The Only Problem With The Trinity

[Emily Nghiem]

no Emily sorry but we don’t
There is only one Covenant and one mediator, 1 Tim 2:5 no personal savior but salvation and the new covenant is for all people Lk 2:10-11 with a common salvation jude 1:3 not a relationship without faith And the sacraments Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38 acts 2:38-39 ez 36:25-27

Yes only Christ Jesus.
Even He used cultural Parables to teach illiterate farmers and fishers about the Kingdom of God in working man's terms

The Lord's Authority is over all people, tribes and dominions and can speak to each soul.

It amazes me to see how the ONE Message through Christ Jesus as Messiah for all
reaches people using their own experiences in life, no matter what language they use.

My own mother who is Vietnamese Buddhist could NOT understand forgiveness as it is presented in Christianity. She got lost in why are people doing wrong to each other in the first place?

It took a Buddhist Monk to explain how we treat others cannot rely on how they treat us. He explained to her using Buddhist terms she was brought up with as her native ethics. She somehow got it that way, which is roundabout to me.

God still speaks to people THROUGH CHRIST alone. How they ask, and how God answers may not look the same to us.

Our manmade languages and perceptions are not a barrier to God, but can be a barrier to man if we do not forgive our different ways.

As the Bible says: as we forgive others, so are we forgiven. If we do not forgive others, God will not grant us forgiveness either.

The way we ask to receive God's grace and salvation is agreeing to forgive.

Matthew 6:14-15

 

[theefaith]

View attachment 15683
Yes only Christ Jesus.
Even He used cultural Parables to teach illiterate farmers and fishers about the Kingdom of God in working man's terms

The Lord's Authority is over all people, tribes and dominions and can speak to each soul.

It amazes me to see how the ONE Message through Christ Jesus as Messiah for all
reaches people using their own experiences in life, no matter what language they use.

My own mother who is Vietnamese Buddhist could NOT understand forgiveness as it is presented in Christianity. She got lost in why are people doing wrong to each other in the first place?

It took a Buddhist Monk to explain how we treat others cannot rely on how they treat us. He explained to her using Buddhist terms she was brought up with as her native ethics. She somehow got it that way, which is roundabout to me.

God still speaks to people THROUGH CHRIST alone. How they ask, and how God answers may not look the same to us.

Our manmade languages and perceptions are not a barrier to God, but can be a barrier to man if we do not forgive our different ways.

As the Bible says: as we forgive others, so are we forgiven. If we do not forgive others, God will not grant us forgiveness either.

The way we ask to receive God's grace and salvation is agreeing to forgive.

Matthew 6:14-15

faith and baptism

See below
It’s a lot I know take your time

 

[theefaith]

Sacraments instituted by Christ for the salvation of souls!

Not by “faith alone”
“Faith alone” not biblical
“Faith alone” never given in prophesy in the OT.
You may think “Accept Jesus Christ as you personal Lord and savior” is biblical but there is no such verse in your bible!

Faith and the sacraments in the church founded by the authority Christ on Peter and the apostles is biblical!

Faith and baptism is the biblical initiation into the new covenant and member is Christ and His holy church!
Ez 36:25-27 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38

Merits of christ’s passion, death, and precious blood are applied in the sacraments! Jn 1:16

Colossians 1:20
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Matt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Rom 3:24
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

1 pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Heb 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Acts 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Lk 1: 72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,

There is only one true church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles and their successors is the new covenant body of Christ! Matt 1:18 & Jn 10:16 one fold

1 Timothy 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Christ and His church are one: acts 9 why persecute me?

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


Sacraments are the fruit of the sacrifice!
The holy sacrifice of Christ, His passion, blood, and death producing unlimited fruits of divine grace, actual and sanctifying grace! Jn 1:29 Jn 1:16-17 Jn 10:10


The promise (sacred oath or sacrament) of the Father acts 2:38-39 with reference to ez 36:25-27 Also a mystery
Mk 4:11 Eph 5:32 eph 6:19 1 Tim 3:9 3:16 Col 1:27 2:2 4:3

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Jn 3:5 born again by water and the spirit.

Heb 7:21 For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec
(Oath = sacrament)

Hebrews 8:6
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. Based on Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:


A promise is a sacred oath or sacrament!
Baptismal regeneration is the promise of the Father for union in the new covenant!

The church and the seven sacraments are necessary for salvation

Better covenant on better promises

2 Timothy 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

Life of supernatural grace merited by Christ in His passion and death!

