The Tribulation Isn’t What You Think

The Gospel of Christ · May 27, 2025

The Tribulation Isn’t What You Think — and Jesus Never Taught a Rapture Escape Plan

Scripture mostly talks about “tribulation” (thlipsis) as something believers experience. But Jesus does describe a final period of unparalleled distress — and He tells us exactly how it ends.

The problem? Modern churches have been fed Scofield’s fan fiction, not Christ’s words.

So let’s walk through what the Bible actually says.

1. Tribulation is for believers — not just “the left behind.”

“In the world you will have tribulation (θλῖψιν) — but take heart, I have overcome the world.”
— John 16:33

“We must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.”
— Acts 14:22

Tribulation isn't some Jewish horror flick after the Church "vanishes" — it's the furnace believers have always gone through. It’s been happening since Acts — and it will culminate right before Christ returns.

2. Jesus does mention a great tribulation — but the righteous are still there.

“Then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world... and except those days be shortened, no flesh would be saved.” — Matthew 24:21–22

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days… He shall send His angels… and gather His elect.” — Matthew 24:29–31

So when does Jesus gather His people? AFTER the tribulation — not before.
No secret escape. No early flight. No Kirk Cameron 'Left Behind' Hollywood nonsense.
Left behind” isn’t a threat — it’s a promise. Just ask Noah.

3. “But what about being taken like in Noah’s day?”

People say this like it’s the reward — but Jesus says it’s the judgment.

“As it was in the days of Noah… they were eating and drinking… until the flood came and took them all away.
So shall it be when the Son of Man returns.” — Matthew 24:37–39
(Also Luke 17:26–30)

Look again — who gets taken in Noah’s day?
Not Noah. Not the righteous.
It’s the wicked who are swept away in judgment.

And Jesus says it’ll be just like that again.

The ones “taken” are the ones judged.
The ones “left” are the ones preserved.
Left behind? That’s the blessing. Just like Noah, just like Lot.

That means modern Rapture theology has Christians begging to be swept away in judgment — while calling it their “blessed hope.” That’s not faith. That’s deception — straight from the Pit. They’re under a veil… and cheering for their own destruction as the architects of this deception laugh from the shadows of Hell — watching the Church pray for its own judgment, and call it salvation.

4. Revelation confirms: the saints go through it.

“I saw the souls of those who were beheaded for their witness to Jesus… and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.” — Revelation 20:4

Who are these saints?
Not “tribulation extras.”
They’re the faithful Church — those who endure.
There is ONE resurrection. (John 5:28–29, Daniel 12:2)

5. Daniel backs it up:

“There shall be a time of trouble such as never was… but at that time your people shall be delivered — everyone written in the Book.”
— Daniel 12:1–2

“Many shall be purified and made white and tried.”
— Daniel 12:10

Not beamed up — purified, tried, delivered.
Through fire, not around it.

6. There’s no escape hatch. But there is endurance — and glory.

“Here is the endurance of the saints… those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.”
— Revelation 14:12

“But he who endures to the end will be saved.” — Matthew 24:13

The Satanic Lie: “The Tribulation” is a Jewish-only horror story.
This was invented by John Nelson Darby in the 1800s and stapled into your Bible by Scofield.
They taught the Church is removed before things get rough, and the Jews get one more shot during a special 7-year tribulation.

There’s only one problem:
That’s not what Jesus taught.

Final Truth:
There is a final period of tribulation — a real, global time of distress before Christ returns. But Jesus was clear:

The righteous aren’t removed beforehand — they’re refined.

The wicked are “taken,” not the saints.

The elect are gathered after the tribulation.

There is one resurrection — at Christ’s visible return.

And every believer who endures will shine like the sun in the Kingdom of their Father (Matthew 13:43).

Summary:

"The tribulation" is real — not just future, but already unfolding. It intensifies before Christ returns. But believers go through it — not around it.

The “rapture” happens after the tribulation (Matt 24:29–31).

The ones “taken” in Noah’s day were the wicked — not the saved.
Jesus says it will be the same way again when He returns.

The ones ‘taken’ are the damned. The Rapture, as the misled modern churches teach it, is actually a death sentence disguised as deliverance.

The righteous are left — sealed, rescued, preserved, just like Noah.

So when modern Christians start begging to be “taken”…
they’re literally praying to be swept away in judgment.
That’s not the blessed hope.
That’s spiritual suicide — with Scofield footnotes.

Scofield’s fantasy isn’t in the Bible.

Endure like Noah. Obey like Lot. Shine like the saints.

No one is raptured before it. The righteous are gathered after (Matt 24:29–31).

Saints will suffer, resist the Beast, and be resurrected to reign with Christ. (Rev 20:4)

The whole “pre-trib rapture” thing? Invented in the 1800s. Not Bible. Not Jesus. Not apostolic.

If anyone tells you we’ll be “raptured out” before things get hard, just ask:
“Where’s the verse that says that?”
(Spoiler: there isn’t one.)

The Cross wasn’t an escape plan — it was a war path.
Jesus doesn’t rapture cowards.
He refines warriors.

Not one apostle taught a pre-tribulation rapture.
Not one early Church father believed Christians would disappear before the time of trial.
There is zero historical record of any secret escape doctrine in the first 1800 years of Christianity.

Paul didn’t teach it.
Peter didn’t teach it.
John — the one who saw Revelation — didn’t teach it.

Irenaeus didn’t preach it.
Polycarp didn’t preach it.
Ignatius didn’t preach it.

Jesus didn’t teach it.

So where did it come from?

John Nelson Darby, 1830s.
Scofield Bible, 1909.
Then Hollywood — and Satan’s global elite minions — ran with it.
They sold Christians a false escape hatch — and called it “the Blessed Hope.”

The real Church never believed in a “left behind” evacuation plan.
That idea didn’t come from the Bible.

So ask yourself:
If the apostles didn’t preach it…
If the early Church never taught it…
If Jesus never mentioned it…

Then who did?

Because deception this deep doesn’t come from ignorance — it comes from below.

It’s so twisted, so dark, so psychotic,
it could only come from the pit itself.

Like an evil man sweetly coaxing a group of children
to dance into a barn full of starving lions —
and calling it “blessed hope".

What they’ve done to the Church since 1909 is so twisted,
so diabolical,
it couldn’t have come from man.

This deception bears the fingerprints of the Dragon himself.
Only the enemy of Christ could orchestrate something so brilliant,
so blasphemous —
and sell it as hope.

