Camels & Needles
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Luke 18:25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
"We know that there is no way that a camel can go through the eye of a needle, so put this in the reality of Jesus day. The cities of that day were walled cities, and beside the main gate was a very small gate called the needle gate. The main gate was always locked and secured at night with a guard standing guard. This small needle gate was small enough so that only one person, could enter at a time. If a camel came, it had to have the load removed and unsaddled, then go to its knees before the camel could come through the gate into the city. Then reload the camel on the other side the wall.
Jesus is using this to show how this rich man could come into the kingdom of God. This rich man had to unload his ill-gotten gains at the door, before entering into heaven. You just can't rip people off, and be in the kingdom of heaven."
http://www.theseason...luke/luke18.htm
"We know that there is no way that a camel can go through the eye of a needle, so put this in the reality of Jesus day. The cities of that day were walled cities, and beside the main gate was a very small gate called the needle gate. The main gate was always locked and secured at night with a guard standing guard. This small needle gate was small enough so that only one person, could enter at a time. If a camel came, it had to have the load removed and unsaddled, then go to its knees before the camel could come through the gate into the city. Then reload the camel on the other side the wall.
Jesus is using this to show how this rich man could come into the kingdom of God. This rich man had to unload his ill-gotten gains at the door, before entering into heaven. You just can't rip people off, and be in the kingdom of heaven."
http://www.theseason...luke/luke18.htm
jacobtaylor
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- Feb 11, 2011
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I just want to post an additional verse. I read it and have experienced it literally, I have not been rich like most would consider rich but the gathering / working / decision making process for accumulating money is distracting. I've been dirt poor on the street as well. I'll tell you, the Lord walks with those that walk alone in poverty, more so than with those that are driven to have more.
Pro 13:7 One pretends to be rich, yet has nothing; another pretends to be poor, yet has great wealth.
Pro 13:8 The ransom of a man’s life is his wealth, but a poor man hears no threat.
Ecclesiastes 7:12
Wisdom is a shelter
as money is a shelter,
but the advantage of knowledge is this:
Wisdom preserves those who have it.
Ecc 7:12
[sup]12[/sup]For the protection of wisdom is like[sup](N)[/sup] the protection of money,
and the advantage of knowledge is that[sup](O)[/sup] wisdom preserves the life of him who has it.
Pro 13:7 One pretends to be rich, yet has nothing; another pretends to be poor, yet has great wealth.
Pro 13:8 The ransom of a man’s life is his wealth, but a poor man hears no threat.
Ecclesiastes 7:12
Wisdom is a shelter
as money is a shelter,
but the advantage of knowledge is this:
Wisdom preserves those who have it.
Ecc 7:12
[sup]12[/sup]For the protection of wisdom is like[sup](N)[/sup] the protection of money,
and the advantage of knowledge is that[sup](O)[/sup] wisdom preserves the life of him who has it.
I beleive that he is literally talking about the eye of a needle, and he is speaking truth because rich people are blinded by their wealth and cant see God. But later on, maybe even soon after Jesus says 'but all things are possible with the Father'.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
So Jacob - now that I know you do not allow yourself to think about Bible verses - just memorize them and take them literally; what do you think about australia's commentary on the camel/needle analogy? Seems to mean that it took some thought - in fact, to take the verse literally provides a completely different understanding - what seems impossible is actually possible, but more difficult. Perhaps just opening the Bible and memorizing the verse might not be the best option?
jacobtaylor
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I've heard and read that same sermon from different teachers probably no less than 50 times in 33 years.
I dont memorize scripture the Lord brings it to remembrance.
I commented on the verse, from my personal experience being a christian in both plenty and wanting. In other words I've walked the walk.
I don't disagree with it but like I said its hardly his, hes simply parroting.
Matthew 6:24
[sup]24[/sup] “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.
as you can see the implication in the verse above of unloading the camel. = leaving one master outside and enter in. That means you don't go back out to get your worldly treasure.
And BTW this is something you dreamed up all by yourself. There is such a thing as proper and improper use of metaphors when trying to convey a message. Jesus did it frequently.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
So you think my comment to you was regarding whether or not Australia's commentary was original or not? That was not my point. Instead, I was pointing out the fact that his commentary went beyond the obvious, first glance reading of the scripture. Someone had to research and think about the culture, architecture and time period or the verse would not be interpreted correctly. Also, the verse is not about camels or needles - it is about the dangers of ownership. The Bible is not always easy to understand or obvious or clearly stated.
jacobtaylor
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No I think your comment to me is all about the bad taste I left in your mouth in your devil thread a few minuets ago.
Do you have something to add to these peoples thread or are you going to insite another argument with me? Take your fighting spirit back to your "the devils work thread "
I'll be happy to continue there. You don't have to drag your bad attitude into this thread as well <_< good night.
Robbie
New Member
I think the most important principle is "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
I've also heard the gate theory but it doesn't jive with me on that principle... because if just removing some luggage is what it took, it would be possible with man... but the main point was that what isn't possible with man is possible with God... so in other words Salavation with God is possible and not without...
Thanks to God for making the way and Jesus being the way... all worship to Them!!!
I've also heard the gate theory but it doesn't jive with me on that principle... because if just removing some luggage is what it took, it would be possible with man... but the main point was that what isn't possible with man is possible with God... so in other words Salavation with God is possible and not without...
Thanks to God for making the way and Jesus being the way... all worship to Them!!!
tomwebster
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So are you and Aspen going to turn this post into an argument also? All you both do is follow each other around from post to post and argue.