An oath to sacramental life in the new covenant in union with the mediator and communion with God, and the saints!

Promise of the Father acts 2:23-39
Promise is an oath and an oath is a sacrament! This promise of the sacrament of baptism refers to ez. 36:25-27

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.


1 Pet 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark all died and outside the church there is no salvation!)

 

[APAK]

Your problem is that Jesus is BEFORE all things that were created, and MADE ALL THINGS that were made - therefore the creator of all, cannot be a created being.

Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.

Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Your other problem is, God said He created everything by HIMSELF alone.

Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Whereas a man could pay for a house to be designed and built by others, and still say, I built this house, and technically not be lying - but if he says, I built this house ALONE by MYSELF that would be a lie.

The fact that God says He created the heavens and earth ALONE, by HIMSELF means He did not create Jesus, who then made everything for Him.

Thus there is either a huge contradiction in scripture, or Jesus was WITH GOD and WAS GOD in the beginning, just as John 1 plainly says, and the ONE God manifest as three persons made the heavens and the earth.

I do like your candor Curtis, not like some folks that cannot bring themselves to make a decent and honest assessment of someone else's view.

You are pretty well on target about my views..at least 80 percent. Not a riddle although I do really believe that God created all, and it was not his Son or by his Son, it was by his Father, alone. And Jesus was NOT before all things, as in before the physical creation. There was only his Father from the beginning as I read and understand scripture.

You see Col 1:16 as the beginning of creation and with Christ and if you look at the entire context, it cannot be possible. It is all about Christ's 'creation' for the purpose of nurturing the Church, and establishing structures in heaven and earth for this purpose after his ascension.

And as I said previously, verse 17 is about Christ being before 'all' (a very specific 'all' and to one audience), in him of the new creation, the church, his Spirit, he holds it 'all' together, as its head. And Isa 44:24 is all about the Father, the only God, not his birthed Son.

That is the void between us, essentially.....

 

[Curtis]

You see Col 1:16 as the beginning of creation and with Christ and if you look at the entire context, it cannot be possible. It is all about Christ's 'creation' for the purpose of nurturing the Church, and establishing structures in heaven and earth for this purpose after his ascension.

And as I said previously, verse 17 is about Christ being before 'all' (a very specific 'all' and to one audience), in him of the new creation, the church, his Spirit, he holds it 'all' together, as its head. And Isa 44:24 is all about the Father, the only God, not his birthed Son.

Those with your view also quote this:

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

This is used to prove Jesus is the first to be created. The problem here is it actually says in the koine Greek, that Jesus was the beginner, and author of the creation.

He’s the beginning in the sense He’s the beginner of creation

This fact is discussed by scholars with degrees in biblical languages, and is reflected in other translations:

Rev 3:14 "To the messenger of the church in Laodicea, write: 'The Amen, the witness who is faithful and true, the originator of God's creation, says this: ISV

Rev 3:14 To the angel of Messiah’s community in Laodicea write: “Thus says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Originator of God’s creation: TLV

JF&B :
beginning of the creation of God — not he whom God created first, but as in Col 1:15-18 (see on Col 1:15-18), the Beginner of all creation, its originating instrument. All creation would not be represented adoring Him, if He were but one of themselves. His being the Creator is a strong guarantee for His faithfulness as “the Witness and Amen.”

David Guzik:
2. (Rev 3:14 b) Jesus describes Himself to the church at Laodicea.

These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God:

a. These things says the Amen: Jesus is the Amen, the “so be it,” the “it is done.” As 2Co 1:20 says, For all the promises of God in Him are “Yes,” and in Him “Amen.” Jesus is “the personification and the affirmation of the truth of God.” (Barclay)

b. Jesus is the Faithful and True Witness, and this is a contrast to the Laodiceans, who will be shown to be neither faithful nor true.

c. Jesus is the beginning of the creation of God. The idea behind the word for beginning [the ancient Greek word arche] is that of a “ruler, source, or origin,” not of first in a sequential order. This verse does not teach that Jesus was the first being created, but that He is the ruler, source, and origin of all creation. It has the idea of first in prominence more than first in sequence.

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Emily Nghiem]

I do like your candor Curtis, not like some folks that cannot bring themselves to make a decent and honest assessment of someone else's view.

