Church Bashing

FHII · Dec 23, 2021

TLHKAJ said:
Yes, and yet, Scripture speaks more in detail of His ministry outside the temple.

Bullspit! Yes, he preached outside the temple or synagogues, but he also preached in them...Daily!

What does "daily" mean?

TLHKAJ said:
He taught in the temple because He came to His own and His own didn't receive Him

So? He still taught in the temple.

TLHKAJ said:
But we are told to go out into the highways and the hedges

Yea, but not to preach to them there! We are told to bring them somewhere.

TLHKAJ said:
My point is, there is no place that says where we must assemble.

Oh really?

1 Corinthians 11:18 KJV
For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.

Paul didn't even say we should come together... It was already a fact. But people who don't believe in going to Church (like you) aren't even in this verse.

In other words... You aren't even apart of the Churhlch.

DuckieLady · Dec 23, 2021

FHII said:
Paul didn't even say we should come together... It was already a fact. But people who don't believe in going to Church (like you) aren't even in this verse.

In other words... You aren't even apart of the Churhlch.

Do you think that may have something to do with the fact that was a letter written to a church?

Therefore, them meeting at that church would be inevitable.

Anyway, I'm out for a while.

TLHKAJ · Dec 23, 2021

FHII said:
What does "daily" mean?

It obviously meant daily for a specific time period, since Jesus spent 40 days in the wilderness. He also went on journeys on foot that would have prevented Him from being in the temple every single day of His ministry.

Story of Jesus, Three Year Ministry, Maps

TRAVELS and ACTS OF JESUS, YEAR ONE - c AD27-28
Key: 1 - Approximate sequence of events, used in the list following

OPENING EVENTS
[1] Jesus, now about 30 years old (Lk 3:23) travels from his home-town of Nazareth in Galilee[2] At the River Jordan, possibly near Bethany-across-the-Jordan, he is baptised by John the Baptist (Mt 3:13; Mk 1:9)[3] He goes in to the Judean Desert or wilderness to face the devil's temptation (Mt 4:1; Mk 1:12; Lk 4:1)[4] At the River Jordan near Bethany-across-the-Jordan, or Bethabara (Jn 1:28), and according to John's Gospel, Jesus calls his first five disciples (Jn 1:35). These include Philip, Andrew, and Simon Peter all from Bethsaida in Galilee (Jn 1:44) [5] Jesus returns north to Galilee with his disciples (Jn 1:43), and at a wedding in Cana, changes the water into wine - his first recorded miracle (Jn 2:1)
[6] He continues on to Capernaum, on the northern shore of the Sea of Galilee with his mother, brothers and disciples, and stays there a short time (Jn 2:12)

EARLY MINISTRY IN JUDEA, SAMARIA AND GALILEE[7] He travels south to Jerusalem for the Passover - the first one mentioned in the Gospels (Jn 2:13). There he drives the money-changers from the Temple for the first time (Jn 2:14). He also meets the Pharisee, Nicodemus (Jn 3:1) [8] Jesus leaves for the countryside of Judea where his disciples baptise believers (Jn 3:22)[9] Jesus and his disciples continue northwards from Judea (Jn 4:3), passing through the territory of Samaria (Jn 4:4). Near Sychar, Jesus meets the Samaritan woman at the well (Jn 4:5). Many Samaritans believe in him (Jn 4:39), after which he continues on to Galilee (Jn 4:43)[10] He reaches Galilee (Mt 4:12; Mk 1:14; Lk 4:14; Jn 4:45), and back in Cana heals the official's son who lays sick in Capernaum (Jn 4:46) [11] Jesus returns to his home-town of Nazareth, and preaches in the synagogue (Lk 4:16). He is rejected for the first time (Lk 4:28)

TRAVELS and ACTS OF JESUS, YEAR TWO - c AD28-29
Key: 1 - Approximate sequence of events, used in the list following

[1] Jesus moves to Capernaum (Mt 4:13; Mk 1:21; Lk 4:31). According to the Synoptic Gospels, Jesus call his first disciples - perhaps only now to full-time service (Mt 4:18; Mk 1:16; Lk 5:1). In Capernaum he heals the madman in the synagogue (Mk 1:23; Lk 4:33) and Peter's mother-in-law of her fever (Mt 8:14; Mk 1:29; Lk 4:38)