ScottA · May 27, 2025

The Gospel of Christ said:
The Tribulation Isn’t What You Think — and Jesus Never Taught a Rapture Escape Plan

Scripture mostly talks about “tribulation” (thlipsis) as something believers experience. But Jesus does describe a final period of unparalleled distress — and He tells us exactly how it ends.

The problem? Modern churches have been fed Scofield’s fan fiction, not Christ’s words.

So let’s walk through what the Bible actually says.

1. Tribulation is for believers — not just “the left behind.”

“In the world you will have tribulation (θλῖψιν) — but take heart, I have overcome the world.”
— John 16:33

“We must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.”
— Acts 14:22

Tribulation isn't some Jewish horror flick after the Church "vanishes" — it's the furnace believers have always gone through. It’s been happening since Acts — and it will culminate right before Christ returns.

2. Jesus does mention a great tribulation — but the righteous are still there.

“Then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world... and except those days be shortened, no flesh would be saved.” — Matthew 24:21–22

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days… He shall send His angels… and gather His elect.” — Matthew 24:29–31

So when does Jesus gather His people? AFTER the tribulation — not before.
No secret escape. No early flight. No Kirk Cameron 'Left Behind' Hollywood nonsense.
Left behind” isn’t a threat — it’s a promise. Just ask Noah.

3. “But what about being taken like in Noah’s day?”

People say this like it’s the reward — but Jesus says it’s the judgment.

“As it was in the days of Noah… they were eating and drinking… until the flood came and took them all away.
So shall it be when the Son of Man returns.” — Matthew 24:37–39
(Also Luke 17:26–30)

Look again — who gets taken in Noah’s day?
Not Noah. Not the righteous.
It’s the wicked who are swept away in judgment.

And Jesus says it’ll be just like that again.

The ones “taken” are the ones judged.
The ones “left” are the ones preserved.
Left behind? That’s the blessing. Just like Noah, just like Lot.

That means modern Rapture theology has Christians begging to be swept away in judgment — while calling it their “blessed hope.” That’s not faith. That’s deception — straight from the Pit. They’re under a veil… and cheering for their own destruction as the architects of this deception laugh from the shadows of Hell — watching the Church pray for its own judgment, and call it salvation.

4. Revelation confirms: the saints go through it.

“I saw the souls of those who were beheaded for their witness to Jesus… and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.” — Revelation 20:4

Who are these saints?
Not “tribulation extras.”
They’re the faithful Church — those who endure.
There is ONE resurrection. (John 5:28–29, Daniel 12:2)

5. Daniel backs it up:

“There shall be a time of trouble such as never was… but at that time your people shall be delivered — everyone written in the Book.”
— Daniel 12:1–2

“Many shall be purified and made white and tried.”
— Daniel 12:10

Not beamed up — purified, tried, delivered.
Through fire, not around it.

6. There’s no escape hatch. But there is endurance — and glory.

“Here is the endurance of the saints… those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.”
— Revelation 14:12

“But he who endures to the end will be saved.” — Matthew 24:13

The Satanic Lie: “The Tribulation” is a Jewish-only horror story.
This was invented by John Nelson Darby in the 1800s and stapled into your Bible by Scofield.
They taught the Church is removed before things get rough, and the Jews get one more shot during a special 7-year tribulation.

There’s only one problem:
That’s not what Jesus taught.

Final Truth:
There is a final period of tribulation — a real, global time of distress before Christ returns. But Jesus was clear:

The righteous aren’t removed beforehand — they’re refined.

The wicked are “taken,” not the saints.

The elect are gathered after the tribulation.

There is one resurrection — at Christ’s visible return.

And every believer who endures will shine like the sun in the Kingdom of their Father (Matthew 13:43).

Summary:

"The tribulation" is real — not just future, but already unfolding. It intensifies before Christ returns. But believers go through it — not around it.

The “rapture” happens after the tribulation (Matt 24:29–31).

The ones “taken” in Noah’s day were the wicked — not the saved.
Jesus says it will be the same way again when He returns.

The ones ‘taken’ are the damned. The Rapture, as the misled modern churches teach it, is actually a death sentence disguised as deliverance.

The righteous are left — sealed, rescued, preserved, just like Noah.

So when modern Christians start begging to be “taken”…
they’re literally praying to be swept away in judgment.
That’s not the blessed hope.
That’s spiritual suicide — with Scofield footnotes.

Scofield’s fantasy isn’t in the Bible.

Endure like Noah. Obey like Lot. Shine like the saints.

No one is raptured before it. The righteous are gathered after (Matt 24:29–31).

Saints will suffer, resist the Beast, and be resurrected to reign with Christ. (Rev 20:4)

The whole “pre-trib rapture” thing? Invented in the 1800s. Not Bible. Not Jesus. Not apostolic.

If anyone tells you we’ll be “raptured out” before things get hard, just ask:
“Where’s the verse that says that?”
(Spoiler: there isn’t one.)

The Cross wasn’t an escape plan — it was a war path.
Jesus doesn’t rapture cowards.
He refines warriors.

Not one apostle taught a pre-tribulation rapture.
Not one early Church father believed Christians would disappear before the time of trial.
There is zero historical record of any secret escape doctrine in the first 1800 years of Christianity.

Paul didn’t teach it.
Peter didn’t teach it.
John — the one who saw Revelation — didn’t teach it.

Irenaeus didn’t preach it.
Polycarp didn’t preach it.
Ignatius didn’t preach it.

Jesus didn’t teach it.

So where did it come from?

John Nelson Darby, 1830s.
Scofield Bible, 1909.
Then Hollywood — and Satan’s global elite minions — ran with it.
They sold Christians a false escape hatch — and called it “the Blessed Hope.”

The real Church never believed in a “left behind” evacuation plan.
That idea didn’t come from the Bible.

So ask yourself:
If the apostles didn’t preach it…
If the early Church never taught it…
If Jesus never mentioned it…

Then who did?

Because deception this deep doesn’t come from ignorance — it comes from below.

It is right to say that "The Tribulation" (the great tribulation) is not what you think--and yes, it has been wrongly understood and taught.

But the truth need not be searched for, but is answered in one simple question:

As tribulations go, which is greater than "all" tribulation placed upon Christ?

None--there is no greater tribulation. Meaning: that is the great tribulation spoken of, and yet so misunderstood. And yes, that great tribulation is made manifest within His body, the church.

FaithWillDo · Jun 4, 2025

The Gospel of Christ said:
The Tribulation Isn’t What You Think — and Jesus Never Taught a Rapture Escape Plan

Scripture mostly talks about “tribulation” (thlipsis) as something believers experience. But Jesus does describe a final period of unparalleled distress — and He tells us exactly how it ends.

The problem? Modern churches have been fed Scofield’s fan fiction, not Christ’s words.

