Once Saved Always Saved

[Wrangler]

That’s with regards fruit beating. It’s pruning.

Tong
2716

Do you hear yourself? If you do not produce fruit, you will be cut from the vine. This means nothing to you!

 

[Wrangler]

The doublemindedness I'm speaking of is that which says, "I know I'm saved, but maybe I won't be."

Discernment. Are you truly unable to differentiate between NOW and LATER?

I know I do not have Covid (NOW) but maybe I’ll get it (LATER)?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

No. Give your exegesis of the passage. Not just how your doctrines lead you to read it. OR, the doctrines you are anti.

What is the difference between exegesis and eisegesis? | GotQuestions.org



View attachment 14248

You assert this can be read in different ways. I assert the text allows only one of those ways.

We have become partakers of Christ if. There is a state of being we either are, or are not, and this state of being is known by what comes next, that is, if we hold our confidence stedfast to the end.

If you hold your confidence stedfast to the end, this means that you have become a partaker in Christ, If you do not, you did not.

The perfect tense just sweetens the pie.

Ignore it if you must. Ignore everything else, and just read this verse for what it is.

Don't insert things it does not say.

Much love!

Did you do the homework on the Perfect tense like I asked you to?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Discernment. Are you truly unable to differentiate between NOW and LATER?

I know I do not have Covid (NOW) but maybe I’ll get it (LATER)?

Which, by the way, is a good use of the Perfect tense. Very good.

Osas claims the Perfect tense of the verb 'do not have' means you'll NEVER get it! When all it means is you 'do not have' up to the present.

 

[marks]

Discernment. Are you truly unable to differentiate between NOW and LATER?

I know I do not have Covid (NOW) but maybe I’ll get it (LATER)?

Well gee . . . this is now . . . This is later . . . this is later still.

:)

I'm a human now. Will I be a human later?

I'm a child of God now. Will I be a child of God later?

What does discernment tell us?

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

How important is it to have this hope?

Much love!

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Ferris B. says: "Like I say, do the homework. You'll see."

The people in Luke 8:12 couldn't believe and be saved. In Luke 8:13, they believed for a while (and were saved thereby), but in time of temptation fell away (they stopped believing). They were no longer saved.

Therefore, the doctrine is "I ONCE knew you, but, now I NO LONGER know you!"
Correct? So, HOW does that reconcile With The Following Biblical Truths?:

(1) CHRIST Has Always Known them That ARE HIS! "SURE Foundation"?
(2 Timothy 2:19a; Ephesians 1:4-6 KJB!)
+
(2) CHRIST Has NEVER Known them That Are NOT HIS!
(Matthew 7:21-23 KJB!)

Just wonderin' about this homework...

Much More in OSAS #4 God Eternal Assurance, found below...

 

[Ferris Bueller]

How important is it to have this hope?

It's everything! That's why we are told to cling to it in faith.....

Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. Hebrews 10:23
​

Our hope is sure, and the One who gives us such a sure hope is faithful to his promise. That's why the writer says to hold unswervingly in faith to so great a hope. But Osas says the sureness of the hope is that you can't lose the things hoped for. I guess it could be summed up this way.......

Osas - Your possession of the hope of the things promised is what is eternal. You will always continue in faith, holding fast to the hope of the things promised.

Anti-Osas - The things themselves that are hoped for is what is eternal. That's why you should continue in faith, holding fast to the hope of the things promised.

It's easy to see that Hebrews teaches the anti-OSAS understanding listed above, not the OSAS understanding. But a OSAS prejudice will keep one from seeing it.

 

[marks]

It's everything! That's why we are told to cling to it in faith.....

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Can you say that you KNOW that when He shall appear, that you will be like Him?

Now we are the sons of God. We know that when He shall appear, we shall be like Him.

Do you have this knowledge?

I don't see how, as you don't know whether you will be saved.

Much love!

 

[justbyfaith]

No one who are in a state of death, rendered dead to God, could see nor hear, more so could have faith, unless they be first made alive.

We have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand (Romans 5:1-2)

Not in my understanding of his posts.

I think that there are a few here who agree with me that the understanding that @Behold is portraying is that if someone falls away, they continue to have salvation.

And of course, @Behold himself can settle the issue if that is not what he is teaching by clarifying to all of us that it is not what he is teaching. But if he did that now, he would be contradicting himself.

 

[marks]

Not in my understanding of his posts.

Not mine either.

Much love!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Can you say that you KNOW that when He shall appear, that you will be like Him?

Now we are the sons of God. We know that when He shall appear, we shall be like Him.

Do you have this knowledge?

I don't see how, as you don't know whether you will be saved.

Much love!

Yes, I have this hope. I have this hope because I believe. The promises are addressed to believers. And so I am holding unswervingly to this hope, in faith, just as the Bible tells us to do.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Not mine either.

post 2661.....

