The Christian Theocracy

Keraz · Sep 28, 2022

Randy Kluth said:
the northern tribes perished in exile

Address Ezekiel 4:4-5, where the Northern tribes were exiled for a decreed period.
The Bible maintains the separation between Israel and Judah and eventually they will re-join; from Judah; a remnant, from Israel: a vast multitude. Of Christians.

Will you ever correct your errors? Or don't you think being proved wrong matters?

Blue Dragonfly's · Sep 28, 2022

Randy Kluth said:
The 10 Commandments were given to Israel, including the Sabbath Law. It was preliminary to Christ's work on the cross. Now that our sins are forgiven, laws like the Sabbath need not be kept. Jesus did all the work for us. We need not try to cleanse ourselves from sin by works any longer.

The 10 commandments aren't works salvation.
Jesus reiterated the 9 commands, and then said the laws and the prophets hang on the two laws that are the foundation of those 9. Love the Lord God with all your heart and mind. Love your neighbor as yourself.
Exactly what the 9 commands direct.

Obeying the 10 commandments didn't save early Jews. Faith saved them.

Davy · Sep 28, 2022

Randy Kluth said:
Gen 48.19 is identified by commentary Barnes as the "fulness of the nations," and by Gill as a "multitude of families." In either case, the meaning was that Ephraim would be a larger family than his brother Manasseh and would ultimately come to represent all of northern Israel. "Multitude of nations" correspond to "multitude of families," according to Gill.

I know that's a popular notion, since those who think it base it on the fact that David's throne ended in Jerusalem with king Zedekiah, and thus they treat Lord Jesus as already sitting upon His throne, which is not true. Traditions built upon traditions, but not coming to the Truth as written in God's Word. Thus nor do they understand the "riddle" God gave through His prophet Ezekiel in the Ezekiel 17 chapter, which is about the ten tribe "house of Israel" and future prophecy about David's throne after... Zedekiah, and after the scattering among the Gentiles.

I'm not a scholar like these commentators, but it strikes me as true to reality. As you said, the northern tribes perished in exile. I don't believe they will be recovered. Their tribes came to be enmeshed in the S. Kingdom of Judah among those who wished to remain true to the Law of God. The Law of Moses specified that true worship should be done in Jerusalem 3x a year, Passover, Pentecost, and Tabernacles. All sacrifices and offerings were to be made their through the official priests, and not through counterfeit priests presiding over idol worship.

I don't claim to be a scholar either, however, we are still to verify for ourselves in God's Word. Like E.W. Bullinger for example, he was an 19th century British Christian scholar and put together one of the best KJV study Bibles in my opinion, yet because the Pre-trib Rapture theory was popular in his day, just like many today, he succumbed to it. So not everything he taught was accurate, because of his allowing 'some' traditions of men to creep into his thinking. Like Barnes, Bullinger also believed in the Genesis Gap theory (I do too), but many other Bible scholars do not. Thus we 'each' must make a choice in verifying the Scriptures with God's help, and what we don't yet understand put on a shelf for the time being.

Randy Kluth · Sep 28, 2022

Davy said:
I know that's a popular notion, since those who think it base it on the fact that David's throne ended in Jerusalem with king Zedekiah, and thus they treat Lord Jesus as already sitting upon His throne, which is not true.

We agree that Jesus has not yet come into his reign.

Davy said:
Traditions built upon traditions, but not coming to the Truth as written in God's Word. Thus nor do they understand the "riddle" God gave through His prophet Ezekiel in the Ezekiel 17 chapter, which is about the ten tribe "house of Israel" and future prophecy about David's throne after... Zedekiah, and after the scattering among the Gentiles.

Eze 17? The commentators I read simply feel that the prophecy is about Messiah restoring Israel. David's throne ended, in some respects, with Zedekiah. But his royal line continued until Jesus was born to be ruler. His reign takes place at his 2nd Coming, in my view. That's when Israel will be restored, along with all of the Christian nations of the world. Those who have been faithful to Christ will rule in glorious new bodies.

Davy said:
Like Barnes, Bullinger also believed in the Genesis Gap theory (I do too), but many other Bible scholars do not. Thus we 'each' must make a choice in verifying the Scriptures with God's help, and what we don't yet understand put on a shelf for the time being.

I agree. I'm not Pretrib either, and I just don't know about the Genesis "gap theory?" But yes, I put things on the shelf for a long time, sometimes, until God gives me more understanding. Sage advice!