FIRST PREACHING TOUR OF GALILEE[2] Jesus travels throughout Galilee, preaching and healing (Mt 4:23; Mk 1:39), including the leper (Mt 8:2; Mk 1:40; Lk 5:12).
[3] Returning to Capernaum (Mk 2:1) a paralysed man is healed (Mt 9:2; Mk 2:3; Lk 5:18) and Jesus calls Matthew (or Levi) the tax-collector to be a disciple (Mt 9:9; Mk 2:14; Lk 5:27)
[4] Jesus travels from Galilee south to Jerusalem for a Jewish festival - possibly the Second Passover identified in the Gospels (Jn 5:1). At the Pool of Bethesda he heals the crippled man (Jn 5:2)
[5] Returning north to Galilee, Jesus heals the man with the shrivelled hand (Mt 12:9; Mk 3:1; Lk 6:6) and many others (Mt 12:15; Mk 3:7)
[6] On a hillside in Galilee, probably near Capernaum, he selects his twelve apostles (Mt 10:1; Mk 3:13; Lk 6:12) and delivers the Sermon on the Mount (Mt 5:1). In Luke's report Jesus comes down from a hillside to give the Sermon (Lk 6:20)
[7] Back in Capernaum, (Mt 8:5; Lk 7:1) Jesus heals the Roman centurion's servant (Mt 8:5; Lk 7:2)
SECOND PREACHING TOUR OF GALILEE[8] Jesus continues preaching and healing in Galilee, and in Nain brings the widow's son back to life (Lk 7:11)
[9] Accompanied by the twelve apostles and some of his women helpers, Jesus continues his second Galilee tour (Lk 8:1)
[10] He sails across the Sea of Galilee (Mt 8:18; Mk 4:35; Lk 8:22) and calms a storm (Mt 8:24; Mk 4:37; Lk 8:23). Landing in the region of the Gerasenes (Mk 5:1; Lk 8:26) or Gadarenes (Mt 8:28) in Gentile Decapolis - the Ten Towns or Cities, Jesus heals the madman in the story of the Gadarene Swine (Mt 8:28; Mk 5:2; Lk 8:27)
[11] Sailing back across the Sea of Galilee (Mk 5:21) Jesus lands at "his own town" of Capernaum (Mt 9:1). Here he raises Jairus' daughter from the

TRAVELS and ACTS OF JESUS, YEAR THREE - c AD29-30
Key: 1 - Approximate sequence of events, used in the list following

