The Only Problem With The Trinity

MatthewG · May 20, 2021

~

The only understanding that has been made know to me about the trinity.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The Word was with God in the Beginning.
The Word was with God.
The Word was God.

Notice Word: Word was with with, and was God and was at the Beginning.

Now the Word: maybe it was in a the form of a shape; all I know is that have no idea what the Word looks like of God and have no ability to see it; Yes the Word was made flesh. This scripture however is still talking about in the Beginning; was the Word with, and was God.

To me the was God is this: the Word of God was a part of God. When God spoke; the Word then had the power to create. So God spoke through the Word -> in which Created the light, heavens, and earth, the Word was with God in the beginning.

The Word was with God, was apart of God (as the mouthpiece), and was with God in the beginning.

The Word - What does that look to do you?

~~~

The Holy Spirit - is not a person in my opinion because what does a spirit look like? Can you describe it to me exactly?

~~~

The Father : God ; our Father - Jesus Christ's Father, : God is a spirit ~ Not flesh and bones.

~~~

By and through scripture you can understand these concepts. Though many people like to argue against trinity and whatever, but no one will ever be 100% on it ever period in this lifetime.

My conclusions is that I just do not see 3 people in 1 God. Though do believe that God, the Son of God, and The Holy Spirit all agree and testify as one about the truth of the Heavenly Realms. I believe that Jesus Christ is the Lord God Almighty, the Lord, Son of God, King of Kings, Lord of Lords, and believe that the Lord Jesus Christ, and His Father are completely worthy of trusting and placing hope in.

theefaith · May 20, 2021

Athanasius Creed!
(From the early church)
Whoever desires to be saved must above all hold to the catholic faith.

Anyone who does not keep it whole and entire will doubtless perish eternally.

Now this is the catholic faith:

That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity, neither blending their persons nor dividing their essence. For the person of the Father is a distinct person, the person of the Son is another,
and that of the Holy Spirit still another.
But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.

What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has. The Father is uncreated, the Son is uncreated, the Holy Spirit is uncreated.

The Father is immeasurable, the Son is immeasurable, the Holy Spirit is immeasurable.

The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal,
the Holy Spirit is eternal.

And yet there are not three eternal beings; there is but one eternal being.
So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings, there is but one uncreated and immeasurable being.

Similarly, the Father is almighty, the Son is almighty, the Holy Spirit is almighty. Yet there are not three almighty beings;
there is but one almighty being.

Thus the Father is God,
the Son is God,
the Holy Spirit is God.
Yet there are not three gods;
there is but one God.

Thus the Father is Lord,
the Son is Lord,
the Holy Spirit is Lord.
Yet there are not three lords;
there is but one Lord.

Just as Christian truth compels us
to confess each person individually
as both God and Lord, so catholic religion forbids us to say that there are three gods or lords.

The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone. The Son was neither made nor created; he was begotten from the Father alone. The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten; he proceeds from the Father and the Son.

Accordingly there is one Father, not three fathers; there is one Son, not three sons;
there is one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.

Nothing in this trinity is before or after,
nothing is greater or smaller; in their entirety the three persons are coeternal and coequal with each other.

So in everything, as was said earlier,
we must worship their trinity in their unity and their unity in their trinity.

Anyone then who desires to be saved
should think thus about the trinity.

But it is necessary for eternal salvation
that one also believe in the incarnation
of our Lord Jesus Christ faithfully.

Now this is the true faith:

That we believe and confess
that our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son,
is both God and human, equally.

He is God from the essence of the Father,
begotten before time; and he is human from the essence of his mother, born in time; completely God, completely human, with a rational soul and human flesh; equal to the Father as regards divinity, less than the Father as regards humanity.

Although he is God and human,
yet Christ is not two, but one.
He is one, however, not by his divinity being turned into flesh, but by God's taking humanity to himself.He is one,
certainly not by the blending of his essence, but by the unity of his person.
For just as one human is both rational soul and flesh, so too the one Christ is both God and human.

He suffered for our salvation; he descended to hell; he arose from the dead; he ascended to heaven; he is seated at the Father's right hand; from there he will come to judge the living and the dead. At his coming all people will arise bodily and give an accounting of their own deeds. Those who have done good will enter eternal life, and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

This is the catholic faith:
one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully.

Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God of hosts!

Waiting on him · May 20, 2021

MatthewG said:
The Word - What does that look to do you?

In my mind the beginning was at Calvary. You know when light came into the world.
Or I guess one could say at the baptism of Jesus.

theefaith · May 21, 2021

1st gospel
gen 3:15

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall strike thy heel, and thou shalt crush his head.

2nd gospel

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Ronald Nolette · May 31, 2021

MatthewG said:
~

The only understanding that has been made know to me about the trinity.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The Word was with God in the Beginning.
The Word was with God.
The Word was God.

Notice Word: Word was with with, and was God and was at the Beginning.

Now the Word: maybe it was in a the form of a shape; all I know is that have no idea what the Word looks like of God and have no ability to see it; Yes the Word was made flesh. This scripture however is still talking about in the Beginning; was the Word with, and was God.

To me the was God is this: the Word of God was a part of God. When God spoke; the Word then had the power to create. So God spoke through the Word -> in which Created the light, heavens, and earth, the Word was with God in the beginning.

The Word was with God, was apart of God (as the mouthpiece), and was with God in the beginning.

The Word - What does that look to do you?