Davy · Sep 29, 2022

Randy Kluth said:
Eze 17? The commentators I read simply feel that the prophecy is about Messiah restoring Israel. David's throne ended, in some respects, with Zedekiah. But his royal line continued until Jesus was born to be ruler. His reign takes place at his 2nd Coming, in my view. That's when Israel will be restored, along with all of the Christian nations of the world. Those who have been faithful to Christ will rule in glorious new bodies.

That David's throne continued until Jesus came is a popular tradition of men, but it is not Biblical. When you agree that Lord Jesus has not yet come to rule upon this earth, that means you must also agree that He has not yet returned to sit upon the throne of His heritage, i.e., David's throne which is promised Him.

And once Zedekiah and his son heirs were all killed by Nebuchadnezzar, the king of Babylon, David's throne ended in Jerusalem and has never to this day been setup there again. So David's throne... 'specifically' in Jerusalem, certainly did not... continue after Zedekiah's death. Those who's Biblical thinking stops right there remain ignorant of what God showed about His promise to David that his throne would last through 'all' generations, and Genesis 49:10 that I have shown many times is one of those prophetic Scriptures that proves what I'm saying that there still must be one of Judah still sitting upon that throne, on earth, to this day, until Jesus returns to inherit it.

Randy Kluth · Sep 29, 2022

Davy said:
That David's throne continued until Jesus came is a popular tradition of men, but it is not Biblical. When you agree that Lord Jesus has not yet come to rule upon this earth, that means you must also agree that He has not yet returned to sit upon the throne of His heritage, i.e., David's throne which is promised Him.

And once Zedekiah and his son heirs were all killed by Nebuchadnezzar, the king of Babylon, David's throne ended in Jerusalem and has never to this day been setup there again. So David's throne... 'specifically' in Jerusalem, certainly did not... continue after Zedekiah's death. Those who's Biblical thinking stops right there remain ignorant of what God showed about His promise to David that his throne would last through 'all' generations, and Genesis 49:10 that I have shown many times is one of those prophetic Scriptures that proves what I'm saying that there still must be one of Judah still sitting upon that throne, on earth, to this day, until Jesus returns to inherit it.

No, I agree that the throne ended with Zedekiah. But the bloodline of David was to persist until Messiah came.

It does not say, however, that Messiah would immediately take up his rule--just that he would be the one to establish this rule. The reason we assume that the throne continues until his reign starts is because nobody figured that Messiah would die, and delay his reign for at least 2000 years!

Furthermore, some erringly think the Davidic throne continued after Zedekiah through Zerubbabel, etc. However, this was just the Messianic bloodline, and not a "reign." Herod reigned just before the coming of Jesus, but he was not a Davidic king.

So we can agree that the reign departed from Israel after Zedekiah, but we cannot agree that the bloodline continued after Christ himself came. To be honest, I don't fully understand what you're trying to say. It was a mystery, perhaps deliberately kept by God, that Messiah would come who was to be ruler at his 1st Advent, but was not meant to begin his reign for another 2000 years.

The Scriptures talked about the eternity of Christ's reign once it actually begins at his 2nd Coming, and not that it would start when he 1st arrived. But neither did they say that David's throne would continue in the form of a "reign" until Christ came. It was only saying, I think, that David's royal bloodline would not pass away before the Messiah, the ruler of God's Kingdom, arrived.

It was not that when this "Ruler" comes that the Kingdom of David would be immediately reinitiated. That is just what normal people would think--not that the Ruler would come, die, and let another 2000 years lapse before his Kingdom is initiated!

That his reign was put off after his 1st Advent for 2000 years was a mystery that God seemed to hide from mankind so as to make the faith of men dependent on their spiritual experience of Christ more than on their rational sense of what ordinary men are like. Just my opinion...

michaelvpardo · Sep 29, 2022

Enoch111 said:
This is completely false. The very word "theocracy" means that God is the King who rules over that nation. There was only one true theocracy and that was the nation of Israel until the Israelites demanded a human king (Saul). And that was the end of theocracy and the end of Israel. Israel split into two, the Northern Kingdom went into Assyrian captivity, and the Southern Kingdom went into Babylonian captivity.

