Lawless Ones subverting the truth in Christ.

rand · Sep 29, 2012

bearing one another's burdens mean to love them the way Christ loved the church: sacrificially. That is the new command He gave us. If you love me, you will keep my commands.......and my command is this that you love...

Jesus taught us to love stranges, pray for our enemys and to love others like we love ourselves. This is not new to us, but it was un-heard of in His day.

epostle1 · Sep 29, 2012

Inviting the lonely geek who sits by himself in the lunchroom to sit with you might be a way of bearing his burdens. He needs friendship first before bible verses.

dragonfly · Sep 29, 2012

Hi rand,

the more you mix in the law with the gospel of grace, the more you will look at yourself and the less you will look at Christ.

This is a true statement. Turning oneself from whatever has distracted to look at Christ again, is the key to being changed into His likeness 2 Cor 3:18 and walking in the Spirit aka walking in the light as He is in the light aka Gal 2:20 mean that we experience freedom from sin in fact.

Hi Dragonfly,
Please show me how I took the scriptures out of context. I really want to know.

I gave this brief explanation in post #87:

'And so because of Christ's having come and dealt with sin on our behalf, Romans 5:13 is out of context completely, in the way you have used it (and Romans 4:15 would be too), because both of these verses refer to the era when death reigned; whereas now, Christ has abolished death for us, and He reigns in life, and we with Him. That is, we reign over sin and death in our lives, through His faith (Gal 2:20).

Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)'

Rom 4:15b for where no law is, [there is] no transgression, is a technical statement. A transgression only exists where there is a law to break. Paul is not saying there was no sin and death anymore, as he points out in Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But he does say that Adam had 'transgressed'. That's because God had given a command to Adam, (before Eve existed) which Adam had broken:

Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Eventually through Moses the law was given, to make the Israelites aware of sin and prepare them for the spotless Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world John 1:29, 36. Once Jesus had sacrificed Himself the law for us had been perfectly fulfilled in Him.

Rom 10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believes. 5 For Moses describes the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which does those things shall live by them....'

We, who believed into Jesus Christ are in a new era, in which we are dead to sin. Rom 6:11 - 16.

Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who has raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, has he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit

I hope this fuller explanation clarifies what I meant by 'context'. The cross was a cosmic event of singular importance. Rom 8:22, 2 Tim 1:10.

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same;
that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

I do not see going back under the law as an option, because it no longer can save those who keep it, Heb 9:15. For Gentiles who never had the law, the law of sin and death reigns just the same, Rom 5:14 over those who have not believed in Jesus Christ the Righteous. Rom 3:26.

Axehead · Sep 29, 2012

kepha31 said:
Let's compare the Mosaic law with the weightier matters of the law (which rests in the crucible of the law)

Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, *justice*, *mercy*, and *faith*: these ought you to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Galatians 6:2 Bear you one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.

The question is, how do we exercise *justice*, *mercy*, and *faith* by bearing on anothers burdens? What does "bearing one anthers burdens" mean to you?

It's not what "bearing one another's burdens" means to us that matters but what it means to the Holy Spirit. We don't walk by our own understanding or a "rule book". We walk by the Spirit so if we make ourselves available to the Holy Spirit (which is abiding in Christ) then we may be surprised at how He moves us to "bear" someone's burden that in our own thinking apart from the Holy Spirit, we would never have entertained. The 'good works' that we do are the works authored by the Lord who dwells within us.

Axehead

dragonfly · Sep 29, 2012

I need to correct the last sentence of my previous post.

'For Gentiles who never had the law, and Israelites and Jews since the time of Jesus Messiah, the law of sin and death reigns just the same, Rom 5:14 over those who have not believed in Jesus Christ the Righteous. Rom 3:26.

epostle1 · Sep 29, 2012

Axehead said:
It's not what "bearing one another's burdens" means to us that matters but what it means to the Holy Spirit. We don't walk by our own understanding or a "rule book". We walk by the Spirit so if we make ourselves available to the Holy Spirit (which is abiding in Christ) then we may be surprised at how He moves us to "bear" someone's burden that in our own thinking apart from the Holy Spirit, we would never have entertained. The 'good works' that we do are the works authored by the Lord who dwells within us.

