The Case Against the Trinity

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

And he will call out to me, ‘You are my Father, my God, and the Rock of my salvation.’
Psalm 89:26

This is David calling God his Father. Not God being described as the Father. There is a difference

 

[Heart2Soul]

The Bible rightly calls God the Father. There is not a single instance in the Bible were it is phrase God the Son or God the Holy Spirit.

I wasn't inferring that it was in the scriptures....I was asking why it is phrased as in modern English as such by some individuals.
Thank you for your reply.

 

[Wrangler]

tsr, the intention of this thread is to strengthen the case against the trinity. Please make sure future posts aim at that objective. Thanks!

Classically the Trinity was defined in these terms: God is one in essence and three in person.

The trinity is a 4th century man-made construct. Jesus did not teach us to pray to three persons.

We are accustomed to thinking in terms of “One person equals one essence.” This equation may be a convenient one, but it’s not a rationally necessary one.

Yes, 'One person equals one essence' is a rationally necessary equation.

The Trinity is indeed unusual and mysterious, but it is not inherently or analytically irrational.

Yes, the trinity is inherently and analytically irrational and self-contradictory.

1. The Trinity is not in the Bible. It is such an important idea that it is not mentioned once in the 66 books of the Bible. In fact, the trinity goes against the Bible. See 1C, the Shema, my signature & Joel 2:27, etc.

2. Who sits at the right hand of God?

3. God is one essence is violated by the man-is-God thesis. The true passion of trinitarianism is this contradictory man-is-God thesis. The son of Joe is Hunter. Hunter is not Joe. Exodus 33:20 contradicts the fact that people saw Jesus and lived IF Jesus were God. Jesus is called Christ, which means anointed. Jesus was the object of the action. God was the actor, doing the anointing.

Trinitarianism inherently violates logic, definition and language usage, relying on dualism. One is not the same as 2 or 3. Singular pronouns do not mean 3 persons.


Israel, you will know that I stand at your side. I am the LORD your God— there are no other gods.
Joel 2:27 (CEV)

 

[Wrangler]

This is David calling God his Father. Not God being described as the Father. There is a difference

Moving the Goal post. You asked if God is called the Father in the OT. He was. You just want to deny it AS IF it even makes a difference.

 

[theefaith]

All authority has been given Him by God the Father...
What is the definition of the word God

1. God, Supreme Being(noun)
   
   the supernatural being conceived as the perfect and omnipotent and omniscient originator and ruler of the universe; the object of worship in monotheistic religions
   
   
2. deity, divinity, god, immortal(noun)
   
   any supernatural being worshipped as controlling some part of the world or some aspect of life or who is the personification of a force
   
   
3. god(noun)
   
   a man of such superior qualities that he seems like a deity to other people
   
   "he was a god among men"
   
   
4. idol, graven image, god(noun)
   
   a material effigy that is worshipped
   
   "thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image"; "money was his god"

The Bible speaks of gods and against the worship of idol gods.
The god of other religions such as Hindu or Muslim pray to "God" but it isn't the same God we pray to.
We believe in God the Father......God the Son....and God the Holy Spirit...
Why is it phrased as God "the" ....Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?
God is an identifier of who and what He is....God is another word for Deity.
God is NOT His name...His name is Yahweh, Elohim, Adonai, El Shaddai...and others.
Does this make sense?

Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

 

[Wrangler]

Hierarchy. Who sent Jesus? Not 'the Father' but God, in his unitarian nature.

John 6:38 For I have come down from heaven to do the will of God who sent me, not to do my own will.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Hierarchy. Who sent Jesus? Not 'the Father' but God, in his unitarian nature.

John 6:38 For I have come down from heaven to do the will of God who sent me, not to do my own will.

John 5:30,36
[30]I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
[36]But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

 

[Wrangler]

John 5:30,36
[30]I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
[36]But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

Thanks for that. Trinitarians want to pretend the figurative John 1:1 is the end all be all. Keep reading and you find John writes many of the most damning verses in all of Scripture AGAINST trinitarianism. John 17:22 & 20:17 are proof texts.

Of course to get around this, trinitarians predictably turn to dualism. On the plane of existence of Earth Jesus is this way but elsewhere, they assert, it is different - AS IF Mark 7:13 does not prohibit adding words to God's.

 

[Heart2Soul]

Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

This has been quoted numerous times...Jesus existed with our Father from the beginning of the foundation of the world....He was among men in the OT....He was Spirit not Flesh...He was obedient to our Father even unto death....He became flesh in order to dwell among us.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

This has been quoted numerous times...Jesus existed with our Father from the beginning of the foundation of the world....He was among men in the OT....He was Spirit not Flesh...He was obedient to our Father even unto death....He became flesh in order to dwell among us.

But Jesus IS Almighty God and equal to the Father

 

[Wrangler]

This has been quoted numerous times...Jesus existed with our Father from the beginning of the foundation of the world

There is no such verse as this in Scripture even though trinitarians want the figurative language John 1:1 to be interpreted that way.

 

[Wrangler]

But Jesus IS Almighty God and equal to the Father

Not this equality stuff again. There is a whole thread dedicated to that nonsense. The Father was not obedient to Jesus onto death.

 

[theefaith]

This has been quoted numerous times...Jesus existed with our Father from the beginning of the foundation of the world....He was among men in the OT....He was Spirit not Flesh...He was obedient to our Father even unto death....He became flesh in order to dwell among us.

so is Jesus and the father the same person?

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

figurative language

really? did you decide on this?

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Not this equality stuff again. There is a whole thread dedicated to that nonsense. The Father was not obedient to Jesus onto death.

Jesus Christ as the God-Man, was "subordinate" to the Father, for the duration of His time on earth. This is very clear in John 17:5

"And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed"

Note, from even "before the world existed", which means, "eternity past", Jesus Chris had the SAME Glory that is Status, with the Father. Here He is saying to the Father, that after His Ascension, He would return to this SAME Glory.

As I have said elsewhere, in John 5:23, it is clear, that while on earth, and at the time Jesus was "subordinate" to the Father, He tells the Jews

"so that all may honor the Son JUST AS they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him"

See, EQUAL HONOR with the Father, which is very clear! Those who do not HONOR Jesus, don not HONOR the Father.

 

[Heart2Soul]

But Jesus IS Almighty God and equal to the Father

What does being equal mean to you?

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

What does being equal mean to you?

With no advantage to either side

 

[Heart2Soul]

With no advantage to either side

An equal sign...=....indicates that the subject on each side of the sign are equivalent to each other yet their properties may differ.
Math for example...2(2+2)=9-1....both sides when calculated equals 8 so they are equal to each other in how they calculate a set of numbers and reach the same conclusion.
YHWH=YAHSHUA

so is Jesus and the father the same person?

I believe with all my heart and soul they are not the same..Jesus has always been His Son....
Other scriptures also call the angels sons of God...

 

[theefaith]

An equal sign...=....indicates that the subject on each side of the sign are equivalent to each other yet their properties may differ.
Math for example...2(2+2)=9-1....both sides when calculated equals 8 so they are equal to each other in how they calculate a set of numbers and reach the same conclusion.
YHWH=YAHSHUA


I believe with all my heart and soul they are not the same..Jesus has always been His Son....
Other scriptures also call the angels sons of God...

And believers too but we’re not God, Jesus is

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus Christ as the God-Man, was "subordinate" to the Father, for the duration of His time on earth. This is very clear in John 17:5

Where do you get the qualifier implying equality with God ever?