There is no doubt that Europe was dominated by Christianity and even that Christianity was the state religion in both the Roman and the Byzantine empires. But that did not automatically mean that these were "theocracies", or that all the citizens were born again believers (within the true Church), or that all the shenanigans of the popes and the Byzantine emperors were approved by God. Indeed quite the reverse, since all of this was about power, wealth, and control by a few while the masses were no better than serfs and slaves. As a result there was much wickedness and evil perpetrated by the "Christian" kings, emperors, and popes. And that is DEFINITELY NOT a theocracy.

However, when Christ establishes the Kingdom of God on earth (in the future), and there is universal righteousness and peace, then there will be a true theocracy on earth. In the meantime -- as Satan had already told Christ -- all the kingdoms of the world are under his control. And we see that right now as we observe international politics. All world leaders are working to enslave their citizens under the rule of Satan. The goal is to STEAL, KILL, AND DESTROY. And that is Satan's agenda.

Kind of, sort of. But the days of the judges were lawless times.
"In those days there was no king in Israel; everyone did what was right in his own eyes." Judges 21:25

Davy · Sep 29, 2022

Randy Kluth said:
No, I agree that the throne ended with Zedekiah. But the bloodline of David was to persist until Messiah came.

OK, I definitely agree that David's lineage continued, also on earth, even to this day. And that is a requirement of what God promised David about one of his seed sitting upon his throne unto all generations. So it's not simply about Lord Jesus inheriting a non-existing throne that ended with Zedekiah, because Lord Jesus is not sitting upon David's throne in Heaven, but instead on the right hand of The Father's throne, still expecting.

It does not say, however, that Messiah would immediately take up his rule--just that he would be the one to establish this rule. The reason we assume that the throne continues until his reign starts is because nobody figured that Messiah would die, and delay his reign for at least 2000 years!

That's pretty much irrelevant to God's promise to David about his throne existing unto all generations, nor does it address the Genesis 49:10 prophecy about David's throne existing until Shiloh (Jesus) comes.

Gen 49:10
10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
KJV

Furthermore, some erringly think the Davidic throne continued after Zedekiah through Zerubbabel, etc. However, this was just the Messianic bloodline, and not a "reign." Herod reigned just before the coming of Jesus, but he was not a Davidic king.

Yeah, they misinterpret Zerubbabel as 'The BRANCH' in Zechariah 6 also, when that is only about Lord Jesus when He comes to inherit David's throne on earth. There never in history of mankind has ever been an Israelite King-High Priest to sit upon David's earthly throne. That is reserved only for our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

So we can agree that the reign departed from Israel after Zedekiah, but we cannot agree that the bloodline continued after Christ himself came. To be honest, I don't fully understand what you're trying to say. It was a mystery, perhaps deliberately kept by God, that Messiah would come who was to be ruler at his 1st Advent, but was not meant to begin his reign for another 2000 years.

I'll be more direct then. David's bloodline lineage continued with "the king's daughters" of king Zedekiah...

Jer 43:5-7
5 But Johanan the son of Kareah, and all the captains of the forces, took all the remnant of Judah, that were returned from all nations, whither they had been driven, to dwell in the land of Judah;
6 Even men, and women, and children, and the king's daughters, and every person that Nebuzar-adan the captain of the guard had left with Gedaliah the son of Ahikam the son of Shaphan, and Jeremiah the prophet, and Baruch the son of Neriah.
7 So they came into the land of Egypt: for they obeyed not the voice of the LORD: thus came they even to Tahpanhes.
KJV

Jeremiah the prophet was kin to the royal family, he was guardian of Zedekiah's daughters. One of Zedekiah's daughters represents the tender one in God's riddle to the house of Israel (Ezek.17).

"Appendix 87: "Pharaoh's House in Tahpanhes" (Jeremiah 43:9)
"PHARAOH'S HOUSE IN TAHPANHES" (Jer 43:9)
In the year 1886 W.M. Flinders Petrie was exploring at Tell Defenneh, in Egypt; he was told that the name of one of the mounds was Kasr Bint el Jehudi, which means "the palace of the Jew's daughter". This name recalled to his mind the passage in Jer 43:6,7, and at once connected Defenneh with "Tahpanhes", where in vv. 8-11 Jeremiah received this order:

"Take great stones in thine hand, and hide them in the clay in the brickkiln, which is at the entry of Pharaoh's house in Tahpanhes, in the sight of the men of Judah; and say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will send and take Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, My servant, and will set his throne upon these stones that I have hid; and he shall spread his royal pavilion over them", &c. Jer 43:8-10.
(from E. W. Bullinger's Companion Bible: Notes and Appendices. Biblesoft Formatted Electronic Database Copyright © 2014 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

