas, and anti-osas.

 

[marks]

Anti-osas is in complete agreement with these promises. It doesn't negate them at all. These are great and precious promises for believers. That's why we are exhorted to keep believing.

I'm sorry?

Try reading those verses again! You would have to rewrite each one to be in accord to your teaching.

Tomorrow I'll have more time, and will take them one by one with you.

Here's one . . .

Philippians 3:20-21 KJV
20) For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21) Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Do you think you may stop believing and become spiritually dead again? Revert back to the man born of Adam?

Then you cannot in all genuineness say that Jesus SHALL change your vile body to be like His. You'd have to say He Might. Maybe! With all the uncertainty of your faith. Maybe I hope He might perhaps change my body to be like His, IF IF IF IF I make it!

What I believe is this.

My conversation is in heaven (where we live), and from heaven I'm looking for my Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ. I believe He shall (no word games there, He actually shall) change my vile body to be fashioned like His glorious body. He'll do what with the same working by which He is able to subdue EVERYTHING to Himself.

Much love!

 

[marks]

It won't work out well for you if you stop believing; even if it is your opinion that you can stop believing and you will still be saved.

For, God's truth is not dependent on what you may or may not believe in.

No, I'm saying, if you are depending on your faithfulness to God, I do wish you well. You will need it.

"stop believing and still be saved", what a Laugh! How many people have tried putting those words in my mouth! I'd rather you respond to me regarding what I have written, instead of what I haven't.

What child of God EVER stopped believing? Discouraged, sure!

Having been born of God, do you stop believing He is your Father? Does anyone stop believing they were born from their mother?

Much love!

 

[marks]

I am just reading it for what it says. Y

No, you aren't.

Either you've become a partaker or not. If you have, you hold your confidence firm to the end.

I don't see how you have any confidence now, knowing your faith could end at any time.

Much love!

 

[justbyfaith]

21) Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Do you think you may stop believing and become spiritually dead again? Revert back to the man born of Adam?

Then you cannot in all genuineness say that Jesus SHALL change your vile body to be like His. You'd have to say He Might. Maybe! With all the uncertainty of your faith. Maybe I hope He might perhaps change my body to be like His, IF IF IF IF I make it!

You are not considering the concept that the verse in question may not apply to you.

As @Truther might say, you could be robbing the saints of their mail.

"stop believing and still be saved", what a Laugh! How many people have tried putting those words in my mouth!

I am in agreement with you that if someone has a genuine faith, they will never cease to have faith.

I'd rather you respond to me regarding what I have written, instead of what I haven't.

You are not the only one we are dealing with on these boards. There are those who actually purport the doctrine that a person can stop believing and still be saved. If your statements seem to support that doctrine, we will address them as such.

Having been born of God, do you stop believing He is your Father? Does anyone stop believing they were born from their mother?

The people in Luke 8:12 couldn't believe and be saved. In Luke 8:13, they believed for a while (and were saved thereby), but in time of temptation fell away (they stopped believing). They were no longer saved.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
I consider that enablement you say there is the making alive of one who is in a state of death pertaining to the things of the Spirit of God.

This shows forth that you have a Calvinistic bent in your theology.

The reality is that we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand (Romans 5:1-2). And therefore, since a person has spiritual life in them through the grace of the Lord, therefore they are not going to have that grace and spiritual life in them unless they first have faith in Jesus.

Calvinistic? Perhaps. That is purely coincidental. It shows that calvinist may have this view of the scriptures that I listen to. I think you too have calvinistic bent in that you too see Jesus Christ as the savior as well as they do. But it does not mean you follow Calvin or do you?

Who are the “we” who have access to grace? Is it not those who are saved? Those who received faith and have faith? And who are those who have faith, but those who were made alive so that they see and hear?

Tong
R2682

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
<<<If the fact that he is saved is manifested by the fact that he continues in the faith, that would indicate that if he does not continue, he is not saved; because the fact that he did not continue manifests the fact that he is not saved.>>>

Finally, you got it.

And that is different to saying that if he does not continue, he is no longer saved.

It is saying that he was never saved. Therefore if anyone does not continue, he is not saved.

Thus it is important to not divide over whether the person has lost his salvation or whether he was never saved in the first place; but to focus on the fact that if he doesn't continue in the faith, he isn't saved.

And therefore, it is also important to exhort the believer to continue in the faith. Hebrews 3:12-13 tells us that a person can be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin and depart from the Lord because of an evil heart of unbelief. This would indicate that they were with the Lord in some way, shape, or form.