You are pretty well on target about my views..at least 80 percent. Not a riddle although I do really believe that God created all, and it was not his Son or by his Son, it was by his Father, alone. And Jesus was NOT before all things, as in before the physical creation. There was only his Father from the beginning as I read and understand scripture.

You see Col 1:16 as the beginning of creation and with Christ and if you look at the entire context, it cannot be possible. It is all about Christ's 'creation' for the purpose of nurturing the Church, and establishing structures in heaven and earth for this purpose after his ascension.

And as I said previously, verse 17 is about Christ being before 'all' (a very specific 'all' and to one audience), in him of the new creation, the church, his Spirit, he holds it 'all' together, as its head. And Isa 44:24 is all about the Father, the only God, not his birthed Son.

That is the void between us, essentially.....

From our human level, I see Jesus as God's Authority of Justice or Law or "Word of God" embodied in the people/church as a subset of God the Author of All things including Jesus as Perfect Justice that GOVERNS all laws as The Lord of lords.

As for First Person, Second or Third:
When we experience God's love or truth directly between us and God, that's First Person as the Father.

When we receive God's truth or love IN RELATION to a neighbor through Christ Jesus governing that relationship, that is God manifesting in Second Person.

When we see God's love or truth witnessed to us by Other People interacting and uniting in Christ that is the Holy Spirit that brings faith in Peace to all humanity by Third Person witnessing.

What is so amazing about the Father Son and Holy Spirit is finding people see this different ways. One friend said she saw it as Jesus being the Body of the Church, and the Holy Spirit connected us with God. So she saw that in the middle but I put Jesus as the Mediator connecting humanity on earth with God's Heavenly Kingdom. It is clear we share the same faith, but ever curious to me that we represent this in different ways, yet it is all God's universal truth connecting us in Christ.

 

[APAK]

From our human level, I see Jesus as God's Authority of Justice or Law or "Word of God" embodied in the people/church as a subset of God the Author of All things including Jesus as Perfect Justice that GOVERNS all laws as The Lord of lords.

As for First Person, Second or Third:
When we experience God's love or truth directly between us and God, that's First Person as the Father.

When we receive God's truth or love IN RELATION to a neighbor through Christ Jesus governing that relationship, that is God manifesting in Second Person.

When we see God's love or truth witnessed to us by Other People interacting and uniting in Christ that is the Holy Spirit that brings faith in Peace to all humanity by Third Person witnessing.

What is so amazing about the Father Son and Holy Spirit is finding people see this different ways. One friend said she saw it as Jesus being the Body of the Church, and the Holy Spirit connected us with God. So she saw that in the middle but I put Jesus as the Mediator connecting humanity on earth with God's Heavenly Kingdom. It is clear we share the same faith, but ever curious to me that we represent this in different ways, yet it is all God's universal truth connecting us in Christ.

Emily, I've been reading some of your posts now and this one. I really do not know what is your main message or what you believe in or the impression you want to leave. I see a blend of many things in your posts. The Trinity, non-Trinity, people seeing the Christ, the Father and his Spirit all differently and yet that is apparently no big deal..etc....I'm a little confused here.

APAK

 

[Curtis]

Well the Word is Jesus and not the Holy Spirit. the only thing we know of the Holy Spirit is that in His only manifestation He came down like a dove!

Part of the mystery of the trinity: Jesus said that He was going away, and would ask the Father to send another comforter, the Holy Spirit, but then said of that, I will not leave you comfortless, I WILL COME TO YOU.

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

According to that Jesus left bodily, sent His own spirit to be our comforter, which is a big mystery. He’s in heaven at the father’s right hand, bodily, but He lives in our hearts Eph 3:17, which Paul called a mystery in Colossians 1,27

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Part of the mystery of the trinity: Jesus said that He was going away, and would ask the Father to send another comforter, the Holy Spirit, but then said of that, I will not leave you comfortless, I WILL COME TO YOU.

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

According to that Jesus left bodily, sent His own spirit to be our comforter, which is a big mystery. He’s in heaven at the father’s right hand, bodily, but He lives in our hearts Eph 3:17, which Paul called a mystery in Colossians 1,27

That could be a weak defense, for Jesus promised to return to earth one day and these passages could also be construed as that return. WE know Jesus is in heaven right now ever living to make intercession for the saints and to prepare a place for us. Though, through the Spirit we have the FAther and Son with us as well

 

[Curtis]

That could be a weak defense, for Jesus promised to return to earth one day and these passages could also be construed as that return. WE know Jesus is in heaven right now ever living to make intercession for the saints and to prepare a place for us. Though, through the Spirit we have the FAther and Son with us as well

Except it was right after He just said that He was sending us a comforter to us while He’s in heaven, then said He won’t leave us comfortless, BECAUSE He will come to us, not UNTIL He comes to us again.

