Faith without works is dead
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Stan and dragonfly ,you need to go back and re-read the previous posts.
One more thing I believe you don't realize /understand and that is the Catholic Church teaches what the apostles taught and what the Bible teaches : We are saved by grace alone , but not by faith alone [ which is what you "Bible Alone Christians" teach; see James 2:24 ]
When we come to God and are justified [ that is enter a right relationship with God ], nothing preceding justification, rather faith or good works, earns grace. But then God plants His love in our hearts, and we should live our faith by doing acts of love [ Gal. 6:2 ]
Even though only God's grace enables us to love others, these acts of love please Him, and He promises to reward them with eternal life [ Rom. 2: 6-7; Gal. 6:6-10 ] Thus "good works" are meritorious. When we first come to God in faith, we have nothing in our hands to offer Him. Then He gives us grace to obey His commandments in love, and He rewards us with salvation when we offer these acts of love back to him. [ Rom. 2:6-11, Gal. 6:6:6-10, Matt. 25: 34-40 ].
Jesus said it is not enough to have faith in Him; we also must obey His commandments, " Why do you call me ' Lord, Lord,' but do not do the things I command ? [ Luke 6:46, Matt. 7:21-23, 19:16-21]
We do not "earn" our salvation through good works [ Eph. 2; 8-9, Rom. 9:16 ], but our faith in Christ puts us in a special grace-filled relationship with God so that our obedience and love, combined with our faith, will be rewarded with eternal life [ Rom. 2:7, Gal. 6:8-9].
Paul said,: " God is the one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work" [ Phil. 2:13 ] John explained that " the way we may be sure that we know him is to keep his commandments. Whoever says, "I know him, " but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him "[ 1 John2:3-4, 3:19-24, 5:3-4 ]. Since no gift can be forced on the recipient -- gifts always can be rejected--even after we become justified, we can throw away the gift of salvation. We throw it away through grave [ mortal ] sin [ John 15:5-6, Rom. 11:22-23, 1 Cor. 15:1-2]. Paul tells us, "The wages of sin is death" [ Rom. 6:23 ]
Read his letters and see how often St.Paul warned Christians against sin!He would nothave felt compelled to do so if their sins could not exclude them from heaven [ see, for example, 1 Cor. 6:9-10, Gal. 5:19-21 ] Paul reminded the Christians in Rome that God "will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life for those who seek glory, honor , and immortity through perserverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness " [ Rom. 2:6-8 ]
Sins are nothing but evil works. We can avoid sins by habitually performing good works.
Hi neophyte,
I'm stuck on the first two paragraphs of your post (#182) because I can't make sense of the second one.
First of all, I understand what James is saying, so I'm not disputing the text you've used. But the Bible doesn't say we're 'saved by grace alone'.
It says this: Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Now, if you'd said we're justified by grace alone, through God's faith, that is biblical - quoting one of Paul's long sentences:
Romans 3:21 - 26 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ to all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: whom God has set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; to declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him who believes in Jesus.
Is your point that grace cannot be earned?
Moving on from that, you do know that Jesus said we should do the will of the Father (in heaven), don't you? Matt 7:21 This is what we will be judged on - not how many acts of love we've performed. Living out our faith is done by obeying God.
I'm stuck on the first two paragraphs of your post (#182) because I can't make sense of the second one.
First of all, I understand what James is saying, so I'm not disputing the text you've used. But the Bible doesn't say we're 'saved by grace alone'.
It says this: Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Now, if you'd said we're justified by grace alone, through God's faith, that is biblical - quoting one of Paul's long sentences:
Romans 3:21 - 26 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ to all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: whom God has set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; to declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him who believes in Jesus.
Is your point that grace cannot be earned?
Moving on from that, you do know that Jesus said we should do the will of the Father (in heaven), don't you? Matt 7:21 This is what we will be judged on - not how many acts of love we've performed. Living out our faith is done by obeying God.
OK, where does the Bible say they thought so highly of Him. I know in Matthew 5:22, Jesus made a point of others calling people fools by saying; But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.
Sounds to me like He was hearing it a lot.
When was the last time you were in Tel Aviv? Jews do it ALL the time there. Bars and restaurants are OPEN on shabbat.