What you said and what you say here is clear, that if anyone does not continue, he is not saved. It is different from saying that he is no longer saved. Unless you want to contradict what you said.

No one is saying that we should not focus on one truth nor we are divisive. So putting that up here is nothing but a diversion or a way to change focus, from the truth that had just been put out in the open.

Tong
R2683

 

[Tong2020]

You won't know if you are a true believer until you get to the end. So how can you say for sure you are saved since you haven't got to the end yet to see if your believing lasted? You might still be shown to be nothing more than the rocky soil that Jesus talked about in the parable of the sower. You won't know until you get to the end to see if you lasted. And so you can't know for sure you are really saved.

In your other post you just claimed you are saved. And here you seem to argue agains that.

Anyway, it is clear that while you are saved, you are not really sure that you are truly saved. That just shows what faith it is you have. Let me share to you what scriptures says about the faith spoken of those who are saved.

Heb.11:1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

What do you see there? Do you see uncertainty or certainty with regards those that you do not see? Like in this case, your end, of you will have continued to the end or not.

It’s sad to know that you aren’t sure whether you are truly saved or not. The only consolation is that, in your belief, there will be a time that you will be sure, at the end of your days.

This is one reason why we strive to know the many truths revealed by God to us, His people. To have peace, love, joy, and rest in Him.

@marks

Tong
R2684

 

[Tong2020]

marks said: ↑
That's what I mean. You don't know. I find that sad, and worse.

But you don't either. But the difference between me and you is I know I'm saved right now, because I am trusting Christ right now. You can't know that in your theology because you can't know that the faith you have today is for real until it gets tested to the very end. You are the supremely sad one, not me.

And why not? Don’t you have faith? I thought you said you have.

@marks

Tong
R2685

 

[Tong2020]

marks said: ↑
And you continue to hold to this AS IT it were saying you may stop being a partaker. And that's not what it says.

It doesn't say you won't stop believing. Do your homework on the Perfect tense. It does not mean the results of the completed action of being made a partaker of Christ never ends. It means the results of the completed action of being made a partaker of Christ continues up to the present. And that is signified by the fact that you are presently believing. You can't possess the completed act of being a partaker of Christ if you are in unbelief today. You have to have the same faith today that you had when you were made a partaker of Christ in the past to be that same partaker of Christ today. Unbelievers can not remain in the completed state of being made a partaker of Christ. Like I say, do the homework. You'll see.

You won’t if what you have is faith that comes from God. I am not saying that you don’t have that faith. I am only trying to tell you that such faith is one that continues to the end. This faith had been shown to be in the apostles, and well demonstrated in the lives of the martyrs.

@marks

Many seems to be looking more to themselves than to God. That they never stop looking at what they think they must do to be saved or to stay saved or to find security of their salvation. It robs them of the peace, rest and assurance of God, through faith. For they think they could have it any other way, other than through faith.

If only every Christian knows where they now stand, that they have been saved and are saved.

Tong
R2686

 

[Tong2020]

Anti-osas is in complete agreement with these promises. It doesn't negate them at all. These are great and precious promises for believers. That's why we are exhorted to keep believing.

Those who believe that they could lose their salvation only indicates where they are now and what faith they have. Many of such people have it upon their power to keep themselves from not losing their salvation rather than in the power of Him who they claim to have saved them. They have forgotten that they haven’t saved themselves but were save by God and by the power of God. That they were saved at a time that they were weak. That now that they were made strong, having been given power by God, they become arrogant, forgetful, that what they are able to do now, they could not without God. They forget the teaching of Jesus that without God they could do nothing. Nothing, if you know what that means.

@marks

Tong
R2687

 

[Tong2020]

marks said: ↑
Exactly. He who lives and believes in Jesus will never die. Do you believe this?

Most definitely. And therefore, I believe that if I allow sin to become fully-grown in me, it means that I was not alive and believing in Jesus.

<<<it means that I was not alive and believing in Jesus.>>>

Are you not a believer now? When you allow sin to be fully grown in you, is it not now that you are a believer (believing) or an unbeliever (not believing)? It is apparently a misunderstanding and misuse of the passage. So, Read again. This time, read it to find out what Jesus was trying to say to Martha. Read in context.

John 11:23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
24 Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

Ponder on the “though he may die” of v.25. Then go read v.26.

@marks

Tong
R2688

 

[Tong2020]

marks said: ↑
OK, then, and again, I hope that works out well for you!

It won't work out well for you if you stop believing; even if it is your opinion that you can stop believing and you will still be saved.

For, God's truth is not dependent on what you may or may not believe in.

