The 144,000 before God at the end.

Davy · Apr 30, 2024

What's the main purpose of Christ's Church? ANSWER: to preach The Gospel of Jesus Christ to those who have not heard.

Is Christ's Salvation open to everyone that will believe?? YES! except for Satan and his angels that rebelled with him. They are already judged and sentenced to perish.

What about the "tares" then in Christ's parable of the tares of the field, the ones that Jesus said the devil sowed? Is Christ's Salvation open to them also IF they will believe? YES! them also, IF they will believe on Jesus Christ.

Yet that parable of the tares, and the Jude 4 Scripture, and in Romans 9 about the vessels fit for destruction, and the condemnation upon the "brute beasts" of 2 Peter 2:12, and Jude 10, reveals that God has 'ordained'... a people upon this earth to serve Satan. Those are the "tares" Jesus was showing.

Jude 4
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
KJV

That idea, those "... who were before of old ordained to this condemnation...", means God ordained those to work against Christ even before the foundation of this world.

Just as God ordained His elect in Christ before the foundation of the world, per Ephesians 1:4, these "tares" also were pre-ordained to work against Christ as servants of the devil.

Can they be saved? Yes, IF they will repent and believe on Jesus Christ. But the 2 Peter 2:12 and Jude 10 Scripture reveals the "tares" have a propensity to follow the devil, as being in their 'nature'. So I'd say it is very, very difficult to convert the "tares" to Christ, but it is possible, IF they will repent to Jesus, and believe on Him, and be saved!

Have any of you brethren ever heard this about the "tares" taught in your Church? If not, then WHY not? By this parable Jesus gave, it shows you there's a spiritual war that's been going on in this world between the 'seed' that Christ sowed, and the seed ("tares") which the devil sowed.

This means, even in the Church, use the old saying by ex-President Reagan, "trust but verify."

brightfame52 · Apr 30, 2024

Timtofly said:
There is no implication of the church at all. It is clearly about Jacob's offspring via 12 of Jacob's sons or grandsons.

No its clearly the Church, you are trusting in the flesh, you salvation by the flesh, ethnicity, thats a denial of Grace

brightfame52 · Apr 30, 2024

Davy said:
What's the main purpose of Christ's Church? ANSWER: to preach The Gospel of Jesus Christ to those who have not heard.

Is Christ's Salvation open to everyone that will believe?? YES! except for Satan and his angels that rebelled with him. They are already judged and sentenced to perish.

What about the "tares" then in Christ's parable of the tares of the field, the ones that Jesus said the devil sowed? Is Christ's Salvation open to them also IF they will believe? YES! them also, IF they will believe on Jesus Christ.

Yet that parable of the tares, and the Jude 4 Scripture, and in Romans 9 about the vessels fit for destruction, and the condemnation upon the "brute beasts" of 2 Peter 2:12, and Jude 10, reveals that God has 'ordained'... a people upon this earth to serve Satan. Those are the "tares" Jesus was showing.

Jude 4
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
KJV

That idea, those "... who were before of old ordained to this condemnation...", means God ordained those to work against Christ even before the foundation of this world.

Just as God ordained His elect in Christ before the foundation of the world, per Ephesians 1:4, these "tares" also were pre-ordained to work against Christ as servants of the devil.

Can they be saved? Yes, IF they will repent and believe on Jesus Christ. But the 2 Peter 2:12 and Jude 10 Scripture reveals the "tares" have a propensity to follow the devil, as being in their 'nature'. So I'd say it is very, very difficult to convert the "tares" to Christ, but it is possible, IF they will repent to Jesus, and believe on Him, and be saved!

Have any of you brethren ever heard this about the "tares" taught in your Church? If not, then WHY not? By this parable Jesus gave, it shows you there's a spiritual war that's been going on in this world between the 'seed' that Christ sowed, and the seed ("tares") which the devil sowed.

This means, even in the Church, use the old saying by ex-President Reagan, "trust but verify."

So you believe Christ shed His Blood to save the tares, the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction ?

Taken · Apr 30, 2024

Keraz said:
You refute your own beliefs.

Not true.

The House of Judah consists of just the tribe of Judah and Benjamin, Some Levites and a few from other tribes. But the main group of Israelites are the House of Israel; the ten Northern tribes.
They still remain in exile and scattered around the world. THEY are the peoples who have accepted the Gospel and it is only those peoples who are the true Israelites of God. WE Christians are the ones grafted into the Tree of Life, that is Jesus.
The Jews continue on in their rejection of Jesus and now face their final punishment. Only a Messianic remnant will survive.

