The most "evident" truth of scripture

Wormwood · Jul 1, 2013

Ive already addressed this passage with you at length. "Believe" is a present participle, not aorist. It does not suggest a one-and-done recognition that guarantees salvation through a moment of cognitive assent. Belief/trust (pistis) here is an ongoing manner of life. Those who are believing...are walking in faith...and presently trusting have passed over from death to life. Eternal life is not a state of being, but a person....Jesus Christ. Jesus said, "I am the resurrection and the life." Eternal life is not a ticket you get punched but a person you come into relationship with. In Christ, we have eternal life and are no longer condemned. If we disown him or turn from him...we are not believing and not in Christ. Such a person does not have Christ and the life he gives. This verse does not apply to those who are not presently believing. Hence the warning to the churches in Revelation to endure and overcome by continuing in the faith.

bytheway · Jul 1, 2013

As usual it's a milk feeding frenzy! Heb. 5:12- 6:1 everyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is unskilled in the word of righteousness. But solid food is for the mature,for those whose faculties have been trained by practice to distinguish good from evil. Therefore let us go on toward perfection, leaving behind the basic teaching about Christ, and not laying again the foundation: repentance from dead works and faith toward God, instruction about baptisms, laying on of hands, resurrection of the dead etc. Lets move on to the greater things.

aspen · Jul 1, 2013

everlasting life is a condition - sort of like being healthy

Wormwood · Jul 1, 2013

bytheway said:
As usual it's a milk feeding frenzy! Heb. 5:12- 6:1 everyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is unskilled in the word of righteousness. But solid food is for the mature,for those whose faculties have been trained by practice to distinguish good from evil. Therefore let us go on toward perfection, leaving behind the basic teaching about Christ, and not laying again the foundation: repentance from dead works and faith toward God, instruction about baptisms, laying on of hands, resurrection of the dead etc. Lets move on to the greater things.

Alright. Lets.

williemac · Jul 1, 2013

Wormwood said:
Ive already addressed this passage with you at length. "Believe" is a present participle, not aorist. It does not suggest a one-and-done recognition that guarantees salvation through a moment of cognitive assent. Belief/trust (pistis) here is an ongoing manner of life. Those who are believing...are walking in faith...and presently trusting have passed over from death to life. Eternal life is not a state of being, but a person....Jesus Christ. Jesus said, "I am the resurrection and the life." Eternal life is not a ticket you get punched but a person you come into relationship with. In Christ, we have eternal life and are no longer condemned. If we disown him or turn from him...we are not believing and not in Christ. Such a person does not have Christ and the life he gives. This verse does not apply to those who are not presently believing. Hence the warning to the churches in Revelation to endure and overcome by continuing in the faith.

Actually, there is a little more to it than that. Paul asked the Galatians if they had received the Spirit by the works of law or by the hearing of faith. (3:5) . As well, we are also told that if anyone is in Christ he is a new creation. We therefore by faith are born again and by faith receive within us the Spirit of God. Faith has a purpose more relevant than mere intellectual assent. It is the means by which we receive from God. But as far as eternal life is, it is a state of being, my friend. It comes from Jesus. He is the author of it and the source of it. We are the recipients of His life within us. So this is not one or the other. It is both. It is both a ticket and a relationship. We are told that He gave us His Spirit as a guarantee of our inheritance. There is an inheritance. It is part and parcel with the relationship we have with God. Lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I keep hearing about this so called warning to remain in the faith or to continue in it. I agree. There has definitely been an ongoing attack against faith. But it is as subtle as it has always been. It does not come in the form of a plea to not believe. Nor does it come in the form of turning people away from Jesus. It comes in the same form that the Galatians experienced. It is called leaven. It is the mixing of works with faith, for justification. Our initial acceptance of the gospel did not happen apart from humility. God gives grace to the humble. Our faith in Him for salvation is humility based. The same temptation that has always plagued creation is that which entices men to place self on the throne. This is the original sin. Lucifer was the first, and he wants followers. One does not deny Christ or oppose God apart from self exaltation. It is also the enemy of faith. Faith exalts God.

Wormwood · Jul 2, 2013

Williemac,

You seem to be limiting my comments unnecessarily in some places while inserting ideas into my writing in others. If you are going against something I said, please provide a quote so I know the precise statement to which you object.

Actually, there is a little more to it than that. Paul asked the Galatians if they had received the Spirit by the works of law or by the hearing of faith. (3:5)

I would not say there is "more to it" but that my comments on the necessity of continuing in the faith include falling into false teaching (such as works righteousness).