THIRD PREACHING TOUR OF GALILEE

[1] Jesus travels from Capernaum to "his own native town" of Nazareth (Mk 6:1)
[2] In Nazareth, he is rejected for a second time (Mt 13:54; Mk 6:1)
[3] He continues through Galilee (Mt 13:58; Mk 6:6) and sends out the twelve apostles to preach the Gospel (Mt 10:5; Mk 6:7; Lk 9:1)
[4] The Twelve return to Capernaum from their mission (Mk 6:30, Luke 9:10)
[5] From Capernaum, they go off by boat with Jesus to a quiet place (Mk 6:32) near Bethsaida (Lk 9:10). Here he feeds the 5,000 (Mt 14:14; Mk 6:33; Lk 9:11; Jn 6:5)
[6] The disciples return across the Sea of Galilee (Mt 14:22; Mk 6:45), Jesus walking on the water to join them (Mt 14:25; Mk 6:48; Jn 6:19). They land near the Plain of Gennesaret and Jesus heals many people there (Mt 14:34; Mk 6:53).
[7] From Gennesaret they make their way back to Capernaum (Jn 6:24) and Jesus teaches about the Bread of Life (Jn 6:26)
JESUS PREACHES AND HEALS IN SYRIAN-PHOENICIA, ITUREA and TRACHONITIS, THE DECAPOLIS[8] Jesus retires from Galilee to the region of Tyre and Sidon in Syrian-Phoenicia (Mt 15:21; Mk 7:24) where he heals the daughter of the Gentile Syrophoenician woman (Mt 15:22; Mk 7:25).
[9] He leaves Syrian-Phoenicia via Sidon for Galilee (Mt 15:29) but travels through the Decapolis (Mk 7:31).
[10] In the Decapolis he heals the deaf and mute man (Mk 7:32) and feeds the 4,000 (Mt 15:32; Mk 8:1)
[11] Reaching the Sea of Galilee, he crosses by boat to the Magadan/Dalmanutha region (Mt 15:39; Mk 8:10). There the Pharisees and Sadducees ask for a sign from heaven (Mt 16:1; Mk 8:11)
[12] Continuing on to Bethsaida, a blind man is healed (Mk 8:22)
[13] Jesus now travels from Galilee, north to Caesarea Philippi in Iturea and Trachonitis, where Peter confesses that Jesus is the Christ (Mt 16:13; Mk 8:27)
[14] Continuing on from Caesarea Philippi possibly further north towards Mount Hermon, three of the disciples see Jesus Transfigured in the presence of Elijah and Moses (Mt 17:1; Mk 9:2; Lk 9:28). On his return, Jesus heals the boy with epilepsy (Mt 17:14; Mk 9:14; Lk 9:37).Other traditions place the Transfiguration to the south, on Mount Tabor. The epileptic boy would then have been healed in the Galilee area
[15] In Galilee (Mt 17:22; Mk 9:30), in Capernaum (Mk 9:33), Jesus pays the Temple Tax with a fish! (Mt 17:24). Then to avoid the dangers in Judea, he remains in Galilee (Jn 7:1)
LATER MINISTRY IN JUDEA[16] Jesus leaves Capernaum and Galilee for the last earthly time (Mt 19:1; Mk 10:1) and heads for Jerusalem (Lk 9:51; Jn 7:10). Travelling by Samaria, he heals the ten lepers (Lk 17:11) but is rejected in a Samaritan village (Lk 9:52)
[17] Arriving in Jerusalem for the Feast of the Tabernacles in the Autumn of c AD29 (Jn 7:10), Jesus forgives the woman caught in adultery (Jn 8:2) and heals the blind man who is taken before the Sanhedrin (Jn 9:1)
[18] During his travels in Judea, Jesus visits Martha and Mary in Bethany (Lk 10:38), returning to Jerusalem for "Hanukkah", the Feast of Dedication in December c AD29 (Jn 10:22)

THE LAST FEW MONTHS - c AD30
[19] Jesus withdraws to Bethany-across-the-Jordan (or Bethabara), and into the province of Perea, and stays for a while (Jn 10:40)
[20] Following the death of Lazarus, Jesus returns to Bethany near Jerusalem, and raises him (Lazarus) from the dead (Jn 11:1).
[21] Because of threats to his life, Jesus withdraws to Ephraim to the north of Jerusalem (Jn 11:54)
HIS MINISTRY IN PEREA (MODERN JORDAN)
[22] He then crosses the River Jordan and works in Perea (Mt 19:1; Mk 10:1). There he blesses the little children (Mt 19:13, Mk 10:13; Lk 18:15) and speaks to the rich young man (Mt 19:16; Mk 10:17; Lk 18:18)
THE FINAL JOURNEY TO JERUSALEM
[23] Jesus now travels towards Jerusalem for the last time (Mt 20:17; Mk 10:32; Lk 18:31). Passing through Jericho he heals one (or two) blind men (Mt 20:29; Mk 10:46; Lk 18:35) and converts Zacchaeus the tax collector (Lk 19:1).
[24] Reaching Bethany (Jn 12:1) the home of Lazarus, Mary and Martha, Jesus is anointed by Mary either now (Jn 12:2), or later (Mt 26:6; Mk 14:3) after his triumphal entry into Jerusalem (Mt 21:1; Mk 11:1; Lk 19:29; Jn 12:12)
[25] During the Easter week, Jesus returns to Jerusalem each day after staying overnight in Bethany on the Mount of Olives (Mt 21:17-18; Mk 11:11-12;19; Lk 21:37).

GALILEE AREA

As much of Jesus' three year ministry took place in the Galilee area, a more detailed map follows:Map - Galilee Area where Jesus Preached and Healed During Much of His Three Year Ministry, c AD27-30

TLHKAJ · Dec 23, 2021

FluffyYellowDuck said:
Do you think that may have something to do with the fact that was a letter written to a church?