The “ISRAELITES” were established by God.
The “TRIBES” were established by God.
The “HOUSES” were establish by Named offspring of Jacob, according to God.
Secularly, a person born of mother who is a Jew (herself born of a mother who was a Jew, distinguished by not being a Gentile),the offspring is a Jew.

Men “changing” (re-FORMING), what God established, in the BIG picture, is irrelevant.

Regardless of What TRIBE, (per-REFORM of men), Descendants of the 12 Tribes being called JEWS….and Gentiles practicing their religion are called Jewish…
Doesn’t much matter.
The TRIBES of Israel and the females offspring are Gods People. They individually, like ANY Person, have the Freewill to Accept or Reject the Lord God.

In Gods own WISDOM, HE blinded the ISRAELITES, for the sake of the GENTILES, to become MADE aware and have opportunity to BECOME MADE included in status WITH the Lord Gods PEOPLE.

In the interim, the First (ISRAELITES) will be Last; and in the completion, the Last (GENTILES) will be First.

Gentiles have been stepping up IN Christ, for. 2,000 years….In the end of Days (as we know them)…God has A Salvation Plan for His People “ISRAEL”, (regardless of man’s reforms, wars, attacks against ISRAELITES, persons and their current tiny man-Established Nation. )

Timtofly · Apr 30, 2024

Davy said:
Well, you obviously missed Christ's EXPLANATION of the parable of the tares of the field that He gave to His disciples, IN PRIVATE. Here it is again...

And EXPLANATION does NOT mean just another parable. The following is Lord Jesus EXPLAINING what His parable means... LITERALLY...

Matt 13:36-43
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and His disciples came unto Him, saying, "Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field."

His disciples didn't understand that parable of the tares either in verses 24-30 when He first gave it. So they asked Him to EXPLAIN it. And He did, with the following...

37 He answered and said unto them, "He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

That above was actually first revealed in Genesis 3:15 about the 2 different 'seeds'. And God said He would put enmity between those two seeds. One is the Seed of the symbolic Woman, the lineage from the man Adam through which Jesus would be born. The other 'seed' represents those ordained for this present world to serve Satan, like his elect. Jude 4 points to these as the "certain men crept in unawares". They represent the "tares" in Jesus' parable.

In Jeremiah 24, God singled out these "tares" also, about the basket of figs that were rotten that Jeremiah saw. They were so rotten they were "evil" he said.

Matth.13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

Since Jesus showed in Rev.20 there will be a period of a "thousand years" that will happen prior to their "lake of fire" destruction, we are to keep that in mind here.

41 The Son of man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

Jesus covers that in the next Matt.25 chapter about the separation between His sheep and the goats.

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Many do not consider that if they are cast to hell, for the future "thousand years", like the "outer darkness", that is where they will be "wailing and gnashing of teeth" (see about those cast to the "outer darkness" per Matt.8:12 and Matt.22:13; and Matt.25:30).

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
KJV

Once the "tares" are finally destroyed in the future "lake of fire" AFTER Christ's "thousand years" reign, per Rev.20, that is when that will be in effect with God's new heavens and a new earth.

You still missed the whole point that Jesus is physically on the earth at the Second Coming. This is before the 144k are even sealed. The 144k are the firstfruits before any other seed is sown. The sheep are not seeds sown. The sheep are judged in front of Jesus personally one sheep at a time. The angels are gathering all these individual humans from across the earth.

The church is not even on the earth at this time.

rebuilder 454 · Apr 30, 2024

Davy said:
What did Lord Jesus say about one being neither hot nor cold? Make up your mind. All I see with your above two statements is you don't really know.

What a STUPID statement that is above!
And all the time I have spent on this Forum trying to teach brethren per Bible Scripture about the two houses of Israel, the HOUSE OF JUDAH and the HOUSE OF ISRAEL, per God's written Word, and all this unbuilt54 can say is that I believe there's no such thing as a Jew???

I'll tell you what unbuilder54 is really afraid of. He's probably Jewish, but is maybe not sure if his ancient ancestors of old Israel were real Israelites of the 'seed', or actually Canaanites that crept in among Judah long ago (Judges 2 & 3; Joshua 9)! Well under Jesus Christ, that don't matter.

But still the FALSE JEWS that Jesus pointed out STILL EXIST TODAY! (Revelation 2:9 and Revelation 3:9, so argue with Jesus over that! since you don't like me revealing this from God's Word!)