Axehead

I couldn't agree more. But I could never agree with total depravity.

rand · Sep 29, 2012

Hi Dragonfly,

I think we are still not seeing eye-to-eye on this one. and I think I see where we differ and it's not the verses mentioned earlier, but the verse you just mentioned: we are dead to sin. It seems you believe that means that we can not (or should not) sin. I look at it as if sin is not counted against us, and we can not sin because we are not under the law but under grace (a whole different and better covenant). We are dead to sin. You cant punish a man for a crime when he is dead. Think of the story of Hosea and his less than perfect wife. THat's us as the church (bride of Christ) and Jesus. Eventhough we are not true to Him He is true and loving to us. He knew what He was getting when He betrothed us and He promised anyway.

I'm not saying it's okay to sin. I'm not saying that at all. Sin is wrong and it hurts either ourselves or others or both. What I am saying is that when we do sin, that's okay. It's not the end of the world, we are already forgiven. When we accept guilt and condemnation, that will make it harder to stop sinning. Condemnation comes from being under the law. Peace, love, and rest comes from being under grace and truth.

It was grace that taught me the peace that passes understanding. It was grace that taught me how deep and wide and high His love is for us. You don't get that when you keep believing that He is mad at your sin. He isn't. Sin has been paid for--in full. Under the law, you will fear judgement. Under grace you will run and jump into your daddy's arms. Under the law you will pray thanking God that you are not like those sinners, under grace you will pray for those sinners in love because you know that God loves them so much, and if they only understood how valuable they are to HIm, they wouldn't be treating themselves (or others) the way they do. People don't know how much they mean to the Father because we keep telling them the law which demands but gives nothing to help meet the demands. Jesus met the demands for us. He did all the work and we get all the credit. Thank God it's not fair--it's easy.

dragonfly · Sep 29, 2012

Hi rand,

It's late in my neck of the woods, so this is a very short post.

You have correctly identified that we don't see eye to eye, and I think that's because your reasoning through the transition from law to grace, is incomplete - or, you have not expressed it fully.

There is still a prohibition on sin, and the NT is full of information about how sin should be dealt with by Christians. It cannot be ignored just because of Romans 10:4. It must be processed appropriately - and I am not suggesting that you don't do that - but there are many people who don't, whose Christian lives are dogged by the fact they have not acknowledged their sinfulness and not found repentance either.

Whether you realise it or not, if you have really and truly found release from the power of sin, it is because you have genuinely received the death of Jesus Christ to put to death sin in you. If you know you are still sinning like before, but, you don't worry about it any more, that's dodgy.

You cant punish a man for a crime when he is dead.

I think you are focused on the wrong thing there. The Lord took the punishment. And He broke the power of sin when He died.

Paul said:

Galatians 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified to me, and I to the world.

In other words, not only can dead men not be punished, dead men cannot sin.

lawrance · Sep 29, 2012

rand said:
I disagree, Mr. The law is not the foundation--Jesus is the foundation, He's the rock, He's the fortress, He's the strong tower. And the OT is there to reveal Jesus and Jesus is come to reveal the Father. Jesus did not throw away the Law, He fulfilled it. Then God nailed it (the 10 Commandments) to the cross disarming the enemy. When we re-introduce the law into grace we are giving back the enemy his arms against us. That's just what the enemy wants us to do.

Hi son of man,

What does it mean to you to be "in Christ"? I am in Christ because I follow (imitate) Him, because I believe in Him, and because He has forgiven all my sins and He washes me clean. Are you sugesting that being in Christ is by your works? You can do nothing apart from Him. Your righteousness by your works are like filthy rags to Him. If we walk in the light as He is in the light then He cleanses us from all unrighteousness. How can walking in the light be the same as not sinning? What is He cleansing us from, then?

I like to think of it this way: If we walk in the knowledge of the truth of Grace as He is, then He cleanses us from all our unrighteousness.

I hope that hleps.

He has not forgiven you of all your sines at all. you have to confess your sin to be forgiven.

Anyone's works are not where it is at, at all, as it's his works that are the Light and only the works in the Light are from Jesus. by the way RCC does not support the any your works doctrine at all. so i don't know where such fools get that from, that must be Satan inspired. it's just ridiculous that anyone would support such utter stupidity.