Romans 8 also strongly hints that Jesus and the HS are the same:

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Emily Nghiem]

Emily, I've been reading some of your posts now and this one. I really do not know what is your main message or what you believe in or the impression you want to leave. I see a blend of many things in your posts. The Trinity, non-Trinity, people seeing the Christ, the Father and his Spirit all differently and yet that is apparently no big deal..etc....I'm a little confused here.

APAK

Thank you @APAK
I approach this by spiritually connecting with people by our common faith in God and Christ first. Then the way we say things follows from that connection.

If someone relates to God through the Trinity, sure we can compare and share what we see and mean by that.

If someone does not, then I would start with the way they DO see God. Once I know their language, then we can talk about the meanings of God the Father, the Son Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.

If they do not use terms at all for God or Jesus, then I start with secular meanings they DO believe in that motivates them to seek "truth and justice".

For example, one friend didn't think Christianity applied to him. But he believed in Respect for Truth, Respect for Freedom, Respect for Humanity and the Environment. So I told him the level of Jesus corresponds with the second level of free will and conscience where LAWS seek to define the Relationship between individuals in the physical world with Universal Truth on the Collective level of God which is faith based.

I use the "trinity" in his system to align with God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit, so we can connect in spirit first. Then work from there to communicate by terms that correspond to the levels that God relates or manifests to us.

So @APAK
With each person, they may experience or express their understanding of God's truth in their own way or language.

It helps me to connect and understand them if I can ALIGN what they use for the three levels, or how they see each level.

The Jehovah's Witnesses also have a unique system:
YHWH is called Jehovah
Jesus the Son is not seen as the part of God we embody but they do see Jesus as One with God in spirit as we are supposed to be One with God's will
And they split the last level in two:
Calling the Holy Spirit God's Active Force which to me is an explanation not literally a name in the Bible like Comforter or Spirit of Truth
And calling Michael as Jesus, which I can only understand as mixing Michael (or God's Mercy) with the Holy Spirit that accompanies Jesus

I cannot help or change the fact the JW Elders and Tribes are given this configuration to follow, which causes division and confusion.

I can only use what they give me to ALIGN where we agree on Father Son and Holy Spirit, while taking into account the strange distortion added by JW, where they do not get the divine role of Jesus as embodying God's Word or Law on the level that humanity can embrace. And they mixup Michael with Jesus, which I can only make sense of as mixing the last two levels of Jesus and the Holy Spirit as "interchangeable".

Each person has their way, so I use their take on the Trinity or Father/Son/Holy Spirit to understand where that person is coming from.

And where or why we differ.

We could never discuss the issues if we argue over the Trinity.

I start from where they are, then work toward resolving and understanding the rest.

This works for secular nontheists, Buddhists and others who don't necessarily get the meaning of the Trinity directly.

 

[Enoch111]

all I know is that I have no idea what the Word looks like

Well since the Lord Jesus Christ is the Word of God what seems to be your problem? He is described as the Word of God, the Creator. He is also revealed as Jesus of Nazareth. There is absolutely no problem with the Trinity or the deity of Christ when you study the Bible carefully.

 

[APAK]

Thank you @APAK
I approach this by spiritually connecting with people by our common faith in God and Christ first. Then the way we say things follows from that connection.

If someone relates to God through the Trinity, sure we can compare and share what we see and mean by that.

If someone does not, then I would start with the way they DO see God. Once I know their language, then we can talk about the meanings of God the Father, the Son Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.

If they do not use terms at all for God or Jesus, then I start with secular meanings they DO believe in that motivates them to seek "truth and justice".

For example, one friend didn't think Christianity applied to him. But he believed in Respect for Truth, Respect for Freedom, Respect for Humanity and the Environment. So I told him the level of Jesus corresponds with the second level of free will and conscience where LAWS seek to define the Relationship between individuals in the physical world with Universal Truth on the Collective level of God which is faith based.

I use the "trinity" in his system to align with God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit, so we can connect in spirit first. Then work from there to communicate by terms that correspond to the levels that God relates or manifests to us.

So @APAK
With each person, they may experience or express their understanding of God's truth in their own way or language.