Therefore, them meeting at that church would be inevitable.

Anyway, I'm out for a while.

Exactly. It wasn't a command to come together in a church. Paul was writing to a particular group of believers who had come together in a church. And yet, there are many references to house churches as well. Paul attended many of those himself. The point is to assemble together. The building isn't what makes the church (as you know).

Philip James · Dec 24, 2021

GaryAnderson said:
I’m gonna march on towards my church brother.
It’s beautiful.
It has beautiful icons and choir sounds and it smells like incense. We venerate Virgin Mary and the Saints and we worship God.
We also believe in and worship the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. We also believe in baptism. It’s wonderful.
Hallelujah !

Hello Gary,

Indeed, sounds wonderful! Alleluia!

Pax et Bonum!

Brakelite · Dec 24, 2021

GaryAnderson said:
Stay GLUED into that Bible and FLEE the churches !

Why?. The Bible says flee Babylon. Read the Genesis account of babel from which Babylon derived. God didn't divide babel without good purpose. Amigo is right, ecumenism is a satanic attempt to unify what God has divided... But not every church is in Babylon. If you don't like your current church as Marks suggested, find another. And keep looking until you do. There are good ones out there.

David H. · Dec 24, 2021

marks said:
I've heard enough generalized church bashing to last the rest of my life.

God tells us that if we create division in the body of Christ, be warned, if you destroy God's temple, He will destroy you.

Jesus said, Upon this rock I will build My church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

But how many have a heard declare, "Western Christianity is a failure", "the church has become corrupt", on and on it goes.

Well, I have a couple of responses. First of which, if this is your experience, find a new church to attend! Seek until you find faithful believers. They are there. God will lead you to them.

Secondly, how in the world do you know what my church is like? Simple answer. You don't. So why make out like it's all so rotten? Does that make you feel better to sit over all of Christendom in judgment? Think about it.

And thirdly, who are you helping in telling everyone there isn't any good church anywhere? Why not be good church?

OK, I could go on, but, rant over.

Much love!

When the church you attend encourages your wife to divorce despite not being unequally yoked then there is a problem in the church. when the church you attend houses pedophiles who abuse children then there is a problem in the church. When the church you attend casts out the poor and ones who do not put money in the offering plate there is a problem in the church. When someone who smells a little funny or looks a little different is ostracized in the church, then there is a problem in the church. When the church preaches astral projection, new age Spiritism, Necromancy, astrology then there is a problem in the church. When the leadership of the church is full of freemasons who are infiltrating the doctrines of the church, there is a problem in the church. When Homosexuality, and fornication and transgenderism are tolerated there is a problem in the church. When Humanism is taught instead of Christianity there is a problem in the church. I Have seen or experienced all these things in the churches I have attended and the ones who try to correct these problems in their own church are ousted, so yes, there is a serious problem in Western Christianity that does not include all the things that @amigo de christo mentioned in his comments here.

I Dare any here to read Ezekiel 8 and then Ezekiel 16. To this day the Rabbi's avoid these chapters like the plague. When these happen to an institutional church God raises a Holy Remnant unto himself who will not tolerate the the whoredoms those churches fall into, just like Israel did, and tell them to "come out of here my people".

God bless.

FHII · Dec 24, 2021

TLHKAJ said:
obviously meant daily for a specific time period, since Jesus spent 40 days in the wilderness. He also went on journeys on foot that would have prevented Him from being in the

Yes, Jesus travelled. Yes, he taught in other places... Regardless of that, he still attended the temple enough to say he was there DAILY.

FHII · Dec 24, 2021

FluffyYellowDuck said:
Do you think that may have something to do with the fact that was a letter written to a church?

Therefore, them meeting at that church would be inevitable.

Anyway, I'm out for a while.

I really don't know what you are trying to say here... Yes, he wrote to a Church.... That is, the congregation, but they gathered together to hear the reading of the letter. And when they did, the meeting place ceased to be a house, a hall, a grove or park, a tavern or inn or a 7-11. It was at the moment a "Church".

It really sounds like some have an irrational fear of worshipping in a building. It sounds like people would rather worship in a park, a home or anywhere else besides a building that was constructed for the sole purpose of honoring God.... But I don't think so.