~~~

The Holy Spirit - is not a person in my opinion because what does a spirit look like? Can you describe it to me exactly?

~~~

The Father : God ; our Father - Jesus Christ's Father, : God is a spirit ~ Not flesh and bones.

~~~

By and through scripture you can understand these concepts. Though many people like to argue against trinity and whatever, but no one will ever be 100% on it ever period in this lifetime.

My conclusions is that I just do not see 3 people in 1 God. Though do believe that God, the Son of God, and The Holy Spirit all agree and testify as one about the truth of the Heavenly Realms. I believe that Jesus Christ is the Lord God Almighty, the Lord, Son of God, King of Kings, Lord of Lords, and believe that the Lord Jesus Christ, and His Father are completely worthy of trusting and placing hope in.

Well we know what the Word looked like because Scripture tell sus:

John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

If you have a hard time accepting the Spirit as a person then you have a hard time accepting God the Father as a person:

John 4: 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

MatthewG · May 31, 2021

Ok if you say so, Ronald Nolette you may believe that if you want. I do not believe that the scripture tell us what the Word looked like. It might have been in the shape of a person but you cannot be for sure. All we know is that the Word became flesh which became the person known as Jesus Christ. God is a consuming fire, is love, and as you said a spirit. My view of what the Father would look like is blinding and it can easily burn me down. That is all I know. The purest whitest fire anyone could ever know of whiter than the whitest bleach, or the whitest sandy beach.

Truman · May 31, 2021

Unapproachable light, shekinah, and...

Daniel 7:9,10

Truman · May 31, 2021

I bet you I know who these guys are...

Ronald Nolette · Jun 1, 2021

MatthewG said:
Ok if you say so, Ronald Nolette you may believe that if you want. I do not believe that the scripture tell us what the Word looked like. It might have been in the shape of a person but you cannot be for sure. All we know is that the Word became flesh which became the person known as Jesus Christ. God is a consuming fire, is love, and as you said a spirit. My view of what the Father would look like is blinding and it can easily burn me down. That is all I know. The purest whitest fire anyone could ever know of whiter than the whitest bleach, or the whitest sandy beach.

John 1
King James Version

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14-17
King James Version

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

YES I AM SURE THE WORD BECAME A PERSON!!!!!!!! So whatever jesus looked like ( we had no cameras back then) that is what the word looked like! Why you have a problem with that shows a lack of belief in SCripture.

MatthewG · Jun 1, 2021

You can say as you please take care. God bless.

Emily Nghiem · Jun 18, 2021

Dear @MatthewG
Some people just relate to God as one.
Others relate to God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit.