False brethren exist today.
Applying your logic says "therefore there is no church"

brightfame52 said:
You promoting racial salvation, denies grace so is apostate

Race has zero to do with being born again.
You somehow have the word "race" living rent free in your mind.
Perplexing and weird.

rebuilder 454 · Apr 30, 2024

Davy said:
Don't try to put up Scripture references that you don't have a clue as to their meaning.

I can freely go to those verses.
Fear is preventing you.
That is why you do not quote them and are actually forbidden to go there.
They do so much to effectively neuter postribbers.
Lol

Timtofly · Apr 30, 2024

brightfame52 said:
No its clearly the Church, you are trusting in the flesh, you salvation by the flesh, ethnicity, thats a denial of Grace

This has nothing to do with salvation by grace through faith. This event takes place after the Second Coming, and the church already removed from the earth. You have these 144k as some symbolic reference to all mankind since Adam. These are humans who are alive at the Second Coming on the earth.

Of course they have physical bodies like you and all alive on the earth. Do you not have a physical body? Can you accept salvation, even though you have a physical body? No one is trusting in the flesh, so that is an outright blatent lie you are spreading. You are the one spreading a false belief in your denial that these are literal humans just like you are, and not mere symbolism like you claim.

brightfame52 · Apr 30, 2024

Timtofly said:
This has nothing to do with salvation by grace through faith. This event takes place after the Second Coming, and the church already removed from the earth. You have these 144k as some symbolic reference to all mankind since Adam. These are humans who are alive at the Second Coming on the earth.

Of course they have physical bodies like you and all alive on the earth. Do you not have a physical body? Can you accept salvation, even though you have a physical body? No one is trusting in the flesh, so that is an outright blatent lie you are spreading. You are the one spreading a false belief in your denial that these are literal humans just like you are, and not mere symbolism like you claim.

It is about Salvation, and the 144000 is the Church, the body of Christ, and dont misrepresent me, I never said anything about the 144 000 symbolizes all mankind, but thy symbolize the Church, since when does the Church denote all mankind ?

Keraz · Apr 30, 2024

Taken said:
Descendants of the 12 Tribes being called JEWS

This is your fundamental error.
The Bible Prophets carefully keep Judah and Israel separate, in over 160 verses.

The real truth is the Jews are of the synagogue of Satan and the Israelites are the Overcomers for God. As is the situation today; the apostate Jewish State if Israel, and the Christian peoples from every tribe, race, nation and language.
Judah and Israel have not yet rejoined; as per Ezekiel 37.

covenantee · Apr 30, 2024

Timtofly said:
The 144k have nothing to do with the past 2 millennia. They are the firstfruits of the Day of the Lord. So all that applies to a future 1,000 years.

They have everything to do with the past four millennia, because they are the Church "throughout all ages, world without end. Amen." Ephesians 3:21

Too bad you've missed it.

covenantee · Apr 30, 2024

Timtofly said:
No, you did not. All the 144k are of Jacob. Same thing as with the 12 disciples. We are not talking about Jews. We are talking about the natural born offspring of Jacob, not the billions of others who have mixed blood, as if you don't think that a son can have a son can have a son, just like in Scripture. The 12 may have been Jews like many posters are Americans, but we are not talking about Adam's offspring. We are talking about Jacob's.

This is an event that has not happened yet. This is not the church, because this event takes place after the Second Coming, and after the church has been removed. These people are still alive on the earth after the Second Coming.

All your interpretation does it strip this event of the actual people being changed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, and applies meaningless thought to the last 6,000 years, even though these people never even existed 6,000 years ago. These people are not symbolic of any belief you may have. There is currently no distinction in the church. These 144k are not about the church. But when you symbolize and apply this event to the church, you contradict John's distinct point that these people are separate, literal humans about to go through the Trumpets and Thunders with Jesus in person on the earth. They are the firstfruits, who have to die, just like those under the alter, had to leave Adam's dead corruptible flesh behind in the dust. These are people on the earth, those under the alter are waiting for.

"they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

The 144k are the firstfruits. Then comes the sheep harvest, and then the wheat harvest. The 144k were souls stripped out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. The sheep are souls stripped out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. The wheat are more Gentiles stripped out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. These people are changed, but not part of the church waiting in heaven. These are the firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom.