However, if you lose faith, fall away, etc........and you were born again before you did, you are just as saved as the Blood Of Jesus has the power to cleanse you of all sin, including those, and all others..
See, sin was dealt with by God on the Cross, and you denying it, wont change it for me, or for any real believer.
Once you are born again, you are always born again, and how you think or believe, later, has no effect on the NEW BIRTH.

 

[justbyfaith]

Not mine either.

Much love!

Two against two then....at least until you take an honest look at @Behold's post that @Ferris Bueller has brought up in post #3033 (Once Saved Always Saved).

 

[Taken]

I already went over Hebrews 3:14. And I know you read it because I think you replied to it. I'm the one that can acknowledge that a person can read it more than one way. I explained what the failure of the osas way of looking at it is. It only makes sense from the anti-osas view.

Reading Studying Scripture, Requires a FEW BASIC ground rules...which seems to ELUDE most people.

* Introduction, is for Beginners.
* Most want the Understanding BEFORE a Diligent Effort of Delving into the Knowledge.
* All Scripture IS True.
* All Scriputre DOES APPLY to EVERY PERSON.
* Following DOES NOT MEAN "COMMITTED".
* Hearing DOES NOT MEAN "COMMITTED".
* Interested DOES NOT MEAN "COMMITTED".
* Receiving a blessing, DOES NOT MEAN "COMMITTED".
* Receiving "FAITH" (a gift from God), DOES NOT MEAN "COMMITTED".
* WARNINGS "DO NOT" Apply to ALL men.

SCRIPTURE HAS ....
REPEATEDLY in it CORE TEACHING;
An "IF" ... "THEN" Scenario.

THE "IF"... Applies to Particular MEN
(Prophets, Disciples, Israel, Jews, Tribes, Gentiles...
Men who listen, Men who Doubt, Men who Agree, Men who Accept, Men who Ignore, Men who Reject, Men who Deny, Men who Promote Acceptance, Men who Promote Denial...etc.)

ALL Individuals, or Individuals (like minded) who form Groups, to Foster their "IF" application.

THE "THEN" ... IS THE Knowledge of Gods WORD.... specific TO EVERY Individual's...
"IF" choice...and "Groups" of men whose "IF" IS the (same).

The BASIC Core tenant of Gods Word...stems from the KNOWLEDGE from the Beginning of mankind...always Keeping abreast of Gods INTENT "AND" ACTS.
* Gods Chosen First...given Gods WORD...ACCEPTED by the word of their own mouths.
The Highlight... Gods OFFERING;
....His Word.
....His Blessings.
....His Protection.
....His Promises.
....His Requirements, (obedience VIA LAW)
....His Consequences, (failure, punishment)
....His Consequences, (succeed, great status and blessings)
....His INTENT, (they be His SERVANT TEACHERS TO the Whole World of mankind.)
* The FIRST OFFERED......ie., Hebrews.
* The FIRST TO ACCEPT....ie., Hebrews.
* the FIRST to SUCCEED...ie., Hebrews.
* the FIRST to FAIL..........ie., Hebrews.

They were a Designated "GROUP"... Offered "wholly" as a Group. Accepted "wholly" as a Group.
Individually ... we can Observe the "successes" and "failures"...and consequences thereof...Individually and wholly.

*FOLLOW THE HISTORY, "SPECIFIC"...
*TO WHOM..."what" is OFFERED....and "IF".
* TO WHOM...Accepts the OFFERING...AND "THE THEN" result.
AND...."HISTORICALLY"...."WHEN" an OFFERING IS GIVEN, and "WHAT" specifically the "OFFERING", Requires.

An OFFERING of SALVATION IS GIVEN....
Bottom line ...
*The OFFERING IS Because & BY Gods Grace...
*His OFFERING IS Jesus' BODY.
His WORD, gave mankind the NOTICE of Gods Offering of Salvation.
*Receiving OF GODS OFFERING, IS PERMANENT...THUS WARNING to mankind is TO BE SURE you WANT TO AGREE AND ACCEPT Gods OFFERING.
* RECEIVING of Gods OFFERING....
"REQUIRES" A man's:
"HEARTFUL CONFESSION OF BELIEF:
IN GOD, IN Jesus, IN Jesus IS the CHRIST, and was SENT BY GOD".
* A Heartful Confession, EXPRESSLY, Gets Gods ATTENTION, FOR GOD TO MAKE that man CONVERTED.
* THE Conversion, IS A GIft of God, GIVEN a man, BY THE POWER OF GOD, WHO IS CHRIST.
* Tasting Gods blessings, and gifts...IS NOT the Requirement TO Receive Gods Gift of Conversion, which results IN A mans Permanent SALVATION.

* You Present Scriptures THAT DO NOT APPLY to a CONVERTED MAN, (as a means to Support your view, against PERMANENT SALVATION (ie OSAS).

* Most of the NT WAS Specifically orally Spoken BY Jews, TO Jews, and Written FOR Jews. By Jews, to ESTABLISH A New Covenant among Jewish (Tribes of Israel men)....that "THEY" could continue Jesus' SEARCHING out the Lost Jews....that THEY may ACCEPT, AGREE, and Continue TEACHING THE WORLD....just as their Forefathers were established FOR Service unto God.

