Once Saved Always Saved

[Ferris Bueller]

Can you say that you KNOW that when He shall appear, that you will be like Him?

Now we are the sons of God. We know that when He shall appear, we shall be like Him.

Do you have this knowledge?

Yes. I KNOW. Yes. I have this knowledge.

I don't see how, as you don't know whether you will be saved.

Because I believe, right now. That's how I know. The promises are for those who believe. The promises will no longer be for me if I stop believing some time in the future. Unbelievers don't inherit what has been promised. That's why we're told to keep believing.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

What behold said , is highly dangerous stuff .

It's a joke is what it is, lol.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

God's hope isn't a maybe, it's shall be.

That's why I'm holding fast to it! That's why the Bible tells us to keep believing in it.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

What makes you think you will continue to believe?

So far it's because I don't want to lose God's forgiveness for sin. I value what he has promised more than I do any earthly gain I might have in going back to the world and it's ways.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Don't you think it's possible you won't?

The possibility exists. This is easily seen in Paul's letters......

...you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. Romans 11:20

...the one who thinks he is standing firm should be careful not to fall. 1 Corinthians 10:12
​

We should be humble, not arrogant in our believing.

 

[Tong2020]

marks said: ↑
You keep trying to make this about your precious Anti-OSAS. Stop trying to make everything about OSAS. This is your red herring, and you use it a lot instead of offering exposition on the verses we are discussing. I've yet to see you exegete the passages, but that doesn't surprise me.

Just read the passages, don't change them around. Forget about doctrines, first try to understand the verses for what they say of themselves. Not trying to make them fit something else.

Staying with this one for the moment . . .

You've become a partaker of Christ, but that's only true if you continue in your confidence to the end.

IF you don't, you didn't become a partaker. Not that you did and stopped. That's not what the verse says.

So, first we accept the reality of the wording of this passage . . . if we will . . . and from that, THEN we go on to form our doctrines.

FORGET about your anti-OSAS. Forget about Whether you can or can't, will or won't, did or didn't, forget about everything else and focus on what the passage actually states.

I already went over Hebrews 3:14. And I know you read it because I think you replied to it. I'm the one that can acknowledge that a person can read it more than one way. I explained what the failure of the osas way of looking at it is. It only makes sense from the anti-osas view.

Yes, any passage for that matter can be read in many ways. So the question is, what is the correct reading?

@marks request is noble and wise. And Do we not claim to do that when we read scriptures? To read them without prejudice and bias? So let’s do that.

Hebrews 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

The becoming partakers in Christ clearly depends on the “if”. So, one becomes a partaker of Christ when the “if” is true and not when it is false. I think we can all agree to that reading, can we?

Now, we ask these questions:

Those who are believing today, are they partakers of Christ?

Those who stop believing today, were they partakers of Christ before today?

Tong
R2718

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
So, when you said that you cannot know of you are really saved or not, you really meant yo can know, since you now say you know with certainty that you are saved? Be clear please.

Did I respond to this?

You can know you are saved in anti-osas. What has yet to be known is if you're going to continue to believe the word, retaining it in you, and so satisfy the ongoing condition for remaining in Christ and the Father and the promise of eternal life. Even osas says you can't know if you're really a rocky type of soil, where the word does not stay in the soil, until the end when you can see if it did stay in the soil, thus proving you to be really saved.

It seems to me from what you are saying, that whether one is truly saved or not, is settled by the person, is that right?

It seems to me from what you are saying, that one could only know if he is truly saved or not, is only at the end, so that, it is dishonest for one to say or claim that he is truly saved or knows that he is truly saved, at any time before his end, is that right?

Tong
R2719

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
That’s with regards fruit bearing. It’s pruning.

Do you hear yourself? If you do not produce fruit, you will be cut from the vine. This means nothing to you!

*typo error corrected in the quote.

I hear scriptures, not myself.

As I said those scriptures talks about fruit bearing. The figure is about fruit bearing and not about salvation or getting saved or being lost.