You have a lot more respect apparently for Jews than for Protestants. That is kind of sad and quite frankly surprising given I never saw that kind of blatant hostility when I was a RC. It must just be you.
I'm not sure I'm getting the gist of this conversation, so forgive me if I'm misunderstanding you.
You said "a true Jew worth his salt would never swallow that gullible tripe." That 'tripe' is a Jew 'up and disregarding the law'...that if it did happen, it must have been a 'poorly educated silly' person only claiming to be a Jew.
My response: What about Paul? Here is a man who vehemently denied Christ, who was flawless in regards to keeping the Laws. A man who was as about as educated as you could get in those times, and a 'Jew of Jews' in his bloodlines.
And yet after his miraculous conversion it is Paul who spends all the his letters pounding away at grace by faith in Christ alone. He decimates any argument that one must still live under the Mosaic Laws.
But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party.
And the rest of the Jews acted hypocritically along with him, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy. But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, “If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?”
We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. (Galatians 2:11-16 ESV)
This comes across as very ignorant to have so little understanding not to understand that this lot knew who he was and that they tryed to have him destroyed time and time again, but fell flat on the ass when having a go, so no they did not think lowly of him at all. but were happy with the way things were before he came. read you Bible.
I am not angry with you at all and you could not anger me at all. and i have not called you a damned fool. but pointing out things to you.
I respect people for what they are not who they are.
Did you come from a lukewarm RC community as your account comes across like that to me.
I am talking about true orthodox Jews of today will not fall for it.
And Paul is not saying anything against Christ as he can't and we are not under the Law but Christ put the Law in it's true perspective and never tossed it away or rejected it now did he.
Paul is talking to an audiences at the time one must remember.
No this will come.
Non-responsive and rude to boot. Is this how RCs on this Forum always debate? I ask for a verse and you guys tell me to read my Bible? I give you verses and instead of properly rebutting you say "our church doesn't accept that".
I can't accept that you respect anyone, BUT RCs, from what I've read from you so far on this thread.
I'm not interested in RC rhetoric, I'm interested in Biblical truth. FYI, I came from a VERY typical RC parish. One that had nuns and brothers and priests, ran a farm and a school, all of which they did very well. They did seem to me, in hindsight now, to be more interested in walking the walk, instead of talking it.
Well they have and still do. Orthodox Jews AND RC's are getting saved everyday, whether you acknowledge it or not.
Saul killed Christians for Jewish orthodox beliefs and spoke against the church all the time. Acts 9:1; Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord's disciples.
Matthew 5:18; For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
Yes Jesus did put a new perspective on the laws. Notice He says throughout chapter 5 here that; “You have heard that it was said"
Notice he never says, IT IS WRITTEN. Jesus told them the fallacies and then told them the truth. It is clear that the so-called Laws that the Pharisees and Teachers of the Law at that time were propagating, were in fact NOT from God, and Jesus was clarifying what the false teachings were and what the truth was. He was indeed rejecting the hearsay that was so prevalent to Jews in that day. All because they listened to their church leaders and NOT to what God said in His Word and by His prophets.
Just to be clear, Paul was WRITING to the Galatians, NOT talking to an audience, which you would know if you read that scripture.
How easy it is, it seems, for some people to still have the WRONG perspective on God's laws.
Isn't it great that we have the Word of God? I.E. IT IS WRITTEN. Truth is it's just not possible to have the wrong perception when one reads what is written. The reading ability of an 11 year old is all that's required to "get it".
Given the fact that "Christian" pulpit's today are full of false prophets/people who aren't Christian, its not a stretch of the imagination to imagine the Pharisee's not actually even being Jewish. But I'm not sure if that can be proven biblically as I seem to recall Jesus referring to them several times as "the Jews". Thoughts?
Ah, I have to think you are completely wrong here Mr R. The Pharisees didn't believe Jesus was the Christ. They were enraged that this man claimed to be God...that's the ultimate reason they had him put to death (or the excuse they used for it). Most certainly they did not like what Jesus was preaching, but I doubt they would have also accused him of working his miracles via the power of Satan if they truly thought Jesus was Messiah. (Matt 10:25; 12:24)
We see in Matt 12:14 that the Pharisees clearly knew that Jesus was claiming to be the Messiah, but they did not believe it themselves...they judged such a claim to be the worst kind of heresy.