So let’s walk through what the Bible actually says.

1. Tribulation is for believers — not just “the left behind.”

“In the world you will have tribulation (θλῖψιν) — but take heart, I have overcome the world.”
— John 16:33

“We must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.”
— Acts 14:22

Tribulation isn't some Jewish horror flick after the Church "vanishes" — it's the furnace believers have always gone through. It’s been happening since Acts — and it will culminate right before Christ returns.

2. Jesus does mention a great tribulation — but the righteous are still there.

“Then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world... and except those days be shortened, no flesh would be saved.” — Matthew 24:21–22

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days… He shall send His angels… and gather His elect.” — Matthew 24:29–31

So when does Jesus gather His people? AFTER the tribulation — not before.
No secret escape. No early flight. No Kirk Cameron 'Left Behind' Hollywood nonsense.
Left behind” isn’t a threat — it’s a promise. Just ask Noah.

3. “But what about being taken like in Noah’s day?”

People say this like it’s the reward — but Jesus says it’s the judgment.

“As it was in the days of Noah… they were eating and drinking… until the flood came and took them all away.
So shall it be when the Son of Man returns.” — Matthew 24:37–39
(Also Luke 17:26–30)

Look again — who gets taken in Noah’s day?
Not Noah. Not the righteous.
It’s the wicked who are swept away in judgment.

And Jesus says it’ll be just like that again.

The ones “taken” are the ones judged.
The ones “left” are the ones preserved.
Left behind? That’s the blessing. Just like Noah, just like Lot.

That means modern Rapture theology has Christians begging to be swept away in judgment — while calling it their “blessed hope.” That’s not faith. That’s deception — straight from the Pit. They’re under a veil… and cheering for their own destruction as the architects of this deception laugh from the shadows of Hell — watching the Church pray for its own judgment, and call it salvation.

4. Revelation confirms: the saints go through it.

“I saw the souls of those who were beheaded for their witness to Jesus… and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.” — Revelation 20:4

Dear The Gospel of Christ,
I agree that the rapture is a completely false doctrine and I agree with some of your comments. However, you are still missing the truth of what Jesus was actually teaching in Matthew chapter 24.

The teachings of Matthew 24 and most of the book of Revelation teach the pathway to salvation that Christ causes His Elect to travel to be converted. The pathway is made up of spiritual events that happen within the Elect. The events are not one-time outward world events that happen only at the end of this literal age. They are reoccurring spiritual events that happen within each Elect person before they die.

Paul says that the end of the ages come upon the Elect before they die.

1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as types, and have been written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come.

Why does Paul say this? Because the "end" comes upon an Elect person when they are converted.

Consider what the book of Revelation says below:

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for THE TIME IS AT HAND.

Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

The time for the fulfillment of the prophecies taught in the book of Revelation were "at hand" when John received the vision. In other words, they "come quickly" to the Elect before they die.

To be blessed, a person must "keep the sayings" of the prophecy. Those sayings include falling away, becoming apostate with the indwelling spirit of anti-Christ (Rev 13). When a believer is indwelt with the spirit of anti-Christ, they are experiencing their time of great tribulation. But after Christ comes to the Elect person a second time and pours out the Latter Rain of the Spirit (the baptism), their spiritual blindness will be healed. With their vision healed, the fallen away Elect believer will see the Abomination of Desolation (Mat 24:15) that previously occurred with themselves (God's Temple) when the spirit of anti-Christ indwelt them. Judas is a "type" for a fallen away apostate believer. If a believer has not seen the Abomination of Desolation, they are not converted.

Since the death of Paul, all the babes in the church have been indwelt with the spirit of anti-Christ. Paul calls this person a "man of sin" and a "minister of Satan". No babe (Early Rain of the Spirit only) can avoid this happening to them. For this reason, when Christ returns to the Elect (their days as a man of sin are shortened), He will bring judgment to the man of sin within the Elect person. The man of sin is the one who is "taken" from within the believer (Mat 24:37-41). This will leave only the newly born child of God. This event is a person's moment of conversion.

I have written a great deal about what end-time prophecy actually teaches if you care to know more.

Joe

Taken · Jun 5, 2025

The Gospel of Christ said:
The Tribulation Isn’t What You Think — and Jesus Never Taught a Rapture Escape Plan

Scripture mostly talks about “tribulation” (thlipsis) as something believers experience. But Jesus does describe a final period of unparalleled distress — and He tells us exactly how it ends.

The problem? Modern churches have been fed Scofield’s fan fiction, not Christ’s words.

So let’s walk through what the Bible actually says.

1. Tribulation is for believers — not just “the left behind.”

“In the world you will have tribulation (θλῖψιν) — but take heart, I have overcome the world.”
— John 16:33

“We must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.”
— Acts 14:22

Tribulation isn't some Jewish horror flick after the Church "vanishes" — it's the furnace believers have always gone through. It’s been happening since Acts — and it will culminate right before Christ returns.

2. Jesus does mention a great tribulation — but the righteous are still there.

“Then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world... and except those days be shortened, no flesh would be saved.” — Matthew 24:21–22

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days… He shall send His angels… and gather His elect.” — Matthew 24:29–31

So when does Jesus gather His people? AFTER the tribulation — not before.
No secret escape. No early flight. No Kirk Cameron 'Left Behind' Hollywood nonsense.
Left behind” isn’t a threat — it’s a promise. Just ask Noah.

3. “But what about being taken like in Noah’s day?”

People say this like it’s the reward — but Jesus says it’s the judgment.

“As it was in the days of Noah… they were eating and drinking… until the flood came and took them all away.
So shall it be when the Son of Man returns.” — Matthew 24:37–39
(Also Luke 17:26–30)

Look again — who gets taken in Noah’s day?
Not Noah. Not the righteous.
It’s the wicked who are swept away in judgment.

And Jesus says it’ll be just like that again.

The ones “taken” are the ones judged.
The ones “left” are the ones preserved.
Left behind? That’s the blessing. Just like Noah, just like Lot.

That means modern Rapture theology has Christians begging to be swept away in judgment — while calling it their “blessed hope.” That’s not faith. That’s deception — straight from the Pit. They’re under a veil… and cheering for their own destruction as the architects of this deception laugh from the shadows of Hell — watching the Church pray for its own judgment, and call it salvation.

4. Revelation confirms: the saints go through it.

“I saw the souls of those who were beheaded for their witness to Jesus… and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.” — Revelation 20:4

Who are these saints?
Not “tribulation extras.”
They’re the faithful Church — those who endure.
There is ONE resurrection. (John 5:28–29, Daniel 12:2)

5. Daniel backs it up:

“There shall be a time of trouble such as never was… but at that time your people shall be delivered — everyone written in the Book.”
— Daniel 12:1–2

“Many shall be purified and made white and tried.”
— Daniel 12:10

Not beamed up — purified, tried, delivered.
Through fire, not around it.