When people use different languages or terms for concepts, our brains can even show different patterns. The neural conditions, associations, and networks are different from one person to the next.

Each of us is unique and has our own relationship with God through Christ.
We do not have to see or say things the same way.

Emily Nghiem · Jun 18, 2021

MatthewG said:
Ok if you say so, Ronald Nolette you may believe that if you want. I do not believe that the scripture tell us what the Word looked like. It might have been in the shape of a person but you cannot be for sure. All we know is that the Word became flesh which became the person known as Jesus Christ. God is a consuming fire, is love, and as you said a spirit. My view of what the Father would look like is blinding and it can easily burn me down. That is all I know. The purest whitest fire anyone could ever know of whiter than the whitest bleach, or the whitest sandy beach.

Dear @MatthewG
Whether or not people believe Jesus was a physical historical figure, a symbolic mythologized or personified figure, or both:
I explain the Bible as teaching the history and future of humanity in the spiritual process of receiving Justice ( Jesus ) and peace ( Holy Spirit ) by agreeing in Christ to establish God's/Universal Truth.

Jesus represents the embodiment of God's Justice and Authority of Lord/Law for all.

We as the people, church or Bride of Christ receive and agree to live by Justice or Jesus in our hearts so we take the Law to heart by Conscience.

Note: would it help to see God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit as one, not three, by comparing it to three roles of Govt (judicial, legislative, executive) but there is only one govt not three. There is one infinite eternal God, some call YHWH meaning I AM WHO I AM, the God of being, self existent, with no beginning and no end. The three manifestations by which humans can perceive God's manifestations are as God the Father/Creator in Heaven/Author of Life, Jesus Christ as the Son who fulfills and embodies the Word/Laws of God as Justice and as Salvation, and the Holy Spirit or Comforter, the spirit of lasting peace for all humanity. Truth Justice and Peace are each manifestations or aspects from the one God. These 3 are not the same as each other. But there is still only one God.

Curtis · Jun 18, 2021

theefaith said:
Athanasius Creed!
(From the early church)
Whoever desires to be saved must above all hold to the catholic faith.

Anyone who does not keep it whole and entire will doubtless perish eternally.

Now this is the catholic faith:

That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity, neither blending their persons nor dividing their essence. For the person of the Father is a distinct person, the person of the Son is another,
and that of the Holy Spirit still another.
But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.

What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has. The Father is uncreated, the Son is uncreated, the Holy Spirit is uncreated.

The Father is immeasurable, the Son is immeasurable, the Holy Spirit is immeasurable.

The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal,
the Holy Spirit is eternal.

And yet there are not three eternal beings; there is but one eternal being.
So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings, there is but one uncreated and immeasurable being.

Similarly, the Father is almighty, the Son is almighty, the Holy Spirit is almighty. Yet there are not three almighty beings;
there is but one almighty being.

Thus the Father is God,
the Son is God,
the Holy Spirit is God.
Yet there are not three gods;
there is but one God.

Thus the Father is Lord,
the Son is Lord,
the Holy Spirit is Lord.
Yet there are not three lords;
there is but one Lord.

Just as Christian truth compels us
to confess each person individually
as both God and Lord, so catholic religion forbids us to say that there are three gods or lords.

The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone. The Son was neither made nor created; he was begotten from the Father alone. The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten; he proceeds from the Father and the Son.

Accordingly there is one Father, not three fathers; there is one Son, not three sons;
there is one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.

Nothing in this trinity is before or after,
nothing is greater or smaller; in their entirety the three persons are coeternal and coequal with each other.

So in everything, as was said earlier,
we must worship their trinity in their unity and their unity in their trinity.

Anyone then who desires to be saved
should think thus about the trinity.

But it is necessary for eternal salvation
that one also believe in the incarnation
of our Lord Jesus Christ faithfully.

Now this is the true faith:

That we believe and confess
that our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son,
is both God and human, equally.