People who reject the Day of the Lord, and a thousand year reign of Christ on a throne in a temple in Jerusalem, have to explain away these firstfruits, as pertaining to the last 6,000 years, instead of the Day of the Lord that comes as a thief in the night.

How are the pureblooded "natural born offspring of Jacob" recognized?

Easily. By the profusion of two- and three- headed degenerative mutations resulting from exclusively incestuous inbreeding.

Can be confirmed with a DNA spit kit, which I presume you carry continuously.

Your assertions are beyond risible.

As expected, you cannot begin to understand that God is not a racist.

So leave it for those who can understand.

Taken · Apr 30, 2024

Keraz said:
This is your fundamental error.
The Bible Prophets carefully keep Judah and Israel separate, in over 160 verses.

The real truth is the Jews are of the synagogue of Satan

and the Israelites are the Overcomers for God. As is the situation today; the apostate Jewish State if Israel, and the Christian peoples from every tribe, race, nation and language.
Judah and Israel have not yet rejoined; as per Ezekiel 37.

Your “real truth” is disturbing PUTTING ALL Jews of the synagogue of satan.

It is they who SAY THEY ARE JEWS, (WHO ARE NOT) regarding the Synagogue of satan.

Plenty of JEWS ARE JEWS, and the Synagogue of satan, DOES NOT APPLY TO THEM!

covenantee · Apr 30, 2024

Taken said:
Your “real truth” is disturbing PUTTING ALL Jews of the synagogue of satan.

It is they who SAY THEY ARE JEWS, (WHO ARE NOT) regarding the Synagogue of satan.

Plenty of JEWS ARE JEWS, and the Synagogue of satan, DOES NOT APPLY TO THEM!

Romans 2
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Paul identifies who are and are not Jews.

He declares that those who say they are Jews, but are only circumcised in the flesh; are not Jews at all unless they are also circumcised in the heart.

The former are those who say they are Jews, and are not. Revelation 2:9

They are the synagogue of Satan.

Davy · Apr 30, 2024

brightfame52 said:
So you believe Christ shed His Blood to save the tares, the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction ?

Definitely, yes, IF... they will repent and believe on Jesus Christ. Per God's Word the ONLY ones that have already been judged and sentenced to perish in the future "lake of fire" is Satan and his angels (Matthew 25:41).

Not even Judas Iscariot has been judged yet, and God's Word suggests that he repented and was murdered for it by the Pharisees (Luke 4:29 compared with Acts 1:18).

Acts 1:18
18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
KJV

That kind of death suggests murder.

Taken · Apr 30, 2024

covenantee said:
Romans 2
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Paul identifies who are and are not Jews.

He declares that those who say they are Jews, but are only circumcised in the flesh; are not Jews at all unless they are also circumcised in the heart.

The former are those who say they are Jews, and are not. Revelation 2:9

They are the synagogue of Satan.

Correct…specific Jews, not ALL Jews.

Circumcision of the flesh, was / is performed by men, in the sight of men.

Circumcision of the heart, IS performed by God, without the sight of men’s observance.

God Bless you,
Glory to God,

Taken

Timtofly · Apr 30, 2024

brightfame52 said:
It is about Salvation, and the 144000 is the Church, the body of Christ, and dont misrepresent me, I never said anything about the 144 000 symbolizes all mankind, but thy symbolize the Church, since when does the Church denote all mankind ?

Because all of mankind has needed redemption since Adam. The church included Abel.

You do not see these as literal humans are all, but all mankind throughout history, of course who have been redeemed. That was your point. Mere symbolism.

Timtofly · Apr 30, 2024

covenantee said:
Too bad you've missed it.

Too bad that is all you can post.

Timtofly · Apr 30, 2024

covenantee said:
How are the pureblooded "natural born offspring of Jacob" recognized?

Easily. By the profusion of two- and three- headed degenerative mutations resulting from exclusively incestuous inbreeding.

Can be confirmed with a DNA spit kit, which I presume you carry continuously.

Your assertions are beyond risible.

As expected, you cannot begin to understand that God is not a racist.

So leave it for those who can understand.

Leave the argument for those to whom all they understand is racism?

You all brought it up. Not me.

You keep posting garbage and nonsense to make your point.

covenantee · Apr 30, 2024

Timtofly said:
Leave the argument for those to whom all they understand is racism?

You all brought it up. Not me.

You keep posting garbage and nonsense to make your point.

The only garbage and nonsense is that of a fantasy nonexistent pureblooded "natural born offspring of Jacob".

The 144,000 before God at the end.

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