In fact in Matt 16:1, 19:3, 22:15; Luke 11:53-54 we see nothing to suggest that the Pharisees believe Jesus to try be the Messiah. In John 9:16 it says; "Some of the Pharisees said, 'This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath'. But others said, 'How can a man who is a sinner do such signs?'. And there was great division between them." They were divided about who Jesus was, but it did not occur to them that he truly was who he claimed to be.
We also see the 'Pharisaical' view in Paul's zealousness. He despised Christ, believing him to be a blasphemer of the worst sort. The moment Jesus revealed himself to Paul as truly God, the conversion was instant and complete.
A true orthodox Jew will not fall for dismissing the law? A Jew of today? Um...what about the Jews who come to Jesus and do just that? There are a fair number of them out there, you know, who are of Jewish decent who live just as I or other Christians do...in Christ's grace alone.
As far as your next sentence, I'm not sure I comprehend it...its very hard to read...punctuation is usually used for a reason...just fyi. I'm not aware that I claimed that Paul said anything against Jesus in his letters. And just because the law is fulfilled doesn't mean it was tossed away. And just because something is not tossed away, doesn't mean it is still used. If you have an loan with the bank, you make repayments until it is completed. Once it is completed, it doesn't void what you brought or did with that loan, but you most certainly aren't still making payments!
And yes, obviously Paul is talking to the audiences of the time, but every single thing he says to them has implications and applications for us now. Jew or Gentile...as we are all one in Christ...
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave or free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal 3:28
Yes, it is great that we have God's Word. The problem is when it is read WITHOUT the Holy Spirit's input and guidance. An eleven year old is highly likely to be able to READ the words of a modern English Bible, but whether he would actually understand the context and grammar, as well as whether it is literal or figurative, would most likely be far beyond him. That is the reason we have Sunday School in Church. To help eleven year olds understand and assimilate the truth in scripture. These eleven year olds are taught by people who do understand scripture and have proven themselves to be able to properly teach kids of that and similar ages. Get it?
Are you also an RC that is looking to bash protestants? There are definitely some flakes out there, but the pulpits are not full as you put it. Pharisees have to be Jewish, but yes there are non-Jewish people with Pharisaical POV's for sure. Jesus only referred to the Jewish ones. I see the non-Jewish ones ALL the time, like in forums of this nature. They do seem to come out of the wood-work so to speak.
You accuse me of being a catholic? How odd. Oh well, it is crazy whacky forum land, what are you gonna do? Protestants are no better than catholics, and you will note, neither are in the bible. I'm a bible believer. Correction, Christ calls them Nicolaitions.
The simple point I obviously failed to make clearly is, thank God He is given us His word. Does it really matter if some one wants to twist it into something unrecogniseable? You can throw mud on a diamond, but it doesn't do any damage to it.
That's brilliant! It's hard to remember sometimes, when you see so much twisting and distorting done to the word of God...but what you say is true....the word of God is far from powerless and nothing in this world can destroy it. We may feel like we're constantly trying to polish off that mud...but it's worth it and we need to remember that it is not up to us alone. We always have a helper and we trust in God to reveal his absolute truth to all he chooses to.
[font=trebuchet ms']Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.[/font]
[font=trebuchet ms']What is sad is that we need to contend for the truth in a Christian Forum with people who cliam to be Christian. (If I can be bothered)[/font]
I'm pretty sure I asked a question watch. I didn't accuse you of anything. How odd that you would take a question and turn it into an accusation.
Just exactly WHO did Christ say the Nicolaitans were?
Yes I thank God always for His word and yes I matters when people try to twist it, as you will note from my signature.
The fact is, Paul was always teaching against false teachers and prophets. They existed in fairly significant numbers when he was alive. It stands to reason there are many more today. I would give you a few but I am concerned about this sites liability if those I named found out.
Just exactly where do you think false teaching starts? It starts IN the church. That is also who frequents these type of forums.
We should be ready to contend wherever we are needed.
Hi Rach,
I liked this very much!