6. There’s no escape hatch. But there is endurance — and glory.

“Here is the endurance of the saints… those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.”
— Revelation 14:12

“But he who endures to the end will be saved.” — Matthew 24:13

The Satanic Lie: “The Tribulation” is a Jewish-only horror story.
This was invented by John Nelson Darby in the 1800s and stapled into your Bible by Scofield.
They taught the Church is removed before things get rough, and the Jews get one more shot during a special 7-year tribulation.

There’s only one problem:
That’s not what Jesus taught.

Final Truth:
There is a final period of tribulation — a real, global time of distress before Christ returns. But Jesus was clear:

The righteous aren’t removed beforehand — they’re refined.

The wicked are “taken,” not the saints.

The elect are gathered after the tribulation.

There is one resurrection — at Christ’s visible return.

And every believer who endures will shine like the sun in the Kingdom of their Father (Matthew 13:43).

Summary:

"The tribulation" is real — not just future, but already unfolding. It intensifies before Christ returns. But believers go through it — not around it.

The “rapture” happens after the tribulation (Matt 24:29–31).

The ones “taken” in Noah’s day were the wicked — not the saved.
Jesus says it will be the same way again when He returns.

The ones ‘taken’ are the damned. The Rapture, as the misled modern churches teach it, is actually a death sentence disguised as deliverance.

The righteous are left — sealed, rescued, preserved, just like Noah.

So when modern Christians start begging to be “taken”…
they’re literally praying to be swept away in judgment.
That’s not the blessed hope.
That’s spiritual suicide — with Scofield footnotes.

Scofield’s fantasy isn’t in the Bible.

Endure like Noah. Obey like Lot. Shine like the saints.

No one is raptured before it. The righteous are gathered after (Matt 24:29–31).

Saints will suffer, resist the Beast, and be resurrected to reign with Christ. (Rev 20:4)

The whole “pre-trib rapture” thing? Invented in the 1800s. Not Bible. Not Jesus. Not apostolic.

If anyone tells you we’ll be “raptured out” before things get hard, just ask:
“Where’s the verse that says that?”
(Spoiler: there isn’t one.)

The Cross wasn’t an escape plan — it was a war path.
Jesus doesn’t rapture cowards.
He refines warriors.

Not one apostle taught a pre-tribulation rapture.
Not one early Church father believed Christians would disappear before the time of trial.
There is zero historical record of any secret escape doctrine in the first 1800 years of Christianity.

Paul didn’t teach it.
Peter didn’t teach it.
John — the one who saw Revelation — didn’t teach it.

Irenaeus didn’t preach it.
Polycarp didn’t preach it.
Ignatius didn’t preach it.

Jesus didn’t teach it.

So where did it come from?

John Nelson Darby, 1830s.
Scofield Bible, 1909.
Then Hollywood — and Satan’s global elite minions — ran with it.
They sold Christians a false escape hatch — and called it “the Blessed Hope.”

The real Church never believed in a “left behind” evacuation plan.
That idea didn’t come from the Bible.

So ask yourself:
If the apostles didn’t preach it…
If the early Church never taught it…
If Jesus never mentioned it…

Then who did?

Because deception this deep doesn’t come from ignorance — it comes from below.

It’s so twisted, so dark, so psychotic,
it could only come from the pit itself.

Like an evil man sweetly coaxing a group of children
to dance into a barn full of starving lions —
and calling it “blessed hope".

What they’ve done to the Church since 1909 is so twisted,
so diabolical,
it couldn’t have come from man.

This deception bears the fingerprints of the Dragon himself.
Only the enemy of Christ could orchestrate something so brilliant,
so blasphemous —
and sell it as hope.

Taken · Jun 5, 2025

1 Cor 10:
[13] There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but God will with the temptation also make a WAY to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Perhaps… YOU “missed Jesus Teaching”…

John 14:
[6] Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Perhaps… YOU “missed the WAY is a man Freely agreeing TO Be :crucified WITH Jesus Body.
And such men;
“Accounted IN Gods Books, particularly THE LAMBS BOOK of LIFE” Having Freely Given their BODY unto Death For “THEIR Heartful Commitment To:
The Lord God Almighty…
THUS “THEY” no longer Subject To Gods Tribulations and Wrath SENT down from Heaven Upon the Whole World (Earth and the Inhabitants upon the face of the Whole Earth)

Perhaps… YOU “missed” …
The Living Inhabitants Upon the Face of the Earth…(During Gods Tribulations and Wrath)…
Shall Suffer Gods Judgements of Tribulations and Wrath… UNTIL the Day “THEY” Freely “Confess Their True Heartful Belief AND Willingly give their Body unto Physical Death “For” Their True Heartful Belief”…

You apparently HAVE missed…
A “Relationship” REQUIRES a “Commitment”
Of BOTH parties “entering into a relationship”

God has “Offered mankind “His” Willingness TO Have A relationship with men.”

There IS no “relationship Established” Without a mans own “commitment”!!!

A man Hearing Gods Word:
A man Believing Gods Word:
A man Participating in an organized Manmade Church Organization:
A man Offering a helping hand to others:
A man Getting a tax write off for Charity donations:
A man compelling contributions through Theft to Give help to others:
A man “appearing” Godly, to the eyes of other men…
A man baptizing another in Water…without the others consent…
Blah, blah, blah…
Does NOT constitute or Reveal A man HAS Freely Called ON the Lords Name and MADE a Committment “OF” Heartfull Belief “OF Him TO Him” AND freely Given his Body “UNTO” Death, WITH Christ the Lord Jesus’ Body”.
Which “IS” expressly Gods “WAY”
To Escape Gods Tribulations and Wrath (to be) Sent down from Heaven Upon the whole face of the Earth and it’s Inhabitants. [/U]

Nothing New…
Gods Tribulations and Wrath…Have ONCE Before Been Sent down from Heaven…and all inhabitants UPON the Face of the Earth… suffered PHYSICAL Death!!

Only 8 persons of man-KIND and an express number of KINDS of animals…
Escaped the Tribulations AND wrath of God…
BY being lifted Up Above the Face of the Earth.

YOU CAN … not believe Gods Teaching.
YOU CAN … preach AGAINST Gods Word.
YOU Shall … be Held accountable and Subject to the Judgements thereof.

Ecc. 1:
[9] The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

Gen 6:
[7] And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Gen 7:
[17] And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.