There is no reason not to think that Jesus was speaking literally. He was using the illustration as an example of something that could be done only with great difficulty. Even today the idea of micro pulverizing something as large as a camel so that it could be extruded through an aperture as small as the eye of a needle would be a daunting task. When the mind considers attempting this task with little or no technology, one can understand the disciples when they ask, "Who then can be saved?" It sounds like the disciples correctly estimated the difficulty Jesus cited.
We do not need to so quickly invent reasons to excuse what Jesus said. Our time might better be spent in contemplation of the point of His example. Jesus and the disciples had just met a man that professed a great desire to follow Jesus. Yet even this desire was insufficient to overcome the attachment he had for his riches. The illustration Jesus gave was to shed some light on the degree of difficulty people have who's faith (trust) is in their wealth (worldly security).
Since the average welfare recipient today lives a life of greater riches than most kings of history (indoor plumbing, central heat in the winter, year round food, and hot and cold running water), we might want to take a closer look at what Jesus is saying and the application it has for us.
If the bonds of wealth are so strong as to keep us captive to the world and its systems such that only the power of God can make us free, how much more should we cling to our Savior to resist returning to such captivity. Consider the application of this idea to;
1. Wives and mothers seeking employment outside the home.
2. Day care and public education.
3. New cars and homes.
4. Birth control.
5. 401K plans.
6. Social security.
7. College.
What exactly is the object of our faith?
We do not need to so quickly invent reasons to excuse what Jesus said. Our time might better be spent in contemplation of the point of His example. Jesus and the disciples had just met a man that professed a great desire to follow Jesus. Yet even this desire was insufficient to overcome the attachment he had for his riches. The illustration Jesus gave was to shed some light on the degree of difficulty people have who's faith (trust) is in their wealth (worldly security).
Since the average welfare recipient today lives a life of greater riches than most kings of history (indoor plumbing, central heat in the winter, year round food, and hot and cold running water), we might want to take a closer look at what Jesus is saying and the application it has for us.
If the bonds of wealth are so strong as to keep us captive to the world and its systems such that only the power of God can make us free, how much more should we cling to our Savior to resist returning to such captivity. Consider the application of this idea to;
1. Wives and mothers seeking employment outside the home.
2. Day care and public education.
3. New cars and homes.
4. Birth control.
5. 401K plans.
6. Social security.
7. College.
What exactly is the object of our faith?
Nomad
Post Tenebras Lux
jacobtaylor
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I see a different point, timf has a similar view I think. The man has not entered into the kingdom. In timf example he mentions the rich man that Jesus spoke to, Jesus told him to give all his riches to the poor and follow him. If you really love someone that love is made evident in action, Jesus asked the rich man for action, the rich man chose to walk away. John also came preaching an action of repentance. Paul speaks of the fruit of the spirit, these are seen as actions that manifest as the result of the Spirit within you.
So I don't completely agree that an unsaved or person looking to enter the kingdom is to sit on your laurels and wait for God to empower you. That sounds a bit Calvinistic. Even If your already saved were supposed to resist sin. An other example is an unfaithful spouse, what value is it for them to simply say I love you. If after words they go to the bar an flirt around. Their actions don't support their words. Same with the rich man that asked Jesus how do I enter the kingdom, he had a desire but his desire to keep his riches was stronger.
If you compare that account with the tax collector that climbed a tree Zacchaeus had a desire to see Jesus. Zacchaeus actions followed his desire. As soon as Zacchaeus came before the Lord he said below, his actions reflected his desire. Two rich men two different results. One with a heart for God and one without.
Luke 19:8-9
[sup]8[/sup]And Zacchaeus stood and said to the Lord, "Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor. And if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I restore it fourfold." [sup]9[/sup]And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, since he also is a son of Abraham. [sup]10[/sup]For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost."
Robbie
New Member
There's no way to the Father except by Jesus... without God it is impossible... with God it is... simple...
Yes disciple... me also...
Yes disciple... me also...
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
I agree Robbie - I guess the only issue I have is that the literal translation seems to exclude rich people completely - I am an advocate for the gate understanding because it points out the danger of the pursuit and love of money, but doesn't exclude people who are wealthy. Perhaps I have a personal stake in the gate translation because I live in America and simply by living in this country I am rich compared to the majority of the world....
WhiteKnuckle
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I don't think Jesus' words were directed to just the wealthy, or even being a warning purely about the persuit of money and possesions.
Seems to me that Jesus was exposing every mans imperfections.
This whole "context" was dealing with a Jew who kept the law to the letter........ Or so he thought. Jesus merely showed him and others that no man is perfect, all fall short.
I think at the same time as seems to be the genius of God, there's a double meaning. We're warned about greed, yet at the same time proven that none of us no matter how good we think we are can get to heaven on our own.
Seems to me, this story along with every other story in the Bible is more a condition of a mans heart. I think too many people get caught up in lawyering. LIke we have a list of things we must and must not do. Although there is a "list".
The eye of a needle, or the eye of THE needle,,,, either way you look at it, fitting a camel through either would be a huge task. But, not, Jesus never said "It is impossible".
Seems to me that Jesus was exposing every mans imperfections.
This whole "context" was dealing with a Jew who kept the law to the letter........ Or so he thought. Jesus merely showed him and others that no man is perfect, all fall short.
I think at the same time as seems to be the genius of God, there's a double meaning. We're warned about greed, yet at the same time proven that none of us no matter how good we think we are can get to heaven on our own.
Seems to me, this story along with every other story in the Bible is more a condition of a mans heart. I think too many people get caught up in lawyering. LIke we have a list of things we must and must not do. Although there is a "list".
The eye of a needle, or the eye of THE needle,,,, either way you look at it, fitting a camel through either would be a huge task. But, not, Jesus never said "It is impossible".
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