Once Saved Always Saved

[justbyfaith]

I consider that enablement you say there is the making alive of one who is in a state of death pertaining to the things of the Spirit of God.

Tong
R2661

This shows forth that you have a Calvinistic bent in your theology.

The reality is that we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand (Romans 5:1-2). And therefore, since a person has spiritual life in them through the grace of the Lord, therefore they are not going to have that grace and spiritual life in them unless they first have faith in Jesus.

<<<If the fact that he is saved is manifested by the fact that he continues in the faith, that would indicate that if he does not continue, he is not saved; because the fact that he did not continue manifests the fact that he is not saved.>>>

Finally, you got it.

And that is different to saying that if he does not continue, he is no longer saved.

Tong
R2662

It is saying that he was never saved. Therefore if anyone does not continue, he is not saved.

Thus it is important to not divide over whether the person has lost his salvation or whether he was never saved in the first place; but to focus on the fact that if he doesn't continue in the faith, he isn't saved.

And therefore, it is also important to exhort the believer to continue in the faith. Hebrews 3:12-13 tells us that a person can be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin and depart from the Lord because of an evil heart of unbelief. This would indicate that they were with the Lord in some way, shape, or form.

justbyfaith, is here to teach against the Cross.
He is devoted to trying to prove that the blood of Jesus is only as good as a believer's works.
He has no understanding of the Grace of God or of the Blood Atonement.
He preaches water and works, then denies he does it.
"pretzel logic".

I am simply taking into account verses that speak of certain things; which you apparently want to ignore. Romans 11:20-22 tells us that if we don't continue in His goodness, we will be "cut off"; and Luke 8:13 tells us that there are those who "believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away."

How is it they would be saved from sin for a season?

To my understanding, what saves us from sin is being beborn.

Much love!

We re saved by grace through faith; and the Luke 8:13 believer "believes for a while."

While those who are born again cannot be unborn, they can die spiritually (James 1:14-16).

God says that we are "One" with Him.

Jesus was one with the Father (John 10:30); yet the Father forsook Him (Matthew 27:46).

 

[Ferris Bueller]

That's what I mean. You don't know. I find that sad, and worse.

But you don't either. But the difference between me and you is I know I'm saved right now, because I am trusting Christ right now. You can't know that in your theology because you can't know that the faith you have today is for real until it gets tested to the very end. You are the supremely sad one, not me.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

And you continue to hold to this AS IT it were saying you may stop being a partaker. And that's not what it says.

It doesn't say you won't stop believing. Do your homework on the Perfect tense. It does not mean the results of the completed action of being made a partaker of Christ never ends. It means the results of the completed action of being made a partaker of Christ continues up to the present. And that is signified by the fact that you are presently believing. You can't possess the completed act of being a partaker of Christ if you are in unbelief today. You have to have the same faith today that you had when you were made a partaker of Christ in the past to be that same partaker of Christ today. Unbelievers can not remain in the completed state of being made a partaker of Christ. Like I say, do the homework. You'll see.

 

[marks]

Amazing how scriptures have no effect on people.

Amazing.

"Furthermore the LORD spake unto me, saying, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people" (Deuteronomy 9:13)

Indeed.

Are we back to ad hominem arguments?

 

[marks]

But you don't either. But the difference between me and you is I know I'm saved right now, because I am trusting Christ right now. You can't know that in your theology because you can't know that the faith you have today is for real until it gets tested to the very end. You are the supremely sad one, not me.

Lot's of presumption in this paragraph.

And you project onto me your theology. YOU are the who teaches uncertainty. Not me.

1 John 5:13 KJV
13) These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

I wonder how anyone who actually does know God, not just a head knowledge, but who knows Him in the same sense as we mean when we say even casually, I know this guy who . . .

If you have a brother, a sister, you've grown up with them, do you have these disputes back and forth with people, yes, I know my brother Chris. Do you really? What is the proof? Well, I know the guy. We spend time together. We do things together.

There's no uncertainty.

I can put us on the same page together, we both believe we are new creations (I guess). Hm. OK, backing up a bit . . .

Do you believe you've been born from God as an entirely new being, who shares God's nature, having been created patterned after God in righteousness and holiness?

Maybe you have a completely different idea of what salvation is.

Much love!

 

[marks]

You have to have the same faith today that you had when you were made a partaker of Christ in the past to be that same partaker of Christ today.

Look again at the passage.

You have become a partaker of Christ if you keep your confidence to the end.

Ergo,

If you do not keep your confidence to the end, you have not become a partaker of Christ.

There is nothing in the passage about becoming a partaker, and then it stops.

This passage is saying, You have become a partaker of Christ IF this other condition true.

If you don't have believe today, you weren't a partaker then.

And I hear it coming, but I'm going to rephrase for effect . . .

"Forget about the actual reading of the passage! I say what's important and what's not, and what's important is that you don't think Jesus will keep you safe!"

That's what I see in your words.

Much love!

 

[marks]

It doesn't say you won't stop believing.

Nor does it say you can. What is says is that you've become a partaker of Christ if you don't.

It's a "cart/horse" thing.

Keep reading . . .

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

And this,

1 John 3:1-2 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

And this,

John 11:24-26 KJV
24) Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

And this,

2 Corinthians 5:1 KJV
1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

And this,

Philippians 3:20-21 KJV
20) For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21) Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

And this one . . .

Romans 5:1-5 KJV
1) Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2) By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3) And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4) And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5) And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Much love!

 

[justbyfaith]

John 11:24-26 KJV
24) Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

This scripture is to be understood in light of James 1:14-16,

Jas 1:14, But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15, Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Jas 1:16, Do not err, my beloved brethren.