He is God from the essence of the Father,
begotten before time; and he is human from the essence of his mother, born in time; completely God, completely human, with a rational soul and human flesh; equal to the Father as regards divinity, less than the Father as regards humanity.

Although he is God and human,
yet Christ is not two, but one.
He is one, however, not by his divinity being turned into flesh, but by God's taking humanity to himself.He is one,
certainly not by the blending of his essence, but by the unity of his person.
For just as one human is both rational soul and flesh, so too the one Christ is both God and human.

He suffered for our salvation; he descended to hell; he arose from the dead; he ascended to heaven; he is seated at the Father's right hand; from there he will come to judge the living and the dead. At his coming all people will arise bodily and give an accounting of their own deeds. Those who have done good will enter eternal life, and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

This is the catholic faith:
one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully.

Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God of hosts!

Too bad that the word catholic in the first century meant UNIVERSAL and didn’t refer to the Roman Catholic sect at all, as the RCC wants us to believe.

Ronald Nolette said:
Well we know what the Word looked like because Scripture tell sus:

John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

If you have a hard time accepting the Spirit as a person then you have a hard time accepting God the Father as a person:

John 4: 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Of course the Holy Spirit is a person- he speaks, reasons, commands, can be grieved - all things that a person would do. He’s not an impersonal force as the JWs claim.

MatthewG · Jun 18, 2021

Oh I agree about love over puffed up knowledge and allowing others freedom of thought, and their freedom to seek and worship God in spirit and in truth; @Emily Nghiem .

APAK · Jun 18, 2021

MatthewG said:
~

The only understanding that has been made know to me about the trinity.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The Word was with God in the Beginning.
The Word was with God.
The Word was God.

Notice Word: Word was with with, and was God and was at the Beginning.

Now the Word: maybe it was in a the form of a shape; all I know is that have no idea what the Word looks like of God and have no ability to see it; Yes the Word was made flesh. This scripture however is still talking about in the Beginning; was the Word with, and was God.

To me the was God is this: the Word of God was a part of God. When God spoke; the Word then had the power to create. So God spoke through the Word -> in which Created the light, heavens, and earth, the Word was with God in the beginning.

The Word was with God, was apart of God (as the mouthpiece), and was with God in the beginning.

The Word - What does that look to do you?

~~~

The Holy Spirit - is not a person in my opinion because what does a spirit look like? Can you describe it to me exactly?

