The Case Against the Trinity

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jaybird

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Why did it take so long to form the doctrine? In the late 500s they are still calling councils making changes to the doctrine. That's almost 600 years after Jesus. If it's "plainly" taught in scripture it shouldn't take that long to figure out.
How long is 600 years? In Europe they didn't know about the new world, kjv bible not invented, Luther had not nailed his letter to the door yet. That's been a lot of years since all that.
 

Wrangler

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Why did it take so long to form the doctrine? In the late 500s they are still calling councils making changes to the doctrine

This is a great question and you know we get a disingenuous answer; that it was always the doctrine.

As I posted in another thread, the trinity is so important, it is not mentioned one time in the Bible. The mental gymnastics to synthesize their doctrine, desperately taking verses out of context and projecting a trinitarian interpretation is undermined by the fact that the entire Bible is written by unitarian/monotheist Jews who reject the trinity to this day.

The importance of this non-existent doctrine is seen in the fact that trinitarians would rather one NOT be saved, not accept Jesus if the Jesus one goes to is not the man-God thesis. The big reveal that got Jesus killed was him being the Messiah. God incarnate was not

High Priest: Are You God’s Anointed, the Liberating King, the Son of the Blessed One?

Jesus: 62 I am.
Mark 14:61-62
 
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Grunt Hemlock

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Wrangler said:
"the entire Bible is written by unitarian/monotheist Jews who reject the trinity to this day."

Just pinch off the Gospel of Luke and Acts of the Apostles and see what a significant chunk of the New Testament was written by the Gentile Luke.

Asinine statements by those who don't know their butt from a hot rock concerning the Bible are just ludicrous.
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

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what drew you toward Unitarianism? (not to be answered in a single post ...) Trinitarians are so captured by their idolatry, they cannot consider anyone accepting Jesus as their Savior while holding there is only one God who is one being/person. Indeed, the emotion behind the 'man is God thesis' is so powerful, many trinitarians fail to recognize that any Bible verse that seems to support this 4th century heresy does nothing to advance the cause of 3is1ism as that would still only be 2.

To answer the question; Trinitarianism was always a detestable abomination to my intellect based on the following pathways of thinking.
A. The 1C. It must be important if God put it first and used singular pronoun and I cannot think of who it would especially apply to more than the Son.
B. Rejection of mysticism/dualism. 1 ≠ 2 ≠ 3. Or 1 + 1 + 1 = 1 and 1 = 1 + 1.
C. Definition, logic, & language. Consider the statement, "Jesus (the son) was raised from the dead by God (the father) to be the first fruits and is our only Mediator to God."
  1. Father. Son. By definition, not the same. And son is created by the father. No exceptions to this prerequisite arrangement. If this is not their relationship, then words mean nothing.
  2. Jesus said God is greater, more knowledgable & more glorious. By definition, these cannot be one and the same.
  3. God incarnate is not prophesied in the OT. It's not even implied in the vast majority of the NT text.
  4. The trinity is not in the Bible & Jesus never said to worship a triune God.
  5. Subject v object of sentence. Jesus has many titles. Many of them are 'of God.' The umbrella of Bob is not Bob. "I drank from the cup" ≠ "I told my servant to drink from the cup and he drank from it."
  6. Raised from the dead means Jesus was acted upon, the object of action by the subject, God. By definition, this is not the same as Jesus rose from the dead, doing the action himself.
  7. "First" implies a coming series of like. My first girlfriend was like others that followed. She was not fundamentally different from those that followed. We don't count Apples and Oranges as Apples.
  8. A mediator acts between 2 parties. A mediator, by definition, is not also one of the 2 parties he is mediating for.
I like magic, superpowers, etc. However, not even God can violate logic. For instance, He cannot be all-knowing and get lost. He cannot be all powerful and actually suffer & die as Jesus did. He cannot be all holy and sinful. The resurrected Jesus would not say he is going to his God if he were God incarnate for the same reason that one cannot sit on their own right side. This is because in reality contradictions do not exist. I hope that answers the question. View attachment 13365


I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
Galileo Galilei

The Distinction of Persons in The Holy Trinity
 

Wrangler

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You do know there is no distinction between being and person, right? That is a trinitarian construct.