Those who does not bear fruit are cut off and those who does are pruned to bear more fruit. It is a mistake and misuse of the passage, to equate fruit bearing with attaining or losing salvation.

Let’s hear scriptures and not ourselves.

Tong
R2720

 

[Tong2020]

Discernment. Are you truly unable to differentiate between NOW and LATER?

I know I do not have Covid (NOW) but maybe I’ll get it (LATER)?

This is really a matter of faith. For it involves that which is unseen to us, the LATER.

Now, does not the Christian walk by faith, not by sight?

If one walks by sight, he surely would be saying “I will know whether I am truly saved at the end. I am truly saved if I believed until the end and I am not if I did not”. And that is how it will be with him. Not saying that is wrong, but that, while his end is not yet, he goes on to live without certainty of his end, which robs him of the joy and peace which he should have if he walks by faith.

If one walks by faith, as one should, he have joy and peace, knowing by faith, that he is truly saved and will continue to the end. For this is what scriptures says of faith:

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

So, let us be reminded, let us walk by faith, not by sight. You will be amazed on what will happen and what that brings.

Tong
R2721

 

[Tong2020]

Well gee . . . this is now . . . This is later . . . this is later still.



I'm a human now. Will I be a human later?

I'm a child of God now. Will I be a child of God later?

What does discernment tell us?

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

How important is it to have this hope?

Much love!

I have to say that’s a very good passage to cite to point out the truth as to the state of the True Christians.

So, we ask, do you have this hope referred in verse 2?

If you do, then you have purified yourself by that hope, just as God is pure, as the passage says in verse 3.

It must be realized however that this is only so for the true Christians.

Tong
R2722

 

[Tong2020]

marks said: ↑
How important is it to have this hope?

It's everything! That's why we are told to cling to it in faith.....

Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. Hebrews 10:23
​

Our hope is sure, and the One who gives us such a sure hope is faithful to his promise. That's why the writer says to hold unswervingly in faith to so great a hope. But Osas says the sureness of the hope is that you can't lose the things hoped for. I guess it could be summed up this way.......

Osas - Your possession of the hope of the things promised is what is eternal. You will always continue in faith, holding fast to the hope of the things promised.

Anti-Osas - The things themselves that are hoped for is what is eternal. That's why you should continue in faith, holding fast to the hope of the things promised.

It's easy to see that Hebrews teaches the anti-OSAS understanding listed above, not the OSAS understanding. But a OSAS prejudice will keep one from seeing it.

One reads by sight and another reads by faith. One walks by sight and another walks by faith. One is of the seen and another is of the unseen. One is of the material (physical) and one is of the spirit. One is of the world and another is of God.

Hope is of faith, of the unseen, of the spirit, of God. Things hoped for are of faith, of the unseen, of the spirit, of God. The hope the true Christians have is of faith, of the unseen, of the spirit, of God.

One who have that hope is the true Christian and is truly saved.

Why are there scriptures that speaks of continuing in the faith?

One will notice that such were given as admonition, or encouragement, or reminder. For the Christian is yet in the body of death where sin dwells which continuously and constantly tempts and deceives the Christian. The strong in faith can easily overcome this. But there are the still weak in faith, though could overcome, finds it very difficult to do. They are easily tempted and deceived, and so are in danger of sinning and even living in sin. And because of this, which actually was happening in the early church, which understandably are yet babes in the faith, that many sins and even are found to live in sin, it was but of necessity that the apostles give such admonition, encouragement, and reminder, not really so that they will be saved, but to remind them of who they are, that they are children of God, those who indeed are children of God.

Tong
R2723

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
No one who are in a state of death, rendered dead to God, could see nor hear, more so could have faith, unless they be first made alive.

We have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand (Romans 5:1-2)

And round and round it goes.

Yes by faith we have access.

How do you suppose the dead get to have faith if not made alive first? That is the question you should be addressing.

Tong
R2724

 

[Tong2020]

marks said: ↑
1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Can you say that you KNOW that when He shall appear, that you will be like Him?

Now we are the sons of God. We know that when He shall appear, we shall be like Him.

Do you have this knowledge?