See full Appendix here: Pharaoh's House in Tahpanhes (Jer. 43:9). - Appendix to the Companion Bible

Enoch111 · Sep 29, 2022

michaelvpardo said:
Kind of, sort of. But the days of the judges were lawless times. "In those days there was no king in Israel; everyone did what was right in his own eyes." Judges 21:25

That's exactly what I am suggesting. Even though Israel was under a theocracy from the time they left Egypt to the anointing of king Saul, they were in constant rebellion. And not a single European nation was directly under the rule of God Himself. Indeed the history of Europe is proof that all the nations were under the power of Satan. Wars, bloodshed, power grabs, serfdom, and slavery are not the marks of a theocracy. So the only theocracy will be in the future, AFTER the Second Coming of Christ.

friend of · Sep 29, 2022

When Jesus returns the entire world will become a theocracy with Jesus at the head of it all. For the very first time in human history, we will finally get a government that is not tainted with evil.

@Hidden In Him check your private messages.

Ronald Nolette · Sep 29, 2022

Randy Kluth said:
God promised Abraham a nation consisting of his descendants, ie Israel, as well as a family of nations who share Abraham's faith. Israel became a theocracy and a model for future Christian nations to base their societies on God's laws, as well.

Some people argue that the NT does not describe a Christian Theocracy, and instead focuses only on individual salvation. But that isn't quite true. We do come to Christ as individuals, but we are called into society, the Church.

And Abraham's nation, Israel, did become a model for the nations that God also promised to Abraham. Paul argued that this was fulfilled in the Church.

However, in the time of the writing of the NT, the Church had only begun as a minority within Israel, and had only started an outreach to the nations. Christianity was just a minority religion until Rome adopted Christianity under Theodosius.

So Christian nations did eventually evolve after the pattern of Israel's theocracy, and we have called them "Christian nations" typically. Today, the term "theocracy" is avoided out of concern to disassociate with the Islamic theocracy and other religious theocracies. But Christian nations, no matter the form of government, is a theocracy when the country is a self-proclaimed Christian country, or Christian state.

The failure of Israel as a theocracy did not mean the failure of their model for all nations. On the contrary, they showed that a theocracy only works when its principles are being responsibly followed.

The theocracy of Israel succeeded even before Christ because it was not based on perfection, but on the idea of redemption. Now that redemption is complete in Christ, it is affirmed that theocracy is God's model for the nations.

We are to responsibly follow Christian principles as a Christian society, without necessitating perfection. Christ has forgiven our sins, and this forgiveness applies when we regularly practice repentance.

Those who want to return to pagan forms of government are Antichristian, and Christians should not give up their belief in the Christian government, even if they are outnumbered. It is our testimony that is critical, and not the success of our society.

But we were never commanded to created
Christian theocracies" on earth. We are foreigners and strangers here, not citizens of this world though we have citizenship in varied nations.

We do have the Christian theocracy called the church, but that is as far as it goes. The world is the world and unless we are going to force the unsaved to live like they are saved- theocracies never work.

We were never called to created Christian nations, but to go and make disciples in all nations.

Randy Kluth · Sep 29, 2022

Davy said:
OK, I definitely agree that David's lineage continued, also on earth, even to this day. And that is a requirement of what God promised David about one of his seed sitting upon his throne unto all generations. So it's not simply about Lord Jesus inheriting a non-existing throne that ended with Zedekiah, because Lord Jesus is not sitting upon David's throne in Heaven, but instead on the right hand of The Father's throne, still expecting.

I see it quite differently. I see Jesus having inherited the throne of David from the royal line from David to Zedekiah. Yes, there is a big gap in the throne of David from Zedekiah to Jesus' 2nd Coming, but Jesus did inherit that bloodline, and was the final heir to that line. He did not, however, establish the throne immediately. It was to be realized more than 2000 years later.

I do not see the royal bloodline continuing past Jesus. The bloodline ended with Jesus. He came to reveal himself as the king of the coming Kingdom. But he did not come to immediately establish that Kingdom.

Davy said:
That's pretty much irrelevant to God's promise to David about his throne existing unto all generations, nor does it address the Genesis 49:10 prophecy about David's throne existing until Shiloh (Jesus) comes.