Jesus said he was going to his God. That is the only God. Jesus' God is the only God. He is Spirit and his Spirit is holy. There is no 3rd being or person. However, the passion people have is the man-God thesis. Do you accept that Hunter, the son of Joe Biden, is not Joe Biden?
 

Wrangler

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In another thread, the debater was perfectly willing to concede Acts 17:31 identify the fact that Jesus is a man that God raised. (Of course, trinitarians do not feel nailed down in admitting Jesus was a man due to duality; he was man and non-man.)

Silence ensued when I pointed out that Acts 17:31 shows that God chose, selected, appointed Jesus.
 

Wrangler

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This is a good analysis.

Who anointed Jesus? Who chose him? Who sent him?

The prophet Samuel anointed both King Saul and King David. He used oil, [probably olive oil] and touched it to or poured it on their heads. But that was an OT anointing where many times it was a physical ritual typifying the spiritual anointing to come. Both of them as we read in the scriptures were anointed also by the Spirit... effectively become new men. Saul alone of the two lost his anointing due to his repeated selfish disobedience...

"But the spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him." I Sam 16:14

Then here we see Jesus being anointed directly as the Spirit of God lights upon him:

"And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." Matt 3:16-17

And then here:

"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
To preach the acceptable year of the Lord." Luke 4:18-19

So then who is the He that anointed and sent Jesus?


"I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me" John 5:30
 
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theefaith

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[QUOTE

matt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


Jn 1:23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias. (Jesus is Lord)

John 5:18
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Jn 20:28 my Lord and my God!
 

Wrangler

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Rev 22:21 last verse in the Bible....
It says that the grace of the Lord Jesus (The action of the Son who willingly volunteered to lay down his life for us on the cross for our salvation - that was his grace) BE WITH God's people. Amen. This is saying that those saved because of the Son's grace are truly YHWH's or the Father's people. A distinction again is made between the Son, Jesus Christ and the Almighty, YHWH, the Father.

All oppose trinitarianism to the end:
  1. Logic.
  2. Definition.
  3. Language Usage.
 
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Wrangler

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Proof text. Good description

The proof text that Scripture is speaking of the trinity being one in unity, not being one and the same, is John 17:22, where Jesus on earth is praying to the Father in heaven concerning all believers present and future are given the glory which God gave to Him; "that they may be one, even as we are one."
 

theefaith

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what drew you toward Unitarianism? (not to be answered in a single post ...) Trinitarians are so captured by their idolatry, they cannot consider anyone accepting Jesus as their Savior while holding there is only one God who is one being/person. Indeed, the emotion behind the 'man is God thesis' is so powerful, many trinitarians fail to recognize that any Bible verse that seems to support this 4th century heresy does nothing to advance the cause of 3is1ism as that would still only be 2.

To answer the question; Trinitarianism was always a detestable abomination to my intellect based on the following pathways of thinking.
A. The 1C. It must be important if God put it first and used singular pronoun and I cannot think of who it would especially apply to more than the Son.
B. Rejection of mysticism/dualism. 1 ≠ 2 ≠ 3. Or 1 + 1 + 1 = 1 and 1 = 1 + 1.
C. Definition, logic, & language. Consider the statement, "Jesus (the son) was raised from the dead by God (the father) to be the first fruits and is our only Mediator to God."
  1. Father. Son. By definition, not the same. And son is created by the father. No exceptions to this prerequisite arrangement. If this is not their relationship, then words mean nothing.
  2. Jesus said God is greater, more knowledgable & more glorious. By definition, these cannot be one and the same.
  3. God incarnate is not prophesied in the OT. It's not even implied in the vast majority of the NT text.
  4. The trinity is not in the Bible & Jesus never said to worship a triune God.
  5. Subject v object of sentence. Jesus has many titles. Many of them are 'of God.' The umbrella of Bob is not Bob. "I drank from the cup" ≠ "I told my servant to drink from the cup and he drank from it."
  6. Raised from the dead means Jesus was acted upon, the object of action by the subject, God. By definition, this is not the same as Jesus rose from the dead, doing the action himself.
  7. "First" implies a coming series of like. My first girlfriend was like others that followed. She was not fundamentally different from those that followed. We don't count Apples and Oranges as Apples.
  8. A mediator acts between 2 parties. A mediator, by definition, is not also one of the 2 parties he is mediating for.