Disarming the enemy how can one say that, can't you see Satan at work all around you. and all we need do is sit down and do nothing, you think and all will be fine.

Remember when Jesus was talking to Satan ? Satan is a tempter, as he will lead one astray if you are not on the ball.

Grace is way above the Law.
The Law is a foundation or one of the foundations and the Bible is an other and Holy Moses another etc but Jesus is the one rejected by who? and why ? so the fact is the whole lot will collapse with out Jesus.

rand said:
bearing one another's burdens mean to love them the way Christ loved the church: sacrificially. That is the new command He gave us. If you love me, you will keep my commands.......and my command is this that you love...

Jesus taught us to love stranges, pray for our enemys and to love others like we love ourselves. This is not new to us, but it was un-heard of in His day.

See you do know, to keep Jesus commandments. and this is how it works.
Like you could say a Judge charges you with murder and you say it's not your fault because off this or that, but the Judge, if he did not have Grace he would just condemn you without any regard at all, as it does not matter at all what the story is. as you may as well chopped his head off with an axe in cold blood, then because he fell down the stairs blind drunk.

rand · Sep 29, 2012

Hi again, Dragonfly
You said that I was focused on the wrong thing because of my dead to sin comment, but I guess that depends on which side you're looking at it from. You also said that He broke the power of sin when He died on the cross. Yes, very true. But do you know what that power was? 1Cor 15:56 it was the law. You know, I am not completly without sin, but I have been released from the bondage of the law. I would love to tell you more but I'll be breif for now (incase you are waiting up to read this.

)

I was an alcoholic. I had to have a strong drink everyday. I never missed a day in about 10 years. I couldn't stop no matter how hard I tried. Once I got a hold of this teaching that God is not mad at me because of my drinking, it relieved a lot of pressure. Iknew He was my Father and He saw me as His son whom He loved enough to die for. I tried to stop in my own strength and was so bad at it. I was so ashamed, and I was so frustrated. I got the Grace teaching, and this guy was telling me to stop accepting the guilt and condemnation. Instead, everytime I felt guilt, I should say, 'Father, I thank you that I am right before you because of Jesus, not because of me. I am righteous before you because of Christ's obedience and not mine. I know you have forgiven me and I thank you.'
I must have said that a million times over two or three weeks before I realized I wasn't just reciting what my friend had told me, I was actually praising God. Once I began to praise God that way (with those same words) I never stopped. That was almost 4 years ago and God is so amazing I just want everyone to know it. I didn't have to go thru a 12 step program or anything. I just had to realize that the reason I was having such a hard time guitting is because I was trying to hard. I was focusing more on my flesh than I was focusing on Him.

Now, I can have a drink anytime I want and I never over-do it. At my son's weding, I drank a toast and that was it. I have a drink maybe once or twice a year. My drinking problem is under my feet. Knowing the truth has truly set me free. And, it wasn't just with drinking, but I said I'd keep it short, so....

Hi Mr.

Yes, He has forgiven all our sins, not only ours but the whole world's sin. If we confess, He will forgive. And He has forgiven because we have confessed. I have anyway. Yes, I still do but not so that He will forgive me, but so that I do not let it grab hold of me. The enemy has a sneaky little way of letting our minds lead us in the wrong direction, and if we don't repent (change the way we think) we will soon be walking in that wrong direction.

Yes, I do see Satan working all around us. But I didn't say that (that God disarmed the enemy by nailing the 10 commandments to the cross), Paul did in Col 2:14-15. By mixing the law with grace we are agreeing with Satan giving him back that power over us. Do you not see that we are still giving him his authority over us? When you believe the lie, you empower the lier. Just like Adam and Eve did in the garden.. and yes, I see this happening everywhere, even in the church.

Jesus was rejected by the Law and by all those who were so deep in it. It's always been that way. Joseph was rejected by his 10 (commandments) brothers who shared the same Father, but a different mother who their Father really didn't love but was tricked into marying. But, oh how Joseph's father loved his mother, that's why he loved Joseph and Ben more than the 10 brothers.