Yes it does. David's throne was represented not by a continuous reign, but rather, by a royal bloodline.

Davy said:
Gen 49:10

Davy said:
10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
KJV

It indicates that the Messianic line will not go through any other line than through Judah. It is talking about Messianic criteria, or qualifications. He must be from Judah. It is not speaking of continuous rule by the David kings. The line of Judah has long ago been lost, along with its royal genealogy. There can be no other Messiah than Jesus.

Randy Kluth · Sep 29, 2022

Ronald Nolette said:
But we were never commanded to created
Christian theocracies" on earth. We are foreigners and strangers here, not citizens of this world though we have citizenship in varied nations.

I didn't make it up. God said it. He promised Abraham *nations.* And he gave the 1st nation of God, Israel, a theocracy. We often assume that because salvation is individual that societies can't be "saved." Well, that's partly true. But God is very interested in improving not just individuals but also the societies we live in.

Ronald Nolette said:
We do have the Christian theocracy called the church, but that is as far as it goes. The world is the world and unless we are going to force the unsaved to live like they are saved- theocracies never work.

That's true, but history shows that nations change. They come and go. They rise and fall. When Israel began, they all declared with one voice that the Lord is their God. Later, many of them adopted different gods.

God tries to start nations out with a system that will be the greatest blessing to them. But He knows that over time people will drop off and start wanting their own way.

Ronald Nolette said:
We were never called to created Christian nations, but to go and make disciples in all nations.

Sorry, I read the Scriptures differently than you do, apparently? We do go and make disciples in all nations. But we also get our model for Christian nations from the theocracy of Israel. Instead of adopting the Law of Moses, however, we adopt God's Son as a model for our societies.

Randy Kluth · Sep 30, 2022

Keraz said:
Address Ezekiel 4:4-5, where the Northern tribes were exiled for a decreed period.
The Bible maintains the separation between Israel and Judah and eventually they will re-join; from Judah; a remnant, from Israel: a vast multitude. Of Christians.

Will you ever correct your errors? Or don't you think being proved wrong matters?

The time Ezekiel spent on his side reflects the time of Israel's idolatry in the Northern Kingdom. It was not the time of their exile, but rather, the time of their idolatry. The rejoining of Israel and Judah had to do with the reduction from a 2 Kingdoms situation to only a single Kingdom or nation. That happened when the Northern Kingdom was exiled, and never returned. The salvation of the 10 tribes came to depend upon groups of them migrating south to worship God in Judah. Hence, the Jewish People now represent the fulfillment of all 12 tribes in a single nation which, in the Messianic Age, will represent a single Kingdom.

Keraz · Sep 30, 2022

Randy Kluth said:
The time Ezekiel spent on his side reflects the time of Israel's idolatry in the Northern Kingdom.

I have to think that you have a quite different way of reading and interpreting scripture that I have.
I read the plain Words of Ezekiel 4:4-5 as their decreed punishment by exile from the holy Land, for their idolatry and sins.
Of 390 years, which didn't happen after that time, but careful study shows that God has multiplied their exile by 7 times. Leviticus 26:18
A total of 2730 years, which is completed about now. The Jews and the evil neighbors will soon be gone and righteous, Christian Israelites will occupy all of the holy land. Jeramiah 12:14

Ezekiel Prophesied after Israel was exiled in circa 718 BC and the split between Judah and Israel, after King Solomon became King in 931 BC.
So we have no more than 200 years for Israel to anger God and get exiled. Your hopeless guesses, biased and poor exegesis, again show how wrong the idea of a Jewish redemption is.

Randy Kluth said:
the Jewish People now represent the fulfillment of all 12 tribes in a single nation

Even the Jews themselves disagree with you. The so called 'aliya' of the lost tribes is a sham, as they are just wannabe Jews and they join the tribe of Judah.
Prophecy disproves your belief, as all of Israel are as many as the sands of the seashore.

Behold · Sep 30, 2022

Randy Kluth said:
We are to responsibly follow Christian principles as a Christian society, without necessitating perfection. Christ has forgiven our sins, and this forgiveness applies when we regularly practice repentance.

Salvation is not based on continuing to repent.
Salvation is the Gift of God that is APPLIED as becoming "the righteousness of God" "in Christ".

When a person is BORN again...they are Born Righteous. So, you learn to walk this out as your discipleship, because you have already become the "righteousness of God in Christ".

This does not apply to someone who believes that because they are water baptized and confirmed, or because they are water baptized they are born again.