I don't see how, as you don't know whether you will be saved.

Yes, I have this hope. I have this hope because I believe. The promises are addressed to believers. And so I am holding unswervingly to this hope, in faith, just as the Bible tells us to do.

Good then.

As the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, the admonition, encouragement, and reminder to continue is not made for those who continue, but for those who does not or are in danger of not continuing.

Why must we continue? That is the issue. Why one continues, that is the matter.

As for me, I continue not so I will be saved, as I have been saved already. But I do in obedience to the will of God, I do for the glory of God, I do that I may please God, I do because I love God.

Tong
R2725

 

[Tong2020]

Two against two then....at least until you take an honest look at @Behold's post that @Ferris Bueller has brought up in post #3033 (Once Saved Always Saved).

Not so.

Not that I am saying that this is what you mean, but let me say this, I don’t see it nor take it as being one person against the other person. Perhaps, one view against another view.

Tong
R2726

 

[Tong2020]

I'm not talking about the American English version of hope, a wistful, O, I so hope this is true!

I'm talking about the Koine Greek version of hope, that is . . .

We know that when we see Him we will be like Him.

This is God's Word, and I believe God's Word, therefore I have the expectation that this will happen. Not a wistful maybe, but a certainty based on the assurance of His Word.

If you don't know whether or not you will see Him and become like Him, that doesn't qualify for how the Bible uses "hope".

We are promised resurrection, we believe His promise, so we have the certain expectation of resurrection. We have the hope of the resurrection. There's the Biblical usage.

Romans 5:1-5 KJV
1) Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2) By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3) And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4) And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5) And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Is God's "hope" wistful? Or does He know what the outcome will be?

Romans 8:18-21 KJV
18) For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19) For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20) For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21) Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Much love!

Yes. One must realize that there is hope that comes from God and there is hope that comes from man. As there is faith that comes from God and faith that comes from man. Now, the hope spoken of in those passages refers to the hope that comes from God.

Tong
R2727

 

[Tong2020]

Speaking to Once Saved Always Saved adherents and trying to make scripture stick to them is like trying to make magnets stick together at the same poles.

I am an adherent of the doctrines found in scriptures. I don’t know what the doctrine of “once saved always saved” exactly is nor of “once saved not always saved”.

How about speaking to “Once saved not always saved” adherents? What do you say is that like?

Tong
R2728

 

[Tong2020]

marks said: ↑
What makes you think you will continue to believe?

So far it's because I don't want to lose God's forgiveness for sin. I value what he has promised more than I do any earthly gain I might have in going back to the world and it's ways.

I will have to commend that honest answer of yours.

Got a glimpse of what mind and heart you have.

Tong
R2729

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Those who are believing today, are they partakers of Christ?

Yes.

Those who stop believing today, were they partakers of Christ before today?

Maybe. Maybe not. Either is possible. In osas, how long must one believe before they can be sure the believing they've been doing has been real showing them to really be a partaker of Christ?

The important thing is that you are a believer, now. Whether or not the person who doesn't believe today was ever saved or not might be an interesting question, but it is not an important one. What matters is that you are believing today and that you keep believing, just as the Bible exhorts us to do.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Hebrews 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

The becoming partakers in Christ clearly depends on the “if”. So, one becomes a partaker of Christ when the “if” is true and not when it is false. I think we can all agree to that reading, can we?

Yes, but that reading can be understood in two different ways.....

Osas: If you keep believing you show that you have the ongoing result of having been made a partaker of Christ.

Anti-Osas: You continue to have the ongoing result of having been made a partaker of Christ if you keep believing.

Remember, the Perfect* tense brings the results of a past completed action up the present (not forever into the future). And that result continuing onward is conditional on your continued believing.

* Edit: Sorry, I originally had 'Present' here. I meant 'Perfect'.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

I don’t know what the doctrine of “once saved always saved”

If you believe that you can never lose your salvation, no matter how you behave after getting saved, then you believe that once you are saved you are always saved.

Only those who defend Once Saved Always Saved use the term “once saved, not always saved” or “NOSAS”.