1 Thes 4:
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

IN the Ark… IN Christ
Nothing new, not a mystery…
Were and Shall Be Lifted Up above the Face of the Earth…During Gods Tribulations and Wrath Upon the face of the Earth.

Glory to God,
Taken

FaithWillDo · Jun 5, 2025

Taken said:
1 Cor 10:
[13] There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but God will with the temptation also make a WAY to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Perhaps… YOU “missed Jesus Teaching”…

John 14:
[6] Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Perhaps… YOU “missed the WAY is a man Freely agreeing TO Be :crucified WITH Jesus Body.
And such men;
“Accounted IN Gods Books, particularly THE LAMBS BOOK of LIFE” Having Freely Given their BODY unto Death For “THEIR Heartful Commitment To:
The Lord God Almighty…
THUS “THEY” no longer Subject To Gods Tribulations and Wrath SENT down from Heaven Upon the Whole World (Earth and the Inhabitants upon the face of the Whole Earth)

Perhaps… YOU “missed” …
The Living Inhabitants Upon the Face of the Earth…(During Gods Tribulations and Wrath)…
Shall Suffer Gods Judgements of Tribulations and Wrath… UNTIL the Day “THEY” Freely “Confess Their True Heartful Belief AND Willingly give their Body unto Physical Death “For” Their True Heartful Belief”…

You apparently HAVE missed…
A “Relationship” REQUIRES a “Commitment”
Of BOTH parties “entering into a relationship”

God has “Offered mankind “His” Willingness TO Have A relationship with men.”

There IS no “relationship Established” Without a mans own “commitment”!!!

A man Hearing Gods Word:
A man Believing Gods Word:
A man Participating in an organized Manmade Church Organization:
A man Offering a helping hand to others:
A man Getting a tax write off for Charity donations:
A man compelling contributions through Theft to Give help to others:
A man “appearing” Godly, to the eyes of other men…
A man baptizing another in Water…without the others consent…
Blah, blah, blah…
Does NOT constitute or Reveal A man HAS Freely Called ON the Lords Name and MADE a Committment “OF” Heartfull Belief “OF Him TO Him” AND freely Give his Body “UNTO” Death, WITH Christ the Lord Jesus’ Body”.
Which “IS” expressly Gods “WAY”
To Escape Gods Tribulations and Wrath (to be) Sent down from Heaven Upon the whole face of the Earth and it’s Inhabitants. [/U]

Nothing New…
Gods Tribulations and Wrath…Have ONCE Before Been Sent down from Heaven…and all inhabitants UPON the Face of the Earth… suffered PHYSICAL Death!!

Only 8 persons of man-KIND and an express number of KINDS of animals…
Escaped the Tribulations AND wrath of God…
BY being lifted Up Above the Face of the Earth.

YOU CAN … not believe Gods Teaching.
YOU CAN … preach AGAINST Gods Word.
YOU Shall … be Held accountable and Subject to the Judgements thereof.

Ecc. 1:
[9] The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

Gen 6:
[7] And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Gen 7:
[17] And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.

1 Thes 4:
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

IN the Ark… IN Christ
Nothing new, not a mystery…
We’re and Shall Be Lifted Up above the Face of the Earth…During Gods Tribulations and Wrath Upon the face of the Earth.

Glory to God,
Taken

Dear Taken,
The gospel you are teaching is a works based gospel whose foundation is the false Doctrine of Free Will. Only God the Father is sovereign and has a free will. When you claim a free will ability for yourself, you are elevating yourself to be like God.

2Thes 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first (becoming apostate by the indwelling spirit of anti-Christ), and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God (the believer, 1Cor 3:16-17), shewing himself that he is God (free will/sovereign).

The false gospel that you teach is the same "another gospel" that Paul warned would be coming into the church after his death. It can only clothe a person in filthy rags.

2Cor 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus (Satan), whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit (spirit of anti-Christ), which ye have not received, or another gospel (based on works), which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Don't you know that salvation is by "promise" and not by the works of man under the law?

Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Because salvation is by promise, it is a free gift..

Under the New Covenant, Christ will do 100% of the work of saving us. He saves us by changing us from "within" by giving us both the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit. After He gives us the gift of the Spirit, our hearts and minds will be changed. Only then can a person confess that Jesus is Lord. Mankind (in their created state) has no ability of their own to submit to Christ.

Your teachings ignore these scriptures below:

Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

To save a person, Christ must come to them and freely give them the Spirit. He does so without their asking for it and without their permission. After He gives them this free gift, they can no longer reject Christ. Faith in Christ and accepting Him as Lord happens no other way.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

As for your belief in the false teaching of the rapture, the one who is "taken" is the child of the devil. He is taken and cast into the Lake of Fire for destruction.

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Why would you want a member name that represents the child of the devil?

Joe

Taken · Jun 6, 2025

FaithWillDo said:
Dear Taken,
The gospel you are teaching is a works based gospel whose foundation is the false Doctrine of Free Will. Only God the Father is sovereign and has a free will. When you claim a free will ability for yourself, you are elevating yourself to be like God.

No.
A study of Genesis… should have Revealed to You, from the Creation of manKIND… manKind Has FREEWILL…
Pick, Choose, Do as they Freely Choose.

Why are Kinds of Animals Named what “they Are”?
Because Adam was told to Choose WHAT to name and call them.

Why did Adam Eat of the Fruit of the Tree God expressly Told Adam to Not Eat?
Because Adam exercised ”HIS” FREEWILL and ATE the fruit of the Tree, God expressly Told Adam to NOT eat of THAT Tree.

Every time “YOU” decide to Speak, Post your words on this forum, Buy an item, Sell an Item…You are “Exercising” your FREEWILL To pick, choose as YOU freely Choose.

There “ARE” the Works…”OF” God.
There “ARE” the Works… “OF” men.

God DOES… His Works, as He Chooses.
Men DO.. Their Works, as men Choose.

No, I do Not advocate OR speak of “WORKS OF Men” which gains or keeps a mans gift of Salvation.

There “IS” ONE “Works….”OF God”…that men CAN “Freely Choose “TO DO”…(or not).

John 6:
[28] Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

[29] Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.[/U]

A man … WHO Believes on Him whom God has Sent… is a man Doing the Works “OF” God.

A man… doing the Works of man, is a man WHO is talking , preaching, buying, selling, accusing, praising The Lord God, farming, partying, dancing, etc. etc. is DOING “his own FREEWILL choosing” to do those things…
Which neither GAINS or KEEPS his offered or possessed Gift OF Salvation.

God bless you.

