The Only Problem With The Trinity

[Curtis]

Maybe stop and consider, the creation in reference is a new creation, seeing its beginnings at Calvary?

All means all. ALL THINGS were made by Him, not some things.

John 1:1,10,14 Jesus aka the word, was WITH God and yet also WAS God, in the beginning, referring to Genesis 1 - and He, the word, made all things, including the world, then was made flesh and dwelt among us (was born as a man) in the world that He made.

Shalom Aleichem.

 

[Waiting on him]

Not so. The New Heavens and the New Earth are equally significant. In fact they are a divine necessity.

Their one in the same IMO.

 

[Waiting on him]

All means all. ALL THINGS were made by Him, not some things.

John 1:1,10,14 Jesus aka the word, was WITH God and yet also WAS God, in the beginning, referring to Genesis 1 - and He, the word, made all things, including the world, then was made flesh and dwelt among us (was born as a man) in the world that He made.

Shalom Aleichem.

So why is it the Holy Spirit had to descend Upon Him?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Except it was right after He just said that He was sending us a comforter to us while He’s in heaven, then said He won’t leave us comfortless, BECAUSE He will come to us, not UNTIL He comes to us again.

Romans 8 also strongly hints that Jesus and the HS are the same:

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Shalom Aleichem

Yep because God is triune and share just one divine essence haviing the spirit is the same as havingf the Son. NOt in person but in essence.

But remember when Jesus came out of the water at Johns Baptism? All three members of the trinity were present.

 

[theefaith]

Jesus worshiped and has all authority = God!

Matt 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

 

[Desire Of All Nations]

Well since the Lord Jesus Christ is the Word of God what seems to be your problem? He is described as the Word of God, the Creator. He is also revealed as Jesus of Nazareth. There is absolutely no problem with the Trinity or the deity of Christ when you study the Bible carefully.

There are plenty of problems with the Trinity doctrine, but here are are just a few of the more glaring ones:

1. The Bible says no human being has ever known the of the Father's existence prior to Christ revealing Him(Jhn 1:18, 6:46). Trinitarians' position that the Bible teaches the Trinity throughout the Bible 100% hinges on the premise that the Old Testament writers knew of the Father's existence, and the aforementioned passages show that they clearly didn't. They only knew of the existence of 1 God Being, and that God was the Being who eventually became Christ.

2. Matthew 1 presents another problem with the Trinity in verse 18 where it says Jesus was begotten by the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit is a Person as trinitarians assume, that would mean the Holy Spirit is the Father and not the God Christ called the Father. Incidentally, Gabriel calls the Holy Spirit the "power of the Highest" in Luke 1 instead of referring to the Holy Spirit as a Person.

3. Another glaring issue is the fact that Paul never once refers to Holy Spirit as a Person or plainly acknowledges the existence of a divine trinity in the things he taught or even his greetings to the Godhead at the beginning of his letters. There is a completely consistent theme of Paul acknowledging, thanking, or praising Christ and His Father. For Paul to omit the existence of the Holy Spirit as a Person would be pretty disrespectful, considering he was inspired to leave out such an important detail if it were true.

 

[Enoch111]

Trinitarians' position that the Bible teaches the Trinity throughout the Bible 100% hinges on the premise that the Old Testament writers knew of the Father's existence, and the aforementioned passages show that they clearly didn't.

That is just nonsense, since Jesus as the Angel of the LORD appeared to Moses and declared that He was the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. This was also the Angel who accompanied the Israelites while they traveled through the wilderness. Yet the glory of God was seen at the tabernacle.

Since the Hebrews knew of the invisible God, they also knew that one who was visible was also God. And then we have Daniel's prophecy of the Son of Man coming to the Ancient of Days and being given all the kingdoms of the world. Christ identified Himself with the Son of Man and called Himself the Son of Man consistently.

Anti-Trinitarians LOVE TO FOOL THEMSELVES. And then try to fool others. But God does not suffer fools gladly.