I think they just don't like the authority.

Enoch111 · Dec 24, 2021

FHII said:
It really sounds like some have an irrational fear of worshipping in a building.

True, although it should be a non-issue. I believe it boils down to avoiding the responsibilities and obligations of being a church member, including the matter of financial support.

Brakelite · Dec 24, 2021

FHII said:
I really don't know what you are trying to say here... Yes, he wrote to a Church.... That is, the congregation, but they gathered together to hear the reading of the letter. And when they did, the meeting place ceased to be a house, a hall, a grove or park, a tavern or inn or a 7-11. It was at the moment a "Church".

It really sounds like some have an irrational fear of worshipping in a building. It sounds like people would rather worship in a park, a home or anywhere else besides a building that was constructed for the sole purpose of honoring God.... But I don't think so.

I think they just don't like the authority.

Enoch111 said:
True, although it should be a non-issue. I believe it boils down to avoiding the responsibilities and obligations of being a church member, including the matter of financial support.

Independence as a mindset is unchristian. Everything is dependant upon something, or someone else. There is an obligation to others when in a community of believers... To care for one another, support one another, encourage and establish long term relationships in order to fulfill the challenges of....
And that community has an obligation to those outside of it, to preach the gospel, to reveal the love of God, to invite them into fellowship where they can then find the support they need to grow. The bigger the challenge... And that challenge is a world bent on destroying Christianity... Takes much more than community. It takes organization, leadership, experience. Not many know this, but the church of the early centuries was highly organized. They weren't little independent house churches unless there was intense persecution and such tactics were necessary. But at one time the Assyrian church of the east extended from Persia to China, was divided into bishoprics and headed by an elected official in Baghdad. Their focus was missions, and they converted entire kingdoms for Christ. Denominational organizations can be either good or bad. But to accomplish God's work in the short time that is left, is going to take a miracle. House churches in places where persecution is rife such as in China and North Korea and in some Muslim countries, will do their part. But there is no excuse for house churches in the west. Find a good church, one with a global focus on missions and support it.

amigo de christo · Dec 24, 2021

David H. said:
When the church you attend encourages your wife to divorce despite not being unequally yoked then there is a problem in the church. when the church you attend houses pedophiles who abuse children then there is a problem in the church. When the church you attend casts out the poor and ones who do not put money in the offering plate there is a problem in the church. When someone who smells a little funny or looks a little different is ostracized in the church, then there is a problem in the church. When the church preaches astral projection, new age Spiritism, Necromancy, astrology then there is a problem in the church. When the leadership of the church is full of freemasons who are infiltrating the doctrines of the church, there is a problem in the church. When Homosexuality, and fornication and transgenderism are tolerated there is a problem in the church. When Humanism is taught instead of Christianity there is a problem in the church. I Have seen or experienced all these things in the churches I have attended and the ones who try to correct these problems in their own church are ousted, so yes, there is a serious problem in Western Christianity that does not include all the things that @amigo de christo mentioned in his comments here.

I Dare any here to read Ezekiel 8 and then Ezekiel 16. To this day the Rabbi's avoid these chapters like the plague. When these happen to an institutional church God raises a Holy Remnant unto himself who will not tolerate the the whoredoms those churches fall into, just like Israel did, and tell them to "come out of here my people".

God bless.

Yes indeed many problems in many churches . The fastest growing religion within all sects of denominations
is this humanism , all inclusive false love move for unity . That is the one thing i see infiltrating
all churches who have long taught falsehoods and have refused to repent .
It is truly as though they are being gathered to be as one . Under the guise of the words love , tolerance , unity
But near the end we were warned of a strong delusion . There are spirits at work
that are now gathering all false religions as well as many within christendom . Its the final hour delusion
to gather the world to be as one and have common ground right under the beast .

TLHKAJ · Dec 24, 2021

I don't think anyone has expressed a fear of attending a church or assembling with believers. I think people are reading too much into these posts.

TLHKAJ · Dec 24, 2021

I've attended many churches. But once they find out that I live under threat, I get shunned, avoided, and eventually booted. They don't want to associate with me or offer any kind of actual friendship or prayer/support. So I don't get to stay in a church/group very long. It's not me who is fearful..... and I don't see God saying I am not part of "the church" because my brothers and sisters are afraid to know or look at what I deal with.