Glory to God,
Taken

FaithWillDo · Jun 6, 2025

Taken said:
No.
A study of Genesis… should have Revealed to You, from the Creation of manKIND… manKind Has FREEWILL…
Pick, Choose, Do as they Freely Choose.

Why are Kinds of Animals Named what “they Are”?
Because Adam was told to Choose WHAT to name and call them.

Why did Adam Eat of the Fruit of the Tree God expressly Told Adam to Not Eat?
Because Adam exercised ”HIS” FREEWILL and ATE the fruit of the Tree, God expressly Told Adam to NOT esth of THAT Tree.

Every time “YOU” decide to Speak, Post your words on this forum, Buy an item, Sell an Item…You are “Exercising” your FREEWILL To pick, choose as YOU freely Choose.

There “ARE” the Works…”OF” God.
There “ARE” the Works… “OF” men.

God DOES… His Works, as He Chooses.
Men DO.. Their Works, as men Choose.

No, I do Not advocate OR speak of “WORKS OF Men” which gains or keeps a mans gift of Salvation.

There “IS” ONE “Works….”OF God”…that men CAN “Freely Choose “TO DO”…(or not).

John 6:
[28] Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

[29] Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.[/U]

A man … WHO Believes on Him whom God has Sent… is a man Doing the Works “OF” God.

A man… doing the Works of man, is a man WHO is talking , preaching, buying, selling, accusing, praising The Lord God, farming, partying, dancing, etc. etc. is DOING “his own FREEWILL choosing” to do those things…
Which neither GAINS or KEEPS his offered or possessed Gift OF Salvation.

God bless you.

Glory to God,
Taken

Dear Taken,
There are zero scriptures that state mankind has a free will and there are many scriptures that teach just the opposite. Even a person's faith comes from God and not from within themselves.

Look at what Christ said to Peter:

Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

For a person to know that Jesus is the Christ, it must be revealed to them from heaven.

So the question now is "what does God do to reveal that truth to a person"?

Here is that answer:

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man (by the Early Rain of the Spirit), and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

When Christ is ready for a person to have faith in Him, Christ will come to them without their asking and without their permission and freely give them a small measure of the Spirit (the Early Rain). With even just a small measure of the Spirit, a person will make a confession of faith when presented the Gospel. It is in this way that Christ calls a person to be a saint. But they are not a saint yet - they must wait on the Lord to return with the Latter Rain and judgment in order for them to become a saint (converted).

James says for a person to be ready to be harvested into the Kingdom of Heaven (to be converted), it requires both the Early and Latter Rains:

James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the farmer waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receives the EARLY and LATTER RAIN. 8 Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh (not a far off event if the person is Elect)

As Paul travelled the Damascus Road on his way to persecute Christians, Christ came to Paul and gave him the Early Rain. Paul did not ask for the Spirit nor did Christ ask Paul if he wanted to receive it. Paul did not have any ability to receive or to reject the Spirit - it was simply given to him because Christ chose to give it to him.

Christ's "will" was for Paul to have the Spirit and since Christ's "will" rules supreme over mankind, Paul received the Spirit.

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Scripture says that Paul's conversion is the pattern whereby all who believe after him will be saved (1Tim 1:16). It has to happen this way because mankind in their created state hates God and His ways. To overcome this spiritual flaw in mankind, Christ will freely come to all mankind someday and give them the Spirit.

In this age, Christ is only giving the Spirit (both the Early & Latter Rains) to the Elect who were chosen for an early salvation. No one else will be saved at this time. The free will ability that you believe mankind has cannot overcome mankind's carnal mind and spiritual blindness. For this reason, Christ must and will act first to save a person. After He gives the Spirit to a person, they can "no longer call Jesus accursed". For this reason, it is a certainty that Christ will save all mankind, starting with the Elect in this age and then the balance of mankind in the final age (the Lake of Fire age).

When you claim that mankind must make their own choice to accept Christ or to "receive" the gift of the Spirit, you are adding a person's works to the salvation formula. But salvation under the New Covenant is by "promise" and requires nothing from mankind. Christ is the one who will change a person's heart so that the only thing they will do is to accept Him as their Lord.

When you believe that you did something to earn/receive your salvation, it results in you believing that you are smarter, wiser or just not as evil as those who continue to reject Christ. This belief of yours is filthy rags and cannot save you. Because the Early Rain of the Spirit leaves all babes in Christ in this self-righteous condition, Christ must come again (the second coming of Christ) to the person and pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit.

The Latter Rain is the baptism of the Spirit and is what Peter received on the Day of Pentecost and what Paul received three days later in Damascus. The time in between receiving the Early Rain and the Latter Rain is a time of drought and great tribulation. Scripture teaches that "many" will be given the Early Rain but only a "few" are chosen to be given the Latter Rain.

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

The apostate churches of this world are made up of believers (apostate babes) who have only been given the Early Rain. They all believe that they must contribute at least one work to earn/receive their salvation. For that reason though, they have fallen from grace. No babe can avoid falling away. For that reason, Christ must return and give them the Latter Rain if they are going to be saved before they die. In this age, only the Elect will be blessed to have Christ return to them. Because of this, Christ comes "quickly" to them and their days as a man of sin are shortened. After their spiritual blindness is healed by the Latter Rain, they will see the Abomination of Desolation that previously occurred within themselves (God's Temple). Unless a believer sees the Abomination of Desolation, they are not saved but are still under the deceptions of Satan.

One other point: When Christ is ready for an Elect apostate babe to be converted, He will cause them to pray for understanding. After they do, Christ will come and pour out the Latter Rain.

1Sam 12:17 Is it not wheat harvest to day? (day of salvation/conversion) I WILL CALL UNTO THE LORD, and he shall send thunder and RAIN (Latter Rain); that ye may perceive and see (spiritual blindness healed) that your wickedness is great (have become apostate/man of sin), which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king.

Jer 33:3 ‘Call to Me, and I will answer you, and show you great and mighty things, which you do not know.’

Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit (the Latter Rain/baptism) to them that ask him?

Paul's conversion testimony also shows him praying just before he was converted:

11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth.

Joe

Taken · Jun 6, 2025

FaithWillDo said:
Dear Taken,
There are zero scriptures that state mankind has a free will

Forbare- “refrain FROM doing or using something”

Doing “or” Not Doing “IS” man exercising “his own WILL”.

The Lord GOD Himself knows manKIND freely exercises “his OWN WILL” to DO THIS or NOT DO THAT.

Ezek. 3:
[11b] Thus saith the Lord GOD; whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear.[/B]

FaithWillDo said:
and there are many scriptures that teach just the opposite. Even a person's faith comes from God and not from within themselves.