Faith has a purpose more relevant than mere intellectual assent. It is the means by which we receive from God.

In no place did I ever say faith was "mere intellectual assent."

But as far as eternal life is, it is a state of being, my friend. It comes from Jesus. He is the author of it and the source of it. We are the recipients of His life within us. So this is not one or the other. It is both. It is both a ticket and a relationship. We are told that He gave us His Spirit as a guarantee of our inheritance. There is an inheritance. It is part and parcel with the relationship we have with God. Lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I am not "throwing the baby out with the bathwater." I am simply saying that everything good we receive from God comes "in Christ." We find our adoption as sons in Christ, our inheritance in Christ, eternal life in Christ, and every other blessing is in Christ. Everything God has made has been made "by Him and for Him." Thus, all we receive we claim by being in Him. Therefore, our relationship is predominant and the "state of being"...ticket of salvation and whatever else comes only in him and through him. Thus, you cannot reject Christ and still receive inheritance in Christ. We cross over from death to life because we embrace his life through connection with him. So I never said it was "one or the other." What I am saying is that salvation is not ultimately an event, it is a person. Mary and Martha were focused on the resurrection day rather than seeing that the "resurrection" was standing right in front of them. Sure, Lazarus was "raised" on a day, but the day only took place because of the person. I fear we have so made Christianity about hoops and events that we consider the relationship as secondary. It is more about "getting saved" and "born again" than it is about continuing and growing in the faith which saves us. Salvation is not a static thing, it is a living person. That is my point. If you don't have the person, you don't have all the blessings, life and inheritance that comes through that person. So, I think it is entirely consistent to believe at one point, cross over from death to life and escape judgment, but then reject Christ and the life and grace he provides. In sum, John 5:24 does not teach "once saved always saved" as you were earlier proposing because salvation is a person in whom we must remain connected to by "believing." Not that we believed one day in the past and all is therefore settled. This is not the picture of belief the Bible gives in my estimation.

There has definitely been an ongoing attack against faith. But it is as subtle as it has always been. It does not come in the form of a plea to not believe. Nor does it come in the form of turning people away from Jesus. It comes in the same form that the Galatians experienced. It is called leaven. It is the mixing of works with faith, for justification. Our initial acceptance of the gospel did not happen apart from humility. God gives grace to the humble. Our faith in Him for salvation is humility based.

I agree the attack of the enemy comes in various forms. My point, however, is that the ultimate goal is always the same...destroy faith. In my opinion, Satan's efforts (and our fleshly desires) are not primarily about making us sinful or proud. They are about demolishing relationship with God that comes through faith. Grace comes through faith. Thus if the enemy wants to keep us in bondage and far from God, then he undermines the faith. That can come by mixing the Gospel with works, persecution, the love of money, hardness that comes through sin or other means. But the aim, in my view, is always the same....destroy the faith. I think this is why Paul, at the end of his life, victoriously proclaimed, "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith!"

williemac · Jul 2, 2013

Wormwood said:
Williemac,

You seem to be limiting my comments unnecessarily in some places while inserting ideas into my writing in others. If you are going against something I said, please provide a quote so I know the precise statement to which you object.

I would not say there is "more to it" but that my comments on the necessity of continuing in the faith include falling into false teaching (such as works righteousness).

In no place did I ever say faith was "mere intellectual assent."

I am not "throwing the baby out with the bathwater." I am simply saying that everything good we receive from God comes "in Christ." We find our adoption as sons in Christ, our inheritance in Christ, eternal life in Christ, and every other blessing is in Christ. Everything God has made has been made "by Him and for Him." Thus, all we receive we claim by being in Him. Therefore, our relationship is predominant and the "state of being"...ticket of salvation and whatever else comes only in him and through him. Thus, you cannot reject Christ and still receive inheritance in Christ. We cross over from death to life because we embrace his life through connection with him. So I never said it was "one or the other." What I am saying is that salvation is not ultimately an event, it is a person. Mary and Martha were focused on the resurrection day rather than seeing that the "resurrection" was standing right in front of them. Sure, Lazarus was "raised" on a day, but the day only took place because of the person. I fear we have so made Christianity about hoops and events that we consider the relationship as secondary. It is more about "getting saved" and "born again" than it is about continuing and growing in the faith which saves us. Salvation is not a static thing, it is a living person. That is my point. If you don't have the person, you don't have all the blessings, life and inheritance that comes through that person. So, I think it is entirely consistent to believe at one point, cross over from death to life and escape judgment, but then reject Christ and the life and grace he provides. In sum, John 5:24 does not teach "once saved always saved" as you were earlier proposing because salvation is a person in whom we must remain connected to by "believing." Not that we believed one day in the past and all is therefore settled. This is not the picture of belief the Bible gives in my estimation.