We can conclude from a comparison of these scriptures that if anyone truly lives and believes in Jesus, they will never allow sin to become fully-grown (finished) in their life; because if it were to become fully-grown, it would produce death; and John 11:26 would be null and void.

And therefore James 1:14-16 is in reference to those who have a nominal, shallow, or lukewarm faith (mere mental assent to the tenets of the gospel). They may live; but they don't believe: or they might believe; but they are not alive. If either one of those conditions is not met, then they can die spiritually when sin becomes fully-grown in their life.

 

[marks]

This scripture is to be understood in light of James 1:14-16,

Jas 1:14, But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15, Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Jas 1:16, Do not err, my beloved brethren.

We can conclude from a comparison of these scriptures that if anyone truly lives and believes in Jesus, they will never allow sin to become fully-grown (finished) in their life; because if it were to become fully-grown, it would produce death; and John 11:26 would be null and void.

And therefore James 1:14-16 is in reference to those who have a nominal, shallow, or lukewarm faith (mere mental assent to the tenets of the gospel). They may live; but they don't believe: or they might believe; but they are not alive. If either one of those conditions is not met, then they can die spiritually when sin becomes fully-grown in their life.

One does not negate the other. Both mean exactly what they say.

 

[justbyfaith]

One does not negate the other. Both mean exactly what they say.

Elaborate please.

I think that the fact that sin, when it is fully-grown, brings forth death, means that if it does become fully-grown, that that person was not a recipient of the promise in John 11:26.

They may have thought that they had eternal security because of it; but it turned out that that verse did not apply to them because they allowed sin to become fully-grown in their life.

 

[marks]

He who lives and believes in Jesus shall never die.

If you live, and if you believe in Jesus, you shall never die.

Is anyone out there who is going to come back and say this statement is wrong? Partly wrong? Just a little be wrong?

Or, should we read this and thing, Hey, If I believe in Jesus Now, I won't in the future die?

Because as I read the passage, it's telling me, If I believe in Jesus, now, in this life, I won't, in the future, die.

Hm, is that something we can know? Apparently it is.

Much love!

 

[justbyfaith]

Because as I read the passage, it's telling me, If I believe in Jesus, now, in this life, I won't, in the future, die.

No, it is saying that if I live and believe in Jesus, I will never die.

The verse previous declares that a person can believe in Jesus, though he were dead (yet shall he live).

 

[marks]

Elaborate please.

I think that the fact that sin, when it is fully-grown, brings forth death, means that if it does become fully-grown, that that person was not a recipient of the promise in John 11:26.

They may have thought that they had eternal security because of it; but it turned out that that verse did not apply to them because they allowed sin to become fully-grown in their life.

Sin kills. Jesus gives life. If Jesus gives you life, sin doesn't kill you, or rather, Jesus has beat sin to the punch, by your co-dying with Him. He gives you death, due from our sin, but in a way that we can survive it, like in the Ark. Jesus is our ark.

We die in His death, so we can come out the other side. We come out of the grave sharing His life. Sin kills, and we've died. In Christ.

We sail through death, and now that's out of the way. Yet we are alive! Yet not us, He lives in us. His life has become our life.

So we've passed from death into life. Death can't touch you anymore.

Oh death! Where is you victory? Grave! Where is your sting!

Much love!

 

[marks]

No, it is saying that if I live and believe in Jesus, I will never die.

Exactly. He who lives and believes in Jesus will never die. Do you believe this?

Much love!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Nor does it say you can. What is says is that you've become a partaker of Christ if you don't.

It's a "cart/horse" thing.

Keep reading . . .

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

And this,

1 John 3:1-2 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

And this,

John 11:24-26 KJV
24) Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

And this,

2 Corinthians 5:1 KJV
1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

And this,

Philippians 3:20-21 KJV
20) For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21) Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

And this one . . .

Romans 5:1-5 KJV
1) Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2) By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3) And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4) And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5) And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Much love!

Anti-osas is in complete agreement with these promises. It doesn't negate them at all. These are great and precious promises for believers. That's why we are exhorted to keep believing.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Exactly. He who lives and believes in Jesus will never die. Do you believe this?

Much love!

I do! That's why we should continue to be believers. The promise is for believers. Believers in Jesus are the ones who will never die.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

He who lives and believes in Jesus shall never die.

If you live, and if you believe in Jesus, you shall never die.

Is anyone out there who is going to come back and say this statement is wrong? Partly wrong? Just a little be wrong?

It's 100% true. The promise is for believers. That's why we should keep believing.

 

[marks]

That's why we should keep believing.

OK, then, and again, I hope that works out well for you!

 

[justbyfaith]

Sin kills. Jesus gives life. If Jesus gives you life, sin doesn't kill you, or rather, Jesus has beat sin to the punch, by your co-dying with Him.

Consider the following.

Rom 6:22, But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23, For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The fact that the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord does not nullify the fact that the wages of sin is death. A part of the gift of eternal life has to do with the fact that we are set free from the power of sin; and the end is everlasting life.

So, you see, if we were to allow sin to become fully-grown in us, its wages would indeed be death; but we have been given the gift of eternal life because we have been made free from sin (v.22).

The gift of God to us, eternal life, is the result of the fact that we have been made free from sin; and therefore we will not be receiving the wages of sin.

There is no condemnation for us because we walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit (Romans 8:4); and therefore the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us (Romans 8:4); i.e. we don't sin in violation of the law because we walk according to the Spirit.

Exactly. He who lives and believes in Jesus will never die. Do you believe this?

Most definitely. And therefore, I believe that if I allow sin to become fully-grown in me, it means that I was not alive and believing in Jesus.

 

[justbyfaith]

OK, then, and again, I hope that works out well for you!

It won't work out well for you if you stop believing; even if it is your opinion that you can stop believing and you will still be saved.

For, God's truth is not dependent on what you may or may not believe in.