Faith is a Gift FROM God, TO a man, FOR a man Hearing Gods Word.

And? Whether or Not a man Freely Chooses to Hear Gods Word???
IS the man Freely exercising “his own Will”.

FaithWillDo said:
Look at what Christ said to Peter:

Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

For a person to know that Jesus is the Christ, it must be revealed to them from heaven.

Hearing the Word of God…
Does “NOT” MAKE / FORCE the man “TO BELIEVE” what he hears.

Many men, go to manmade Churches, hear Gods Word…. And Freely Choose to “NOT BELIEVE” what they hear!

There are EVEN men in the Churches who Preach and Teach Gods Word… but themselves “Do Not Believe or Do Gods Word”.

Maybe you recall such a “scriptural Example”… of Jesus calling “such men “ Hypocrites….and telling other men to “DO” what “they say”, but “Not to do what THEY Do.”

You don’t Recognize, mans FREEWILL …
IS man, hearing, speaking, Believing, that Which the man Freely Chooses…
To hear, Speak, Believe.

Did some “entity other than Yourself”…
Force You, to post Your thoughts, Your words, Your Beliefs TO me?

And Do you presume, I have NO FREEWILL to Agree or Object or Disagree with You?

FaithWillDo said:
So the question now is "what does God do to reveal that truth to a person"?

HOW God Reveals His Truth to manKIND is NOT in question.

Is ManKIND Forced Against his Own Will…
to Trust Gods Word, To Believe Gods Word, To Believe Gods Existence, Acts /Works, Power?

Obviously Not..
Millions of men, openly exercise “their” FREEWILL TO Stand Against.

Glory to God,
Taken

FaithWillDo · Jun 7, 2025

Taken said:
Forbare- “refrain FROM doing or using something”

Doing “or” Not Doing “IS” man exercising “his own WILL”.

The Lord GOD Himself knows manKIND freely exercises “his OWN WILL” to DO THIS or NOT DO THAT.

Ezek. 3:
[11b] Thus saith the Lord GOD; whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear.

Faith is a Gift FROM God, TO a man, FOR a man Hearing Gods Word.

And? Whether or Not a man Freely Chooses to Hear Gods Word???
IS the man Freely exercising “his own Will”.

Hearing the Word of God…
Does “NOT” MAKE / FORCE the man “TO BELIEVE” what he hears.

Many men, go to manmade Churches, hear Gods Word…. And Freely Choose to “NOT BELIEVE” what they hear!

There are EVEN men in the Churches who Preach and Teach Gods Word… but themselves “Do Not Believe or Do Gods Word”.

Maybe you recall such a “scriptural Example”… of Jesus calling “such men “ Hypocrites….and telling other men to “DO” what “they say”, but “Not to do what THEY Do.”

You don’t Recognize, mans FREEWILL …
IS man, hearing, speaking, Believing, that Which the man Freely Chooses…
To hear, Speak, Believe.

Did some “entity other than Yourself”…
Force You, to post Your thoughts, Your words, Your Beliefs TO me?

And Do you presume, I have NO FREEWILL to Agree or Object or Disagree with You?

HOW God Reveals His Truth to manKIND is NOT in question.

Is ManKIND Forced Against his Own Will…
to Trust Gods Word, To Believe Gods Word, To Believe Gods Existence, Acts /Works, Power?

Obviously Not..
Millions of men, openly exercise “their” FREEWILL TO Stand Against.

Glory to God,
Taken[/B]

Dear Taken,
Your comments are not supported by God's Word. Just because scripture says to make a "choice", that does not mean that the choice we make is free from divine intervention. You are adding your already existing belief in free will to scripture. You need to let scripture teach you by itself. If a verse is silent on something, look for the answer elsewhere in scripture. Why? Because God's Word is taught "here a little, and there a little". When we look to other scripture, it is very, very clear that mankind has no free will ability.

Consider these scriptures:

John 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

God intervened within the Nation of Israel and blinded them so that they would reject Christ. Only those who were given the Early Rain of the Spirit were not blinded. Does this sound like the Nation of Israel had a free will ability to decide for themselves who Christ was? Of course not.

In the verses below, does it show that David had a free will? Absolutely not.

2 Sam 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

How did God "move" David? He sent Satan to him.

1 Chron 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

Where is your free will ability that you say God has given to mankind in the verse below?

Judg 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech:

And here:

Prov 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

And these verses:

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, thou appointest peace to us, for, all our works also thou hast wrought for us.

Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

How can you possibly read the scriptures above and still believe that mankind has a free will ability? Does your truth come from scripture or does it come from what pleases you?

Look at the verse below and really consider what it says:

Ecc 3:1 To everything there is a season and a time to every purpose under the heaven.

If mankind has a free will, how can this verse be true?

The truth is that when Christ is ready for a person to have faith in Him, He will cause it to happen. A person cannot choose their time of salvation. If they could, then the scripture above is not true.

One final scripture:

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? Them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts (the converted Elect). 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

After Christ gives the Early Rain of the Spirit to a person, they become a "babe in Christ" who can only draw milk. Because they cannot receive the truth of Christ's New Covenant teachings, they will "fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken" by Satan. Does this happen by a babe's free will choice or does it happen because God causes it to happen them?

Because it is God's purpose for all new believers (babes) to become apostate and be "taken" by Satan, it will happen. No new believer has any free will ability to avoid it.

If the deceived babe is one of the Elect, Christ will return to them and give them the Latter Rain, followed by judgment. This event will convert them from being an apostate babe to being a child of God who is now able to learn the truths of God. When this happens, the person will come out from Satan's deceptions and will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children (no longer a babe who can only draw milk), ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Your belief in mankind's free will ability is a lie from Satan. He uses that lie to cause all "babes" to mix works with faith. The end result is that the babe falls from grace and becomes apostate. If you think that you can avoid it happening to you, you are denying the truth of God's Word.

If you can't accept what the scriptures above teach, there is nothing I can do to help you. It is simply not your established time to know the truth of God. But that day will come to you just as it will come to all mankind someday:

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

You should pray for understanding and for more faith. God is the only one who can give you these gifts.

Joe

Taken · Jun 7, 2025

FaithWillDo said:
Your comments are not supported by God's Word.

Disagree

FaithWillDo said:
Just because scripture says to make a "choice", that does not mean that the choice we make is free from divine intervention.

FaithWillDo said:
You are adding your already existing belief in free will to scripture.

No.

FaithWillDo said:
Consider these scriptures:

John 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

I am not Jewish.

No need for me to rehash what does not APPLY to me.

FaithWillDo said:
In the verses below, does it show that David had a free will? Absolutely not.