It helps me to connect and understand them if I can ALIGN what they use for the three levels, or how they see each level.

The Jehovah's Witnesses also have a unique system:
YHWH is called Jehovah
Jesus the Son is not seen as the part of God we embody but they do see Jesus as One with God in spirit as we are supposed to be One with God's will
And they split the last level in two:
Calling the Holy Spirit God's Active Force which to me is an explanation not literally a name in the Bible like Comforter or Spirit of Truth
And calling Michael as Jesus, which I can only understand as mixing Michael (or God's Mercy) with the Holy Spirit that accompanies Jesus

I cannot help or change the fact the JW Elders and Tribes are given this configuration to follow, which causes division and confusion.

I can only use what they give me to ALIGN where we agree on Father Son and Holy Spirit, while taking into account the strange distortion added by JW, where they do not get the divine role of Jesus as embodying God's Word or Law on the level that humanity can embrace. And they mixup Michael with Jesus, which I can only make sense of as mixing the last two levels of Jesus and the Holy Spirit as "interchangeable".

Each person has their way, so I use their take on the Trinity or Father/Son/Holy Spirit to understand where that person is coming from.

And where or why we differ.

We could never discuss the issues if we argue over the Trinity.

I start from where they are, then work toward resolving and understanding the rest.

This works for secular nontheists, Buddhists and others who don't necessarily get the meaning of the Trinity directly.

Well you have a novel way then of communicating YHWH, God Almighty, to others via your 3 levels: of the Father, Son, and Spirit as you define them.

I have of course have a few questions and maybe more...

Do people you are trying to reach understand what you have told me thus far? Do you think they might not get your purpose? And what is your purpose of communicating with someone this way anyway, besides finding a common mode of communication? To make them 'feel good' or to acknowledge to them 'I know where you are coming from' etc? There has to be more to this communication exercise...

What if someone does not have the 3 levels in their spiritual toolkit, like me. I have only 2 of your levels?

Thanks, I'm a curious soul

APAK

 

[Enoch111]

According to that Jesus left bodily, sent His own spirit to be our comforter, which is a big mystery.

No Jesus sent the Holy Spirit as the divine Comforter. He is not Christ's spirit. But Jesus also indwells the believer. Indeed God (the triune Godhead) indwells the believer according to Scripture (John 4:12-16).
No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

When John speaks of the invisible God, he is speaking of God the Father. When he speaks of "his Spirit" (capital S) he is speaking of God the Holy Spirit (the Comforter). When he speaks of "the Son" he is speaking of the Lord Jesus Christ. Anti-Trinitarians do not have a leg to stand on.

 

[Waiting on him]

Your problem is that Jesus is BEFORE all things that were created, and MADE ALL THINGS that were made - therefore the creator of all, cannot be a created being.

Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.

Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Your other problem is, God said He created everything by HIMSELF alone.

Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Whereas a man could pay for a house to be designed and built by others, and still say, I built this house, and technically not be lying - but if he says, I built this house ALONE by MYSELF that would be a lie.

The fact that God says He created the heavens and earth ALONE, by HIMSELF means He did not create Jesus, who then made everything for Him.

Thus there is either a huge contradiction in scripture, or Jesus was WITH GOD and WAS GOD in the beginning, just as John 1 plainly says, and the ONE God manifest as three persons made the heavens and the earth.

Maybe stop and consider, the creation in reference is a new creation, seeing its beginnings at Calvary?

 

[Curtis]

Maybe stop and consider, the creation in reference is a new creation, seeing its beginnings at Calvary?

No. The new creation is believers who are spiritually reborn.

The scripture I posted refers to the physical creation in Genesis 1, not the spiritual rebirth that makes us a new creation NOR refers to the New heavens and earth.

 

[Waiting on him]

No. The new creation is believers who are spiritually reborn.

I believe this is the only creation of any significance. I also believe this to be the only creation spoken of in the entirety of scripture, because it all points to Christ, creator of the worlds as referenced in Hebrews.

 

[Waiting on him]

We are Christ’s new creation, lol we have no need of the sun or moon.

 

[amadeus]

We are Christ’s new creation, lol we have no need of the sun or moon.

"And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God," Rev 21:10

"And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof." Rev 21:23

"Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid." Matt 5:14

 

[Enoch111]

I believe this is the only creation of any significance.

Not so. The New Heavens and the New Earth are equally significant. In fact they are a divine necessity.