'If you have an loan with the bank, you make repayments until it is completed. Once it is completed, it doesn't void what you brought or did with that loan, but you most certainly aren't still making payments!'
Thanks!
Going back to the time of Christ, I do believe 'they' knew who He was, and that's partly because they did accuse Him of having an unclean spirit. This is the kind of thing which comes out of the mouths of men in an unpremeditated way, whose hearts are not towards God. I could say more about this, particularly John 8 - the whole chapter. The ending of this parable, too, recorded also in Mark 12 and Luke 20.
Here is Matthew 21:37 - end.
But last of all he sent to them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. And they caught him, and cast [him] out of the vineyard, and slew [him]. When the lord therefore of the vineyard comes, what will he do unto those husbandmen? They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out [his] vineyard to other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I to you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.
Regarding who was actually Jewish in the hierarchy which collaborated to put Jesus to death, I would draw attention to the fact there were two High Priests, related to each other by marriage. There should have been only one High Priest at a time, according to the law. I've heard they were Edomites - descendants of Esau therefore. I haven't read the literature which points in this direction, but perhaps someone else here, has. Really what I'm saying is, God permitted a great deal of disfunction in Israel before His Christ was revealed. And, as in any other 'organisation' where the leadership is corrupt (although there were good men trapped in it), the people on the receiving end knew things were wrong, and Jesus very often speaks to help them keep a right perspective on what they ought to do to please God, despite the traditions of men being laid on them.
I liked this very much!
'If you have an loan with the bank, you make repayments until it is completed. Once it is completed, it doesn't void what you brought or did with that loan, but you most certainly aren't still making payments!'
Thanks!
Going back to the time of Christ, I do believe 'they' knew who He was, and that's partly because they did accuse Him of having an unclean spirit. This is the kind of thing which comes out of the mouths of men in an unpremeditated way, whose hearts are not towards God. I could say more about this, particularly John 8 - the whole chapter. The ending of this parable, too, recorded also in Mark 12 and Luke 20.
Here is Matthew 21:37 - end.
But last of all he sent to them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. And they caught him, and cast [him] out of the vineyard, and slew [him]. When the lord therefore of the vineyard comes, what will he do unto those husbandmen? They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out [his] vineyard to other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I to you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.
Regarding who was actually Jewish in the hierarchy which collaborated to put Jesus to death, I would draw attention to the fact there were two High Priests, related to each other by marriage. There should have been only one High Priest at a time, according to the law. I've heard they were Edomites - descendants of Esau therefore. I haven't read the literature which points in this direction, but perhaps someone else here, has. Really what I'm saying is, God permitted a great deal of disfunction in Israel before His Christ was revealed. And, as in any other 'organisation' where the leadership is corrupt (although there were good men trapped in it), the people on the receiving end knew things were wrong, and Jesus very often speaks to help them keep a right perspective on what they ought to do to please God, despite the traditions of men being laid on them.
Huh...good point. I'll have to think on it. The Parable does suggest that, doesn't it? Don't know that it changes any central doctrines, but by golly it sheds new light on the blight of the Pharisees, doesn't it. Spend hundreds of years longing for something, yet when it gets there, because it's not how you pictured it, you kill it? That's bad enough...but they had to have had zero real faith in YHWH to think that he would take kindly to the murder of his son.
the works of james are the works that come from sincere faith!! the works that Paul descibed as uncceptable to God were works of the law!!! so clear yet so many covinced they can keep the 10??? i would not have known covetousness unless the LAW had said thou shalt not covet! but i found the COMMANDMENT produced in ME all types of evil desires! for apart from the law sin is dead!! the ministery of death written and engraved on stones!!! i cant understand how folks dont get it???? its SO CLEAR!!! i could on but i have found that the self-righteous will never listen to someone tell them they can NOT KEEP THE LAW!!!!!!
Hi brother dave,
But, if you have entered the New Covenant through faith in Jesus Christ, you do agree there is at least one 'law' to be walked in?
But, if you have entered the New Covenant through faith in Jesus Christ, you do agree there is at least one 'law' to be walked in?
What idea are you now talking about?
I didn't ask WHAT they were, I asked WHO they were?
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