Trekson · Sep 29, 2012

Hi Episkopos, Your words:"Remember it was the Pharisees who sought to interpret the bible that received the greatest condemnation."

They weren't condemned for interpreting the bible, they were condemned for making and insisting on many, many burdensome laws that left common sense and love out and the rule of only the law in. Sound familiar?

lawrance · Sep 30, 2012

rand said:
Hi again, Dragonfly
You said that I was focused on the wrong thing because of my dead to sin comment, but I guess that depends on which side you're looking at it from. You also said that He broke the power of sin when He died on the cross. Yes, very true. But do you know what that power was? 1Cor 15:56 it was the law. You know, I am not completly without sin, but I have been released from the bondage of the law. I would love to tell you more but I'll be breif for now (incase you are waiting up to read this. )

I was an alcoholic. I had to have a strong drink everyday. I never missed a day in about 10 years. I couldn't stop no matter how hard I tried. Once I got a hold of this teaching that God is not mad at me because of my drinking, it relieved a lot of pressure. Iknew He was my Father and He saw me as His son whom He loved enough to die for. I tried to stop in my own strength and was so bad at it. I was so ashamed, and I was so frustrated. I got the Grace teaching, and this guy was telling me to stop accepting the guilt and condemnation. Instead, everytime I felt guilt, I should say, 'Father, I thank you that I am right before you because of Jesus, not because of me. I am righteous before you because of Christ's obedience and not mine. I know you have forgiven me and I thank you.'
I must have said that a million times over two or three weeks before I realized I wasn't just reciting what my friend had told me, I was actually praising God. Once I began to praise God that way (with those same words) I never stopped. That was almost 4 years ago and God is so amazing I just want everyone to know it. I didn't have to go thru a 12 step program or anything. I just had to realize that the reason I was having such a hard time guitting is because I was trying to hard. I was focusing more on my flesh than I was focusing on Him.

Now, I can have a drink anytime I want and I never over-do it. At my son's weding, I drank a toast and that was it. I have a drink maybe once or twice a year. My drinking problem is under my feet. Knowing the truth has truly set me free. And, it wasn't just with drinking, but I said I'd keep it short, so....

Hi Mr.

Yes, He has forgiven all our sins, not only ours but the whole world's sin. If we confess, He will forgive. And He has forgiven because we have confessed. I have anyway. Yes, I still do but not so that He will forgive me, but so that I do not let it grab hold of me. The enemy has a sneaky little way of letting our minds lead us in the wrong direction, and if we don't repent (change the way we think) we will soon be walking in that wrong direction.

Yes, I do see Satan working all around us. But I didn't say that (that God disarmed the enemy by nailing the 10 commandments to the cross), Paul did in Col 2:14-15. By mixing the law with grace we are agreeing with Satan giving him back that power over us. Do you not see that we are still giving him his authority over us? When you believe the lie, you empower the lier. Just like Adam and Eve did in the garden.. and yes, I see this happening everywhere, even in the church.

Jesus was rejected by the Law and by all those who were so deep in it. It's always been that way. Joseph was rejected by his 10 (commandments) brothers who shared the same Father, but a different mother who their Father really didn't love but was tricked into marying. But, oh how Joseph's father loved his mother, that's why he loved Joseph and Ben more than the 10 brothers.

So you are saying that God got it wrong then with the commandments then ? Holy Moses was not of God, then ?
Grace is not mixed up with the 10 as it's above them, way above them, as it is in order now. ( you can't mix them up.!)
We are the Jews ( so to speak ) "Israel" ? there is no old or new, Jew or Gentile we are one in the same in Jesus. as there is no other way to salvation. Jesus did not toss away anything, but fulfilled. we have been grafted in to the same, roots and all. and we must abide in the vine. if we do not abide then the Father will prune the dead branches. and that is coming in time.
Remember Holy Moses had to deal with the mob with in that worshiped the Golden Calf rubbish and this type are always tempting people with there rubbish and they came against Holy Moses rejecting him to ! just like the bastards that wanted Jesus out of the way. but the fact is Jesus is not just a prophet, now is he !
Why do you think the Jews lost the land ? ( the vineyard ?) They were the tenants ?