Now that is a strawman for as far as I know @Mark does not have such opinion. Further, I know not one in this board who has that opinion. Do you know any?

Tong
R2689

 

[Tong2020]

That's what it says. But where does it say the condition for having partaken of Christ does not end and can not end?


I am just reading it for what it says. You have the effect of the past completed action of being made a partaker of Christ up to the present IF you hold firmly, even to the end, the conviction you had in the beginning. See, you can't remain a partaker of Christ if you don't continue to satisfy the condition that made you a partaker of Christ. Perfect tense does not mean the effect of an action never ends. It means it continues up to the present. And in this case, it continues up to the present IF you hold firmly the confidence you had at first.

Consider what the passage under consideration says.

Hebrews 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

Now ask yourself this: Are you a partaker of Christ? Are you a partaker of Christ now or not yet until later in the end of your days?

@marks

Tong
R2690

 

[Tong2020]

I am in agreement with you that if someone has a genuine faith, they will never cease to have faith.

Happy to hear you say that. Hold on to that and not forget that.

Tong
R2691

 

[Taken]

It won't work out well for you if you stop believing; even if it is your opinion that you can stop believing and you will still be saved.

Huh.."marks", made no such claim, for you to say, it would not work out well for him.

 

[kcnalp]

So is Biden.

Christians murder babies? Surely you jest.

 

[Taken]

See, you can't remain a partaker of Christ if you don't continue to satisfy the condition that made you a partaker of Christ.

A Saved man; is neither
* Saved by his works,
* Saved by his power,
* Kept Saved by his works,
* Kept Saved by his power.

The Word of God, (called Jesus);
The Son of Man, (called Jesus);
The Son of God, (called Jesus);
Salvation, (called Jesus);
The Power of God, (called Christ)

Luke 19:
[5] And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house.
[9] And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house,

Jesus IS the Salvation.
Jesus OFFERS Salvation.
WHY Salvation IS GIVEN A MAN; IS BECAUSE the man CONFESSES "Heartful" BELIEF IN JESUS.

Rom 10:
[10] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

A man IS GIVEN SALVATION;
"BY" THE POWER OF GOD...WHO IS CHRIST.

Two things Scripture teaches....
TASTING....and EATING
By the GRACE OF GOD...
* Men "showing" AN INTEREST TO LEARN "ABOUT" the Lord GOD (hearing His Word, reading His Word, Discussing, Studying, Asking, Observing others IN Christ)
* ARE given "TASTES" of Gods Truths, Gods Blessings, <---- THOSE UNCOMMITTED, UNSAVED, MEN, ("BY GODS GRACE" ) ARE; PARTAKING IN the Lord God Almighty's UPON them.
* THOSE MEN, ARE; without COMMITMENT, ARE; getting a "TASTE", OF THE BENEFIT, OF a MAN.....WHO Heartfully Commits to the Lord God....and IS MADE...."IN CHRIST", BY the POWER of God, who IS CHRIST.

* It IS; THOSE men, WHO RECEIVE a "TASTE", of the Benefit of PARTAKING IN Gods Blessings..."AND THEN "REJECT" the Lord God"... THAT...has BETRAYED the Son of man.

Mark 14:
[21] The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.

WHY? Because BY GODS GRACE, an unsaved, uncommitted man, WAS GIVEN "without" commitment....A TASTE of Gods Heavenly Gift, and (spit out that Taste), SHAMING the Lord God Almighty, BEFORE men OF and IN the world.

Heb 6:
[6] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Heb 6:
[4] For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[6] If they shall fall away...

TASTING...a unsaved man receives heavenly gifts.

EATING...a man IS SAVED, and KEPT SAVED by the POWER of God.

Matt 26:
[26] And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.

Observation -
Repeatedly unsaved men ARE WARNED...
Experiencing A TASTE, of Gods heavenly gifts, is NOT the fulfillment of Receiving Salvation.
Such men are STILL vunerable to Forfeiting Receiving their Salvation..."IF" they DO NOT Heartfully COMMIT...EAT, TRUST, HeartFULLY CONFESS...TO WHICH "THEREAFTER", they RECEIVE Salvation, and their Salvation IS KEPT SECURE, By the POWER OF GOD.[/B]

 

[kcnalp]

The Word of God, (called Jesus);

Amen! Jesus is God.

John 1 The Word was God. The Word became flesh ...

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Try reading those verses again! You would have to rewrite each one to be in accord to your teaching.

You think there is only one way to read those. That's why you think I'm rewriting them, but I'm not. I don't have a Osas prejudice that makes me only able to see them one way.