~~~

The Father : God ; our Father - Jesus Christ's Father, : God is a spirit ~ Not flesh and bones.

~~~

By and through scripture you can understand these concepts. Though many people like to argue against trinity and whatever, but no one will ever be 100% on it ever period in this lifetime.

My conclusions is that I just do not see 3 people in 1 God. Though do believe that God, the Son of God, and The Holy Spirit all agree and testify as one about the truth of the Heavenly Realms. I believe that Jesus Christ is the Lord God Almighty, the Lord, Son of God, King of Kings, Lord of Lords, and believe that the Lord Jesus Christ, and His Father are completely worthy of trusting and placing hope in.

IMO, a pretty good job and I agree with 90 percent of it.....the 10 percent within the last short paragraph I cannot agree with you on.

I DO NOT believe the Christ is the LORD God Almighty, when you said, "..Though do believe that God, the Son of God, and The Holy Spirit all agree and testify as one about the truth of the Heavenly Realms. I believe that Jesus Christ is the Lord God Almighty, the Lord, Son of God, King of Kings, Lord of Lords..."

And with what you wrote up to that point, I stunned how you could draw that conclusion. I love you quick assessment of the word or Word. The word was and is the expression, the mind and voice of the Almighty God who is the Father of Christ. And yes the Father created all.

And this Word or the mind and voice of God Almighty, became the mind and voice of Jesus/Yahshua (became flesh) as I read and understand scripture.. John 1:14.

APAK

MatthewG · Jun 18, 2021

Curtis · Jun 18, 2021

APAK said:
IMO, a pretty good job and I agree with 90 percent of it.....the 10 percent within the last short paragraph I cannot agree with you on.

I DO NOT believe the Christ is the LORD God Almighty, when you said, "..Though do believe that God, the Son of God, and The Holy Spirit all agree and testify as one about the truth of the Heavenly Realms. I believe that Jesus Christ is the Lord God Almighty, the Lord, Son of God, King of Kings, Lord of Lords..."

And with what you wrote up to that point, I stunned how you could draw that conclusion. I love you quick assessment of the word or Word. The word was and is the expression, the mind and voice of the Almighty God who is the Father of Christ. And yes the Father created all.

And this Word or the mind and voice of God Almighty, became the mind and voice of Jesus/Yahshua (became flesh) as I read and understand scripture.. John 1:14.

APAK

Your problem is that Jesus is BEFORE all things that were created, and MADE ALL THINGS that were made - therefore the creator of all, cannot be a created being.

Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.

Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Your other problem is, God said He created everything by HIMSELF alone.

Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Whereas a man could pay for a house to be designed and built by others, and still say, I built this house, and technically not be lying - but if he says, I built this house ALONE by MYSELF that would be a lie.

The fact that God says He created the heavens and earth ALONE, by HIMSELF means He did not create Jesus, who then made everything for Him.

Thus there is either a huge contradiction in scripture, or Jesus was WITH GOD and WAS GOD in the beginning, just as John 1 plainly says, and the ONE God manifest as three persons made the heavens and the earth.

Emily Nghiem · Jun 18, 2021

Curtis said:
Your problem is that Jesus is BEFORE all things that were created, and MADE ALL THINGS that were made - therefore the creator of all, cannot be a created being.

Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.

Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Your other problem is, God said He created everything by HIMSELF alone.

Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Whereas a man could pay for a house to be designed and built by others, and still say, I built this house, and technically not be lying - but if he says, I built this house ALONE by MYSELF that would be a lie.

The fact that God says He created the heavens and earth ALONE, by HIMSELF means He did not create Jesus, who then made everything for Him.

Thus there is either a huge contradiction in scripture, or Jesus was WITH GOD and WAS GOD in the beginning, just as John 1 plainly says, and the ONE God manifest as three persons made the heavens and the earth.

Dear @APAK and @Curtis
The way all this makes sense to me without conflict
1. God's Universal all encompassing Truth is the Kingdom of God, where nothing is greater than God
2. Jesus is God's Divine Authority of JUSTICE where the one Mediator reconciles the laws of God with natural laws of man, not by compromising God for man's laws of justice but fulfilling the law to satisfy both. Not to abolish but to fulfill.
3. The Holy Spirit is the peace and comfort when we are set free by agreeing in Christ Jesus as Disciples and establishing God's true laws and will as the Kingdom of God.

So all things are created and governed by God's Justice which Jesus embodies and communicates to humanity. While God's greater laws plans truth and knowledge is still greater than what we can receive and know through faith in Christ Jesus.

Ronald Nolette · Jun 18, 2021

Curtis said:
Too bad that the word catholic in the first century meant UNIVERSAL and didn’t refer to the Roman Catholic sect at all, as the RCC wants us to believe.

Of course the Holy Spirit is a person- he speaks, reasons, commands, can be grieved - all things that a person would do. He’s not an impersonal force as the JWs claim.

Well the Word is Jesus and not the Holy Spirit. the only thing we know of the Holy Spirit is that in His only manifestation He came down like a dove!

theefaith · Jun 18, 2021

Emily Nghiem said:
Dear @MatthewG
Some people just relate to God as one.
Others relate to God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit.

When people use different languages or terms for concepts, our brains can even show different patterns. The neural conditions, associations, and networks are different from one person to the next.

Each of us is unique and has our own relationship with God through Christ.
We do not have to see or say things the same way.

no Emily sorry but we don’t
There is only one Covenant and one mediator, 1 Tim 2:5 no personal savior but salvation and the new covenant is for all people Lk 2:10-11 with a common salvation jude 1:3 not a relationship without faith And the sacraments Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38 acts 2:38-39 ez 36:25-27

The Only Problem With The Trinity

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