Trekson said:
Hi Episkopos, Your words:"Remember it was the Pharisees who sought to interpret the bible that received the greatest condemnation."

They weren't condemned for interpreting the bible, they were condemned for making and insisting on many, many burdensome laws that left common sense and love out and the rule of only the law in. Sound familiar?

Fact is they knew exactly what they were doing, as they had there own agenda and twisted things to there own cause. they did not want Jesus at all, as they had it all in the bag and were doing fine as an leech on the ass of Rome.

rand · Sep 30, 2012

Moses and the Jews were under the law. There is a difference between the old and new covenant. That's what I've been trying toexplain. It is possible to mix the two that's what Paul was getting onto the Galians for. That's what it means to mix hot and cold (you get lukewarm), and that's why we are told to learn to seperate the truths of the old and the truths of the new covenants. By your last reply, you are still mixing them by explaining away a new covenate concept with something said under the old covenant.

and no, God did not get it wrong, but He never wanted to give the law, that's not where His heart was. Did you know that no one died in the wilderness until the law came? Did you know 3000 people died? Did you know 3000 people were saved when the Holy Spirit came? Did you know that Moses' firtst miracle was turning water into blood (death) and Jesus' first miracle was turning water into wine (life). Law is the ministry of death and condemnation.

I'm really not writing all this for you, I'm pretty sure you will not see it. I'm writing that someone who knows the way they are believing is not working and that they might come to the truth.

dragonfly · Sep 30, 2012

Hi rand,
Thanks for your further reply, and tremendous testimony.

Yes, praising God - worshipping Him - is a bondage-breaker for sure!

You said that I was focused on the wrong thing because of my dead to sin comment

It wasn't your 'dead to sin' comment, but that a dead person cannot be punished, which arrested me. I would say if the person is dead, they cannot sin - and then a punishment is not in the frame at all. And this really is my main point - being truly baptised into Christ's death is what frees us from the power of sin. Paul explains this in sufficient detail in Romans 6. He has, in Romans 5, mentioned the Holy Spirit.

You also said that He broke the power of sin when He died on the cross. Yes, very true. But do you know what that power was? 1Cor 15:56 it was the law.

Okay.... could you think about this a bit longer, please? The only reason 'the law' had any power to show up the sinfulness of mankind, was that mankind was sinful already. The law did not create our sinfulness, it merely opened our eyes to it.

And it's that 'power of sin' which was already in mankind, which Jesus broke before He cried, 'It is finished!' Then He took the vinegar - symbolically our sinfulness (just as the wine is symbolically His life for us to drink) - and immediately gave up His spirit, and died.

In other words, by taking not only our sin into Himself and dying, His being raised from among the dead was also for us who believe into Him. We are, through faith, raised with Him for the purpose of living the rest of our lives on earth, to righteousness and holiness, in the power of His life - grace. This is the 'newness of life' of Romans 6:4, which John describes in many different ways in his first epistle.

rand · Sep 30, 2012

Yes, Dragonfly. I agree completly with almost everything you said. Everything except : 'and it's that power of sin, which was in mankind already' The power of sin is the law. and the law was not in mankind until God gave the law. Also you said 'the only reason the law had any power to show up the sinfulness of mankind is because mankind was sinful already.' I'm not sure what you mean by that, but it's true what you said after that. The law came to show the Jews what sin was. Paul said he would not know lust unless the law said thou shall not lust. However, we are also told that the law came that sin should abound. What does abound mean in this context? Get worst? Sin more? I don't know Greek or Hebrew but I bet it would be an interesting study.

We also have no way of knowing if Adam and Eve ever committed an act that would now be cosidered sin. Did he get angry and kick the cat? Did he ever bite Eve out of anger? Did she ever lie to him? Honestly we don't know, maybe because it doesn't matter. Maybe it doesn't change anything, because they were not 'sinning' because there was no law against any of it. So, the point I'm trying to make is: What difference will an act of sin make in a Christians life?

dragonfly · Sep 30, 2012

We also have no way of knowing if Adam and Eve ever committed an act that would now be cosidered sin. Did he get angry and kick the cat? Did he ever bite Eve out of anger? Did she ever lie to him? Honestly we don't know, maybe because it doesn't matter. Maybe it doesn't change anything, because they were not 'sinning' because there was no law against any of it. So, the point I'm trying to make is: What difference will an act of sin make in a Christians life?