Randy Kluth · Sep 30, 2022

Keraz said:
I have to think that you have a quite different way of reading and interpreting scripture that I have.
I read the plain Words of Ezekiel 4:4-5 as their decreed punishment by exile from the holy Land, for their idolatry and sins.
Of 390 years, which didn't happen after that time, but careful study shows that God has multiplied their exile by 7 times. Leviticus 26:18
A total of 2730 years, which is completed about now. The Jews and the evil neighbors will soon be gone and righteous, Christian Israelites will occupy all of the holy land. Jeramiah 12:14

Ezekiel Prophesied after Israel was exiled in circa 718 BC and the split between Judah and Israel, after King Solomon became King in 931 BC.
So we have no more than 200 years for Israel to anger God and get exiled. Your hopeless guesses, biased and poor exegesis, again show how wrong the idea of a Jewish redemption is.

Even the Jews themselves disagree with you. The so called 'aliya' of the lost tribes is a sham, as they are just wannabe Jews and they join the tribe of Judah.
Prophecy disproves your belief, as all of Israel are as many as the sands of the seashore.

I'm sure you're not concerned with whether the Jews "agree with me?" But I'm not thinking like you, but more like thinking like the commentators at Hub. Ezekiel represented the idolatry in Israel and Judah that God had been suffering, which would lead up to their punishment. It is symbolic of Christ bearing the sins of Israel and of the whole world.

Randy Kluth · Sep 30, 2022

Behold said:
Salvation is not based on continuing to repent.
Salvation is the Gift of God that is APPLIED as becoming "the righteousness of God" "in Christ".

When a person is BORN again...they are Born Righteous. So, you learn to walk this out as your discipleship, because you have already become the "righteousness of God in Christ".

This does not apply to someone who believes that because they are water baptized and confirmed, or because they are water baptized they are born again.

I agree that Christians can go through religious ceremonies without becoming "born again." This is a works mentality. And works never saved Israel because salvation is dependent on the works of Christ. Those works only apply to us when we make Christ our Lord.

So I disagree with you, as well. Salvation is indeed based on our repentance, and the Gospels present that message, that we must repent in order to obtain the good news of Jesus' redemption. That repentance, to be real, must reflect the fact we have really made Jesus Lord, and not just serve him for some ulterior purpose.

The Apostle John in 1 John reiterates this over and over against those who didn't think it was necessary to focus on the divine Christ for our Salvation. He said that true Christianity displays Christ's righteousness in our lives, and confesses sins when they take place because they are contrary to our salvation.

Behold · Sep 30, 2022

Randy Kluth said:
So I disagree with you, as well. Salvation is indeed based on our repentance, .

You're changing your words, Randy, to fit your next opinion.
Originally you stated that salvation is based on this...

"""" Christ has forgiven our sins, and this forgiveness applies when we regularly practice repentance.""""

So, you are teaching that God's forgiveness is not based on the GIFT of Salvation that is given, when the Believer, first believes....
but rather you are teaching that Salvation is the result of the self effort of "regularly practice repentance".

So, that is the teaching of WORKS to try to be saved, vs the understanding that Salvation is a GIFT.
You teaching is : Galatians 1:8

You are teaching "here is what you must DO".....vs, "here is what God did for you, through Christ'".
So, your teaching is anti-Cross and denies the Grace of God.
You are welcome to revise your "here is what you must do", and replace it with John 3:16, and 2 Corinthians 5:19 at your earliest discretion, Randy.

Randy Kluth · Sep 30, 2022

Behold said:
You're changing your words, Randy, to fit your next opinion.
Originally you stated that salvation is based on this...

"""" Christ has forgiven our sins, and this forgiveness applies when we regularly practice repentance.""""

I don't know why you're so critical-minded? This is a virtual truism. Forgiveness comes when we repent. Really? Is this controversial? Are you just trying to pick a fight? I should think all Christians believe this?

Behold said:
So, you are teaching that God's forgiveness is not based on the GIFT of Salvation that is given, when the Believer, first believes....
but rather you are teaching that Salvation is the result of the self effort of "regularly practice repentance".

Clearly, you're trying to read something into my statement that doesn't even resemble what I said. I never said a thing about rejecting Christ's "gift," nor about earning our way to heaven via repentance. Pick a fight with a Mormon or a Moslem--not a fellow Christian!

The Christian Theocracy

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads