The Case Against the Trinity

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Heart2Soul

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And believers too but we’re not God, Jesus is
We almost were.....:eek:
Gen 3 (NKJV)
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
²² Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"-–
²³ therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken.
²⁴ So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.:)
 

APAK

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so Jesus is not Almighty God, 100% coequal, coessential, and coeternal with the Father?
BGTF: Who taught you Jesus is YHWH anyway? As a part of you upbringing? Your local congregation? your friends? Your family? From yourself? From a mixture of sources? I cannot believe or even imagine that the Spirit of YHWH inspired you to believe that Yahshua is the same as his Father, YHWH.

Just saying.

How are the West Midlands these days under these draconian COVID lockdowns? (off topic I guess)

APAK
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

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BGTF: Who taught you Jesus is YHWH anyway? As a part of you upbringing? Your local congregation? your friends? Your family? From yourself? From a mixture of sources? I cannot believe or even imagine that the Spirit of YHWH inspired you to believe that Yahshua is the same as his Father, YHWH.

Just saying.

How are the West Midlands these days under these draconian COVID lockdowns? (off topic I guess)

APAK

The Bible says that Jesus Christ IS YHWH
 

theefaith

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We almost were.....:eek:
Gen 3 (NKJV)
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
²² Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"-–
²³ therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken.
²⁴ So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.:)

Being created by God with intellect and will does not make us God I.e. uncreated and eternal
 

theefaith

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One God: divine nature
Three persons

the Father is God
The son is God
The HS is God

not three Gods but one God

like Tom, dick and Harry
Three persons one human nature

the Father is not the son or Hs
The son is not the father or Hs
The HS is not the father or the son
 

Heart2Soul

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One God: divine nature
Three persons

the Father is God
The son is God
The HS is God

not three Gods but one God

like Tom, dick and Harry
Three persons one human nature

the Father is not the son or Hs
The son is not the father or Hs
The HS is not the father or the son
One Godhead....3 distinct and separate beings....
 
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theefaith

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Athanasius Creed!

Whoever desires to be saved must above all hold to the catholic faith.

Anyone who does not keep it whole and entire will doubtless perish eternally.

Now this is the catholic faith:

That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity, neither blending their persons nor dividing their essence. For the person of the Father is a distinct person, the person of the Son is another,
and that of the Holy Spirit still another.
But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.

What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has. The Father is uncreated, the Son is uncreated, the Holy Spirit is uncreated.

The Father is immeasurable, the Son is immeasurable, the Holy Spirit is immeasurable.

The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal,
the Holy Spirit is eternal.

And yet there are not three eternal beings; there is but one eternal being.
So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings, there is but one uncreated and immeasurable being.

Similarly, the Father is almighty, the Son is almighty, the Holy Spirit is almighty. Yet there are not three almighty beings;
there is but one almighty being.

Thus the Father is God,
the Son is God,
the Holy Spirit is God.
Yet there are not three gods;
there is but one God.

Thus the Father is Lord,
the Son is Lord,
the Holy Spirit is Lord.
Yet there are not three lords;
there is but one Lord.

Just as Christian truth compels us
to confess each person individually
as both God and Lord, so catholic religion forbids us to say that there are three gods or lords.

The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone. The Son was neither made nor created; he was begotten from the Father alone. The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten; he proceeds from the Father and the Son.

Accordingly there is one Father, not three fathers; there is one Son, not three sons;
there is one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.

Nothing in this trinity is before or after,
nothing is greater or smaller; in their entirety the three persons are coeternal and coequal with each other.

So in everything, as was said earlier,
we must worship their trinity in their unity and their unity in their trinity.

Anyone then who desires to be saved
should think thus about the trinity.

But it is necessary for eternal salvation
that one also believe in the incarnation
of our Lord Jesus Christ faithfully.

Now this is the true faith:

That we believe and confess
that our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son,
is both God and human, equally.

He is God from the essence of the Father,
begotten before time; and he is human from the essence of his mother, born in time; completely God, completely human, with a rational soul and human flesh; equal to the Father as regards divinity, less than the Father as regards humanity.

Although he is God and human,
yet Christ is not two, but one.
He is one, however, not by his divinity being turned into flesh, but by God's taking humanity to himself.He is one,
certainly not by the blending of his essence, but by the unity of his person.
For just as one human is both rational soul and flesh, so too the one Christ is both God and human.

He suffered for our salvation; he descended to hell; he arose from the dead; he ascended to heaven; he is seated at the Father's right hand; from there he will come to judge the living and the dead. At his coming all people will arise bodily and give an accounting of their own deeds. Those who have done good will enter eternal life, and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

This is the catholic faith:
one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully.
 

Wrangler

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One Godhead....3 distinct and separate beings....

I'm not sure how this strengthens the case against the trinity.

Came across this golden nugget in today's devotional reading. The Bible is filled with such verses, which indicates 2 beings in the normal use of language. The Son of Man is the 3rd person language, not God's plan.


22 The Son of Man is going to his death according to God’s plan, but woe to that man by whom he is being betrayed!”
Luke 22:22 (CJB)
 

Wrangler

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They are equal

Yea, except for all the ways they are unequal, they are equal.

This is the most absurd thing I ever heard. The Father begat Jesus. Jesus died. God raised Jesus from the dead. Jesus was sent, did the will, spoke the words of God, needed to be strengthened by angels and prophets and asked God to take the Cup. Jesus submitted to the will of the Father.

In none of these instances is the reverse equally true. Jesus did not begat the Father.The Father did not die. Jesus did not raise the Father from the dead. The Father was not sent and did not do the will of Jesus. The Father did not speak the words of Jesus. The Father did not need to be strengthened. The Father did not ask Jesus to take the cup. The Father did not submit to the will of the son.
 

Heart2Soul

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I suspect that we believe the same but are saying it in different ways which may make it appear as different.
Bottom line for me is I believe Jesus is the ONLY begotten Son of God, He was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the virgin Mary, lived a sinless life, performed many miracles, taught the disciples, was crucified taking the sins of the world upon Himself, died and rose again, sits at the right hand of the Father in heaven, intercedes on our behalf, and is coming back soon.
AMEN!
I pray to my Father, in Jesus name.
 

theefaith

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What we must all believe is acts 2:42
Doctrine of the apostles!
Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me... (apostles)

what did the apostles teach concerning the most holy trinity?

The Apostles Creed!

I believe in one God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.
And in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried; he descended to hell. The third day he rose again from the dead. He ascended to heaven and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty. From there he will come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.

Nicene Creed!

We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only Son of God,
begotten from the Father before all ages,
God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made; one in being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven; he became incarnate by the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary, and was made man. He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate; he suffered and was buried. The third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures. He ascended to heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will never end.

And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life. He proceeds from the Father and the Son, and with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified. He spoke through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church. We affirm one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look forward to the resurrection of the dead,
and to life in the world to come. Amen.

Athanasius Creed! posted already
 
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