 

[Desire Of All Nations]

That is just nonsense, since Jesus as the Angel of the LORD appeared to Moses and declared that He was the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. This was also the Angel who accompanied the Israelites while they traveled through the wilderness. Yet the glory of God was seen at the tabernacle.

Since the Hebrews knew of the invisible God, they also knew that one who was visible was also God. And then we have Daniel's prophecy of the Son of Man coming to the Ancient of Days and being given all the kingdoms of the world. Christ identified Himself with the Son of Man and called Himself the Son of Man consistently.

Anti-Trinitarians LOVE TO FOOL THEMSELVES. And then try to fool others. But God does not suffer fools gladly.

It's not nonsense since as i have already stated, John specifically wrote that NOBODY was ever aware of the Father's existence and that Christ came to declare it. If the Father was known by humanity, then there would be a passage that shows the religious leaders of Christ's day would've known about it. And yet they didn't, which is partly why people couldn't accept what Christ taught.

You're doing a whole lot of stone throwing, but you didn't support any of accusations with anything biblical passage. Trinitarians can insist all they want that the OT teaches the Trinity, but insisting something is true without concretely proving it won't make it true.

 

[Enoch111]

It's not nonsense since as i have already stated, John specifically wrote that NOBODY was ever aware of the Father's existence and that Christ came to declare it.

That is not what John wrote. what he wrote is that no man has seen the invisible God -- God the Father -- at any time. And that is true. When God met with men before Christ's incarnation, it was the pre-incarnate Christ, coming as "the Angel of the LORD" to speak to men. That was the second person of the Godhead. But were the Hebrews aware that God the Father was distinct from God the Son? Absolutely.

 

[Curtis]

It's not nonsense since as i have already stated, John specifically wrote that NOBODY was ever aware of the Father's existence and that Christ came to declare it. If the Father was known by humanity, then there would be a passage that shows the religious leaders of Christ's day would've known about it. And yet they didn't, which is partly why people couldn't accept what Christ taught.

You're doing a whole lot of stone throwing, but you didn't support any of accusations with anything biblical passage. Trinitarians can insist all they want that the OT teaches the Trinity, but insisting something is true without concretely proving it won't make it true.

What bible version do you use?

My bible says Moses met God and spoke to Him face to face, as a man speaks to a friend:

Exo 33:9 And it came to pass, when Moses entered into the Tent, the pillar of cloud descended, and stood at the door of the Tent: and Jehovah spake with Moses.

Exo 33:10 And all the people saw the pillar of cloud stand at the door of the Tent: and all the people rose up and worshipped, every man at his tent door.

Exo 33:11 And Jehovah spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his minister Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the Tent.

Next - God appeared unto Abraham as God Almighty:

Exo 6:1 And Jehovah said unto Moses, Now shalt thou see what I will do to Pharaoh: for by a strong hand shall he let them go, and by a strong hand shall he drive them out of his land.

Exo 6:2 And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am Jehovah:

Exo 6:3 and I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, as God Almighty; but by my name Jehovah I was not known to them.

Notice Jacob is one of those God appeared to.

Jacob wrestled with God all night long, then named that place Peniel, which translates “I have seen God face to face, and lived”.

Gen 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

 

[Curtis]

It's not nonsense since as i have already stated, John specifically wrote that NOBODY was ever aware of the Father's existence and that Christ came to declare it. If the Father was known by humanity, then there would be a passage that shows the religious leaders of Christ's day would've known about it. And yet they didn't, which is partly why people couldn't accept what Christ taught.

You're doing a whole lot of stone throwing, but you didn't support any of accusations with anything biblical passage. Trinitarians can insist all they want that the OT teaches the Trinity, but insisting something is true without concretely proving it won't make it true.

Yes the plurality of God is very evident in the OT.

Genesis 1 states, in the beginning ELOHIM said let US make man in OUR image.

Elohim is the plural form of Gods name, literally translating as GODS in Hebrew.

Thus Genesis 1 says in Hebrew, in the beginning GODS said, let US make man in OUR image.