Hi rand,

I don't have a problem with accepting the account in Genesis, in which Adam made a decision to disobey God's first negative command. At the moment that Adam died, all his descendants also died.

This is the 'death' which automatically follows the sinfulness which all Adam's descendants experience.

Because of this spiritual fact of human nature, the mission of Jesus Christ - to make it possible for us to be freed from both the power of sin and inevitable wages of sin (death), was necessarily extreme, involving His own death, to bring us eternal life.

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: Mark 15:25
15 That whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. John 17:3
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that does truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Axehead · Sep 30, 2012

dragonfly said:
Hi rand,

Okay.... could you think about this a bit longer, please? The only reason 'the law' had any power to show up the sinfulness of mankind, was that mankind was sinful already. The law did not create our sinfulness, it merely opened our eyes to it.

As soon as Adam and Eve transgressed, sin entered the world.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

We understand that sin is always laying at our "door".
Gen_4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

We know there was sin before the Law because God stated there was sin.
Gen 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;

People still understood what sin was.
Gen_20:9 Then Abimelech called Abraham, and said unto him, What hast thou done unto us? and what have I offended thee, that thou hast brought on me and on my kingdom a great sin? thou hast done deeds unto me that ought not to be done.

Yes, because of the law, sin did increase. That is why he goes on to say that "where sin abounded, grace did much more abound". MUCH MORE, is a quantitative not qualitative phrase.
Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

In Romans 6, Paul goes on to explain that though you have been set free from sin (Rom 6:22a But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God...)

that we should not yield ourselves to sin (we still have a choice to sin) which will still lead to death.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

And just to put an exclamation upon what Paul is trying to say, he closes with this:
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

There is a false gospel that says if we pray a prayer and receive the Lord Jesus that now nothing we ever do will be held against us because we got "our ticket punched" and have received our "free admission" to eternal life and now, no matter how we live, nothing will be held against us.

This is a false security that has brought a slumber upon the Church and caused them to be worldly and not consider that Christ died for us so that not only will we be set free from sin and no longer be a slave to it, but that we would walk in holiness before Him.

Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Notice the order of things here. There is no eternal life if there is no holiness.

People call obedience and holiness works and yes they are. They are the works of the Holy Spirit in a life that is yielded to Him.

Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
1Co 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

Many profess to know God, they have all the words to convince you, yet the Lord looks at our actions and does not just naively receive what rolls off of our lips.

Mar 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.

A man will act according to what is in his heart.

Tit 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

So, the blessings and the curses are still here today and so is the Law. When you walk in the flesh thinking your are pleasing God, you have put yourself back under the law and its curses.

Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

2Co_13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Axehead

justaname · Oct 1, 2012

Axehead,

Can you confirm this statement of yours with scripture, the underlined part?

"So, the blessings and the curses are still here today and so is the Law. When you walk in the flesh thinking your are pleasing God, you have put yourself back under the law and its curses."

I have never heard of a Christian "going back under the Law". What you speak of is absurd. Gentiles were never under the Law and never will be. Only Jews are under the Law, but everyone is accountable to God.

Romans 2:12

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,

15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Axehead · Oct 1, 2012

Galatians 3:10
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

rand · Oct 1, 2012

Hi Justaname,

Read Galatians and pay particular attention to 1:6 and 4:9-13. Paul is getting onto them because they are trying to pu a little bit of the law into the gospel of grace. 'Who has bewitched you?' I marvel at how soon you would turn from the truth to go back into bondage (Gal 4:9).

Right Gentiles were never under the law, but now we are not gentiles, we are the seed of Abraham if we are in Christ. The Galatians went back under the law (at least to some degree) and Paul tried to put a stop to it. This is what it means to be luke warm: mixing Hot (grace) and Cold (Law). Mixing the new wine (Grace) and old wineskins (Law).

Under Grace, our sins (the belivers') have already been judged in Christ. We can't plead 'not guilty' but we don't have to plead guilty. We can, because of Jesus, plead the Blood.

Lawless Ones subverting the truth in Christ.

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