I agree the attack of the enemy comes in various forms. My point, however, is that the ultimate goal is always the same...destroy faith. In my opinion, Satan's efforts (and our fleshly desires) are not primarily about making us sinful or proud. They are about demolishing relationship with God that comes through faith. Grace comes through faith. Thus if the enemy wants to keep us in bondage and far from God, then he undermines the faith. That can come by mixing the Gospel with works, persecution, the love of money, hardness that comes through sin or other means. But the aim, in my view, is always the same....destroy the faith. I think this is why Paul, at the end of his life, victoriously proclaimed, "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith!"

Good reply. I am glad to see your clarifications. What I have seen from various people here is the suggestion that sin is equal to unbelief, or equivalent to walking away from the faith. They do not say that in those words, but imply it by way of suggesting that sin in itself can bring about God's judgment on us. One of the enemy's strategies is to shake our confidence. One way to accomplish this is to lie to us about our assurance. He knows that sin is a fact of life in many believers, to one degree or another. He uses that against them to take away their joy, peace, and assurance. It is then that many may be weak to the degree that they give up and walk away from God. Not because they have no interest in Him, but because of the guilt and shame that comes about. This is the same shame that caused Adam and Eve to hide from God. In the world, many people are quoted as saying they do not go to church because they know they are not good enough. They are obviously hearing the wrong message. However, if they only knew that this is exactly where God wants us. It is because of this acknowledgment that we become ripe for forgiveness of sin.

However, if it were possible that a sinning brother in Christ comes face to face with the fact that he is still loved, still accepted, still forgiven, still saved, we can sometimes get an intuitive thought. We think that this will fuel his sin, as though it is a license. But counter to this intuition, the reality is that the heart will be healed by this experience of love. My goal is to allow the weak to experience this method as opposed to the threats and warnings that others would rather use. History has proven that the threat of punishment never drew anyone into the 'loving' arms of God. When we know in our heart that we cannot change ourselves, there is nothing left but to hide.

How many brothers and sisters who are in sin are encouraged to come boldly into the throne of grace, sin and all, to find grace to help in time of need?

As you have shared, there is more than one way that one's faith can be attacked. I assume we are on the same page here.

Wormwood · Jul 3, 2013

Williemac,

Amen. I appreciate your thoughts and reply.

HiddenManna · Aug 11, 2013

May I suggest that this is standard practice for the evangelical church. We pick and choose which parts of the bible we will invest in as it suits our dogma and reject those that challenges our understanding of scripture.

As a classic example, even if we do believe the 10 commandments are relevant for us today, we reject the fourth one because it does not fit in with our way of doing things. Not only do we reject it, we invent all sorts of ideas to justify ignoring it.

Another example is the cessationist doctrine that the gifts of the Spirit are no longer relevant because we have the bible as it is easier to believe that, than put yourself on the line and prove the gospel by signs and wonders. As a result, the cessationist doctrine produces lifeless and powerless christianity.

Another example is all the denominations that we have today. We pick and choose the one that suits our interpretation of scripture or we start one because the current church can't accept our understanding of scripture. I believe there are at least 35,000 denominations worldwide.

I agree with this post but would add that we are under the "law of Christ" to love as He loves us. In that love fulfills "all" the law. There is no commandment that is not fulfilled in the Love of God, shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. Now some may not understand how love fulfills "all" but it indeed does. One need only to trust the scripture and walk in Gods Love, and they will comprehend how "all" the law is fulfilled in love. Now I need not to defend how love fulfills all the law, for it is written in absolute terms that it does. But I can help others understand if some have questions about how love fulfills the Sabbath etc..

ezekiel · Sep 5, 2013

the greatest in the kingdom teaches the law and the less dont as it is written as christ said And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments now if you say you dont live by the law then you lie because thru christ you fullfill the law double for we give god glory and honor every day not just once a week for we walk in his spirit even in old times many understood the law and walk in them but some would not show mercy and forgive but would kill or judge. for in the end times the law will come down from mountians a many will say teach us your ways so we may walk in them blessed be the father, son and holy spirit.

Search

Search

The most "evident" truth of scripture

Wormwood

Chaps

bytheway

New Member

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

Wormwood

Chaps

williemac

New Member

Wormwood

Chaps

williemac

New Member

Wormwood

Chaps

HiddenManna

New Member

ezekiel

Member

Similar threads