Then there’s the fact of Jesus appearing in the Old Testament:

Because Jesus is God the word, who left the form of God, to take the form of a man (Philippians 2:6-7), He can transcend time, since time is the fourth dimension and God created the space-time continuum.


Thus in the many instances in the Old Testament where God in the form of a man appears, it’s Jesus - the only manifestation of God in the flesh.


When Jacob wrestled with a man all night long, who touched his body and put a hip out of joint, and renamed him Israel, Jacob named the place Peniel which means, I’ve seen God FACE TO FACE, and lived, that was Jesus - the only manifestation of God as a man, that exists:


Gen 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.


Gen 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for, said he, I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.


When God spoke with Moses “ face to face, as a man speaks to s friend” - that also was Jesus


Exo 33:11 And Jehovah spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his minister Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the Tent.


My favorite is Genesis 18:1where the Hebrew states that YHWH appeared to Abraham as a man, with two other men present with Him.


Abraham ends up washing His feet, then has a conversation with YHWH about sparing Sodom from destruction- when negotiations broke down because not even ten righteous were left in Sodom, God destroys Sodom in chapter 19 by raining fire and brimstone on the city, and scripture says that the Jehovah on earth that Abraham met and talked to, rained down fire and brimstone FROM the Jehovah in heaven:


Gen 19:24 Then Jehovahrained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Jehovah out of heaven;


Jehovah in the form of a man, was on earth at the same time Jehovah was in heaven sending down destruction on Sodom.


There are many more examples of Jesus appearing in the Old Testament as God in flesh form.


These are prima facie evidence that Jesus is in fact God the Logos manifest i

 

[Emily Nghiem]

Well you have a novel way then of communicating YHWH, God Almighty, to others via your 3 levels: of the Father, Son, and Spirit as you define them.

I have of course have a few questions and maybe more...

Do people you are trying to reach understand what you have told me thus far? Do you think they might not get your purpose? And what is your purpose of communicating with someone this way anyway, besides finding a common mode of communication? To make them 'feel good' or to acknowledge to them 'I know where you are coming from' etc? There has to be more to this communication exercise...

What if someone does not have the 3 levels in their spiritual toolkit, like me. I have only 2 of your levels?

Thanks, I'm a curious soul

APAK

It isn't a superficial or material comfort.
It is a higher sense of peace and connection from above, because we are connecting on a universal level beyond words.

I think you are concerned this isn't false talk, like pretending to agree in order to sell something.

That fake approach does not work.
When it comes to ppl's personal, deeply engrained religious and political beliefs,
they will resist any change unless it is
the universal gospel truth, and they recognize that and want that better answer.

I find people will defend their beliefs to the end, will be direct and transparent, and will not agree to compromise!

As for you and the 2 of the 3, how do you see the three and which one are you saying you do not have?

Thanks @APAK

 

[APAK]

It isn't a superficial or material comfort.
It is a higher sense of peace and connection from above, because we are connecting on a universal level beyond words.

I think you are concerned this isn't false talk, like pretending to agree in order to sell something.

That fake approach does not work.
When it comes to ppl's personal, deeply engrained religious and political beliefs,
they will resist any change unless it is
the universal gospel truth, and they recognize that and want that better answer.

I find people will defend their beliefs to the end, will be direct and transparent, and will not agree to compromise!

As for you and the 2 of the 3, how do you see the three and which one are you saying you do not have?

Thanks @APAK

Emily, can I bee so bold to deduce from your words here and from other posts of yours, that you believe in more than one kind of gospel that leads to salvation and immortality? And are there may roads that lead to salvation, by those of different religions in this world?

Thanks,

APAK

 

[Emily Nghiem]

Emily, can I bee so bold to deduce from your words here and from other posts of yours, that you believe in more than one kind of gospel that leads to salvation and immortality? And are there may roads that lead to salvation, by those of different religions in this world?

Thanks,

APAK

No @APAK there only one central path and authority for mediating/reconciliation with God through Christ.

But the languages of the tribes may be different.

Murder is still murder and wrong whether expressed using Church or State laws, Biblical or Constitutional, federal or state, or human or civil rights.