TEXBOW · Dec 24, 2021

Enoch111 said:
True, although it should be a non-issue. I believe it boils down to avoiding the responsibilities and obligations of being a church member, including the matter of financial support.

I think for some this could be true but that also opens a complicated discussion. Some Churches simply do not need another bowling alley. We should support the Church we attend. A Church has real expenses, utilities, possibly a mortgage, the salary of the pastor, maintenance etc. Some Churches are trying to build another Tower of Babel.

Hidden In Him · Dec 24, 2021

marks said:
I've heard enough generalized church bashing to last the rest of my life.

God tells us that if we create division in the body of Christ, be warned, if you destroy God's temple, He will destroy you.

Jesus said, Upon this rock I will build My church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

But how many have a heard declare, "Western Christianity is a failure", "the church has become corrupt", on and on it goes.

Well, I have a couple of responses. First of which, if this is your experience, find a new church to attend! Seek until you find faithful believers. They are there. God will lead you to them.

Secondly, how in the world do you know what my church is like? Simple answer. You don't. So why make out like it's all so rotten? Does that make you feel better to sit over all of Christendom in judgment? Think about it.

And thirdly, who are you helping in telling everyone there isn't any good church anywhere? Why not be good church?

OK, I could go on, but, rant over.

Much love!

From a brief glance, it appears that this thread has partly developed into a debate between two sides: The Pro-church and the Con-church. I try not to bash any ministry as a habit; to me that smacks of a critical and condemning spirit. But at the same time, if I had to pick sides in such a discussion, I would quite honestly take the Con side at this point in my life and spiritual development, not because I am against gathering together with believers, but because so much of what we call "church" these days is characterized by weak teaching, weak services, and weak leadership, tailored more towards the spiritually immature than making others truly strong.

I know that sounds condemning, but it's more just an acknowledgment that there are serious problems with the vast majority of churches now, and I would rather voice my discontent for the sake of those who might be feeling the same thing yet wondered if they were crazy than just sweep the elephant under the rug.

If you want a good read on my position here, the following book sort of crystallized my take on the modern church. It's an analysis of the Charismatic Movement in particular, which has fallen into such decline over the last 4 - 5 decades that it is now largely just a former shell of itself, and why so many genuine Charismatics have just left the churches at this point, recognizing nothing from what they grew up with.

Quitting Church: Why the Faithful are Fleeing — Julia Duin

I always have to check myself that I am not rejecting hope out of hand without always looking for things to change, but I was watching a sermon on TV just the other day, and he spent the 10 of the 10 and a half minutes I watched just talking about horses and telling horse stories. If I cared to learn about that instead of the word of God, I'd just go on Youtube and search horses. The things that pass for "ministry" these days are really often just a sad excuse for it.

Enoch111 · Dec 24, 2021

TEXBOW said:
Some Churches are trying to build another Tower of Babel.

True. This is in fact a serious issue. Some churches simply do not know the difference between essential and non-essential expenses. And many fail to set aside funds for the genuinely poor and needy, or disabled. As we see in the book of Acts, the poor widows became a top priority. And God sees both widows and orphans in that light.

Enoch111 · Dec 24, 2021

Hidden In Him said:
...so much of what we call "church" these days is characterized by weak teaching, weak services, and weak leadership, tailored more towards the spiritually immature than making others truly strong.

Seems that way. If evangelical churches were following the New Testament pattern, then this would not be happening. A one-man ministry is detrimental to every church. That is why God's pattern was a plurality of elders in every city (Titus 1:5), and every church directly responsible to Christ and the Holy Spirit (Rev 1-3).

DuckieLady · Dec 24, 2021

Btw @FHII I think you're a nice person and I like you, and I am sorry for being snippy last night. That's on me.

Merry Christmas

stunnedbygrace · Dec 24, 2021

FluffyYellowDuck said:
Btw @FHII I think you're a nice person and I like you, and I am sorry for being snippy last night. That's on me.

Merry Christmas

Well…in your defense, it can make you snippy to be told you must find a man to be over you when you go to listen to so many men and can’t find one who doesn’t do anything but teach the letter. Who needs help with the letter?

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