* EXPRESSLY Jesus taught...JEWS FIRST, (Reinstating THE God of ISRAEL, and Under a NEW Covenant, GODS WORD in the FLESH, to Lead and teach, and "then the rest of the TRIBES of ISRAEL",
AND THEN (As God Chose) A man MIXED in heritage of (JEW and GENTILE), Expressly Skilled in JEWISH LAW "AND" LAWFULLY able to Mingle Among the Gentiles and Speak both Languages...to Introduce THE GENTILES ...
TO THE Jewish God of Abraham, Issac, Jacob, and Tribes of Israel...and The Jewish Gods WORD, (Jesus) and CHRIST Messiah Savior....ie the Servant called Saul (Jewish name/ Gentile name) Paul.

God DIVIDED from the Beginning.
...and DIVIDE among men are Ancient History Revealed.
Jesus EXPRESSLY reiterated the DIVIDE.
...and DIVIDE among men are Historically since Jesus' Day Revealed.

Followers of God....Divided among themselves.
Followers of Jesus...Divided among themselves.

* THE BIG PICTURE of Gods Offering of SALVATION....IMMEDIATLY to be Offered "and Given"....IS TO Establish A DIFFERENT "KIND" of DIVISION...

* Rather than MEN with the varying degrees, amounts of the same FAITH DIVIDING amongst themselves...
* The Lord God IS DIVIDING and ACCOUNTING the DIVISION OF ALL MEN...
WHO ARE...NOW and FOREVER accepting HIS OFFERING....TO ESTABLISH AN "INDIVIDUALS" ONCE and FOREVER PERMANENT "RELATIONSHIP"
WITH or WITHOUT the Lord God Almighty.

Much of the Scripture regarding the Jews...
Is warning to BABES Just Learning ABOUT Jesus Chirst....inasmuch Paul was teaching and warning BABES (Gentiles) Just Learning ABOUT GOD AND Christ Jesus...

A Gentile WHO has Already Heard, Learned, Accepted the Lord Gods Offering...ARE NOT "Applicabily" comparable to a BABE, being taught and warned of consequences to Accept or Rejects Gods Offering....The HAVE ALREADY ACCEPTED, and Submitted to Conversion. THEIR Place is already Established ... BY GODS PROMISE ... TO FOREVER be WITH the Lord God. THEY ARE SEALED with the Kings SEAL, that no man can break or undo.

 

[marks]

Yes, I have this hope. I have this hope because I believe. The promises are addressed to believers. And so I am holding unswervingly to this hope, in faith, just as the Bible tells us to do.

I'm not talking about the American English version of hope, a wistful, O, I so hope this is true!

I'm talking about the Koine Greek version of hope, that is . . .

We know that when we see Him we will be like Him.

This is God's Word, and I believe God's Word, therefore I have the expectation that this will happen. Not a wistful maybe, but a certainty based on the assurance of His Word.

If you don't know whether or not you will see Him and become like Him, that doesn't qualify for how the Bible uses "hope".

We are promised resurrection, we believe His promise, so we have the certain expectation of resurrection. We have the hope of the resurrection. There's the Biblical usage.

Romans 5:1-5 KJV
1) Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2) By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3) And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4) And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5) And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Is God's "hope" wistful? Or does He know what the outcome will be?

Romans 8:18-21 KJV
18) For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19) For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20) For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21) Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Much love!

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Speaking to Once Saved Always Saved adherents and trying to make scripture stick to them is like trying to make magnets stick together at the same poles.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

If you don't know whether or not you will see Him and become like Him, that doesn't qualify for how the Bible uses "hope".

I do expect to see him and become as he is....because I believe in the promise of that hope, just like you.↓↓↓↓

We are promised resurrection, we believe His promise, so we have the certain expectation of resurrection. We have the hope of the resurrection. There's the Biblical usage.

Because this is such a great and sure hope, and only believers have it, we are exhorted to keep believing in it....

Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens...let us hold firmly to what we profess. Hebrews 4:14

Let us hold resolutely to the hope we profess, for He who promised is faithful. Hebrews 10:23​

 

[marks]

I do expect to see him and become as he is....because I believe in the promise of that hope, just like you.

What makes you think you will continue to believe? Don't you think it's possible you won't? Just how solid is your expectation? Like God's concerning His creation, and what He's doing with it?

Romans 8:19-21 KJV
19) For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20) For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21) Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

God's hope isn't a maybe, it's shall be.

Much love!

 

[amigo de christo]

post 2661.....

What behold said , is highly dangerous stuff .

 

[Tong2020]

This thread is rife with logical fallacies!

Have you ever gone through a thread and actually catalogued all the logical fallacies? I started doing that once, I picked a few threads to look at, but quickly realized there are just SO MANY, particularly in certain ones, like this one.

Much love!

No I have not. I’ll take your word for it.

Tong
R2717