When you argue against wrongful death in civil court you cite civil laws as the language.
When in criminal court, the criminal laws address this differently.

Justice is still justice regardless which system you use to redress the grievance.

If secular humanists unite with Christians on universal peace and justice, the only Justice that brings peace universally is Jesus with the Holy Spirit.

There is only one God. So whatever is universal in bringing full unity has the be the same as the one God and Jesus, since there is only one by definition of the meaning of God and Jesus as unique and universal above all else.

Once we agree on that same spirit,
then we can translate it where it fulfills all other laws that express the standards or process of peace and justice.

Those terms of communicating can vary between people and cultures.

That part is relative since each soul is unique.

The message and meaning is universal.
The means of sharing it with each person can be as unique as each soul is different and understands and applies God's truth and wisdom in their own ways to their lives relations and situations.

If you are called as a Muslim you may teach the message of God through Christ using Islamic culture. Same with Buddhists who receive Christ and continue teaching Buddhists.

The Jewish who receive Christ Jesus teach their same traditions but fulfilled in Christ.

I see this same trend with other people as well. The Constitutionalists who receive or do not apply Jesus are two different approaches. I can see the difference it makes to understand and teach how Christ Jesus Authority changes how we teach apply and follow laws, rather than without faith in Christ Jesus.

We still use the same Constitutional laws, but the application interpretation and teaching becomes different in Christ.

 

[theefaith]

The Holy Spirit - is not a person in my opinion because what does a spirit look like? Can you describe it to me exactly?

You’re body is not what makes you a person but you’re spirit or soul
Intellect and volition

 

[Curtis]

No @APAK there only one central path and authority for mediating/reconciliation with God through Christ.

But the languages of the tribes may be different.

Murder is still murder and wrong whether expressed using Church or State laws, Biblical or Constitutional, federal or state, or human or civil rights.

When you argue against wrongful death in civil court you cite civil laws as the language.
When in criminal court, the criminal laws address this differently.

Justice is still justice regardless which system you use to redress the grievance.

If secular humanists unite with Christians on universal peace and justice, the only Justice that brings peace universally is Jesus with the Holy Spirit.

There is only one God. So whatever is universal in bringing full unity has the be the same as the one God and Jesus, since there is only one by definition of the meaning of God and Jesus as unique and universal above all else.

Once we agree on that same spirit,
then we can translate it where it fulfills all other laws that express the standards or process of peace and justice.

Those terms of communicating can vary between people and cultures.

That part is relative since each soul is unique.

The message and meaning is universal.
The means of sharing it with each person can be as unique as each soul is different and understands and applies God's truth and wisdom in their own ways to their lives relations and situations.

If you are called as a Muslim you may teach the message of God through Christ using Islamic culture. Same with Buddhists who receive Christ and continue teaching Buddhists.

The Jewish who receive Christ Jesus teach their same traditions but fulfilled in Christ.

I see this same trend with other people as well. The Constitutionalists who receive or do not apply Jesus are two different approaches. I can see the difference it makes to understand and teach how Christ Jesus Authority changes how we teach apply and follow laws, rather than without faith in Christ Jesus.

We still use the same Constitutional laws, but the application interpretation and teaching becomes different in Christ.

That’s not how salvation works.

To be saved absolutely requires belief that Jesus is the son of God.

Islam teaches that God has no son, which makes it an antichrist religion that no one can be saved by.

Judaism that rejects Jesus as messiah and as Gods son, is in the same boat - no salvation.

 

[Curtis]

The Holy Spirit - is not a person in my opinion because what does a spirit look like? Can you describe it to me exactly?

You’re body is not what makes you a person but you’re spirit or soul
Intellect and volition

Is God a person or an it?

The Holy Spirit is the third person of the trinity, and is God, but is not the father.

 

[MatthewG]

God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship him in spirit and truth.

 

[theefaith]

God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship him in spirit and truth.

And how do we do this?

 

[theefaith]

Is God a person or an it?

The Holy Spirit is the third person of the trinity, and is God, but is not the father.

True