You misunderstand the fact Jesus is both man and God
Only His humanity died on the cross
He is mediator in His humanity

Phil 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.


Jesus is God!
 

Wrangler

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Another poster pointed out the passage that Adam was the man who brought sin into the world and that was balanced by a perfect man who redeemed the world.

Of course, this poses no problem for dualists.
 

theefaith

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Jesus is Lord! Lord is God! Jesus is God!

it is not in mortal man to work miracles, but it is in God’s nature! And Jesus Christ worked miracles!
 

Heart2Soul

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The bible says Jesus is God.
All authority has been given Him by God the Father...
What is the definition of the word God
  1. God, Supreme Being(noun)

    the supernatural being conceived as the perfect and omnipotent and omniscient originator and ruler of the universe; the object of worship in monotheistic religions

  2. deity, divinity, god, immortal(noun)

    any supernatural being worshipped as controlling some part of the world or some aspect of life or who is the personification of a force

  3. god(noun)

    a man of such superior qualities that he seems like a deity to other people

    "he was a god among men"

  4. idol, graven image, god(noun)

    a material effigy that is worshipped

    "thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image"; "money was his god"
The Bible speaks of gods and against the worship of idol gods.
The god of other religions such as Hindu or Muslim pray to "God" but it isn't the same God we pray to.
We believe in God the Father......God the Son....and God the Holy Spirit...
Why is it phrased as God "the" ....Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?
God is an identifier of who and what He is....God is another word for Deity.
God is NOT His name...His name is Yahweh, Elohim, Adonai, El Shaddai...and others.
Does this make sense?
 
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Wrangler

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Why is it phrased as God "the" ....Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?

The Bible rightly calls God the Father. There is not a single instance in the Bible were it is phrase God the Son or God the Holy Spirit.


according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood:May grace and peace be multiplied to you.
1 Peter 1:2 (ESV)
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

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The Bible rightly calls God the Father. There is not a single instance in the Bible were it is phrase God the Son or God the Holy Spirit.


according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood:May grace and peace be multiplied to you.
1 Peter 1:2 (ESV)

Can you show one verse in the Old Testament where God is called the Father
 

tsr

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Classically the Trinity was defined in these terms: God is one in essence and three in person.
We are accustomed to thinking in terms of “One person equals one essence.” This equation may be a convenient one, but it’s not a rationally necessary one. The Trinity is indeed unusual and mysterious, but it is not inherently or analytically irrational.

If the formula for the Trinity asserted that God is one in essence and three in essence or that he is three in person and one in person, we would be engaging in the nonsense of contradiction. Something cannot be one in A and three in A at the same time and in the same relationship. That’s contradiction.

The classical formula of the Trinity is that God is one in one thing (one in A, essence) and three in a different thing (three in B, persona). The church fathers were careful not to formulate the nature of God in contradictory terms. The distinction among persons of the Godhead may be “essential” to Christianity, but the distinction itself is not an essential distinction about God. That is, though the distinction among persons is a real and necessary distinction, it is not an essential distinction.


The formula is not meant to say that essence and person are the same things. Essence refers to the being of God, while person is used here as substance within being. Essence is primary and persona is secondary. Essence is the similarity, while personal is the dissimilarity in the nature of God. He is unified in one essence, but diversified in three personae.
 
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