2 Sam 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

If you believe God “Forces” a man to Believe in Him, as you Imply..I disagree with you.

Posting a barrage of Scriptures that have Nothing to do with a man “choosing” to Believe IN God.. serve as no validation for your rejection of mans FREEWILL.

Not news, God directs men Faithful to God and such Faithful men comply.

Big Boy Johnson · Jun 7, 2025

The Gospel of Christ said:
Jesus Never Taught a Rapture Escape Plan

You don't think Jesus told the Apostles that wrote the New Testament what to write then?

FaithWillDo · Jun 8, 2025

Taken said:
Disagree

No.

No need for me to rehash what does not APPLY to me.

If you believe God “Forces” a man to Believe in Him, as you Imply..I disagree with you.

Posting a barrage of Scriptures that have Nothing to do with a man “choosing” to Believe IN God.. serve as no validation for your rejection of mans FREEWILL.

Not news, God directs men Faithful to God and such Faithful men comply.

Dear Taken,
I will reply to your last comments.

You said:
If you believe God “Forces” a man to Believe in Him, as you Imply..I disagree with you.

Why do you think that I believe that God forces us to have faith in Christ? I have never said anything of the kind and neither does scripture.

Christ does not force anyone to believe or submit to Him. What Christ does do is to give a person the Holy Spirit so that their heart and mind are changed.

After the Spirit indwells a person, the Spirit will give them their faith and make them willing to submit to Christ's authority over them (call Him "Lord"). This willing submission is what gives glory to the Father:

Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

You said:
Posting a barrage of Scriptures that have Nothing to do with a man “choosing” to Believe IN God.. serve as no validation for your rejection of mans FREEWILL.

Not news, God directs men Faithful to God and such Faithful men comply.

It sounds like you have a disdain for the scriptures I posted.

Also, the scriptures that I posted have everything to do with what mankind chooses and does.

Do you reject the scripture below, too?

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

God is the cause of what a person "wills" and what a person "does". When a person makes a confession of faith, it is only because God caused it to happen. God is the source of everything that happens within His creation. He leaves nothing up to chance or to a supposed free will ability that you believe mankind has. God is in full control and His control over mankind is primarily spiritual. The spiritual happens within the heart and mind of an individual.

Look at these verses again:

Prov 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

Does it sound like a king or any man has a free will ability to direct their own path?

If you can read these verses and still believe that mankind has a free will, you are not being honest with yourself. You are rejecting the clear teachings of scripture so that your false beliefs will not fall - but they will fall someday because the Word of God proclaims that they will.

Here is how it will happen to you - either in this age before you die (if you are elect) or in the final age in the Lake of Fire:

When Christ returns to a person and pours out the Latter Rain of the Spirit, they are in an apostate condition and are mixing their own works with faith. But after the baptism of the Spirit, a spiritual earthquake will occur within the person which will shake the foundations of their false beliefs. The Doctrine of Free Will and Hell are two of those foundations. Lightning (represents judgment) will then flash which will destroy those foundations. After it does, the deceptive power of Satan over the person's beliefs will fall and their sun and moon will be darkened. As a result, they will no longer receive their light (truth) from this world. The Sun of righteous will then rise in their heart and their truth will only come from Christ, the Word of God.

Here is how Christ describes the conversion process in His spiritual language:

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the (great) tribulation of those days (time as an apostate believer) shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see (spiritual blindness healed) the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The scripture above is teaching about what happens during a person's time of conversion.

This is the same event as the "first resurrection" mentioned in Rev 20:5-6. This resurrection is a spiritual resurrection from being spiritually dead to being spiritually alive. This is when a person is "born again". After the birth of the child of God, the person is spiritually gathered to heaven (not literally) to dwell with Christ. In other words, they will no longer live on the earth (apostate babes) or in the sea (unbelievers) as the children of the devil do.

Now compare what Peter said just after he was converted with what Christ stated in Mat 24:29-31:

Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days (end of the ages/time of conversion), saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit (Latter Rain) upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, BEFORE the great and notable Day of the Lord come come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Peter is describing the same event that Christ described in Mat 24:29-31. This is a person's moment of salvation/conversion. With the baptism of the Spirit, a person's spiritual blindness will be healed which will result in the true Christ spiritually appearing to them.

Eventually, all mankind will be converted and will "see" the true Christ:

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds (His witnesses/the Elect); and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

As with all mankind, we must wait on the Lord for our salvation and He decides when it will happen, not us.

Joe

Taken · Jun 8, 2025

FaithWillDo said:
Dear Taken,
I will reply to your last comments.

You said:
If you believe God “Forces” a man to Believe in Him, as you Imply..I disagree with you.

Why do you think that I believe that God forces us to have faith in Christ? I have never said anything of the kind and neither does scripture.

Christ does not force anyone to believe or submit to Him. What Christ does do is to give a person the Holy Spirit so that their heart and mind are changed.

You said:

FaithWillDo said:
“Just because scripture says to make a "choice", that does not mean that the choice we make is free from divine intervention.”

A mans “choice” is According to the mans “freewill”.
Will the man hear…
Will the man follow…
Will the man Believe…
Will the man continue…

Often “said”… in a past tense in scripture ie, “wilt”.

FaithWillDo said:
After the Spirit indwells a person,

Disagree.

FaithWillDo said:
the Spirit will give them their faith and make them willing to submit to Christ's authority over them (call Him "Lord"). This willing submission is what gives glory to the Father:

You have “them” being “indwelt” with the Spirit… Before “submission.”

Disagree…
The hearing…blessing of Faith given.
They WITH God…God WITH them.
They continue WITH God…God continues WITH them.
(They leave God… God leaves Them… they called, fallen from Faith.)
They keeps staying WITH (enduring), Believing, they Prepared to Confess their (Heartful belief).
They DO confess their TRUE Heartful Belief???
THEN…Become “Made” “Changed” … Receiving…;
* the Holy Spirit of God “IN” Them ( along with all of Gods Works that Change that man AND that mans “spirit”.
* NOW… is that man called…”WITH-IN”, “IN - Christ”… AND forever / eternally that man “KEPT”…. WITH… the Lord God Almighty…AND BY Gods Power ( Who IS Christ.)
(OSAS concept).

FaithWillDo said:
Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

This passage… is not a consequence of “non- believing men “believing” Gods Spoken Word.”

This passage IS fulfilled during “Judgement”…
ALL… Shall Believe, bend, bow, worship…
Expressly… Because ALL, Bodys shall be raised, (believers, non-believers)… the non- believers Shall Believe…
Because…(the Judge” … Christ the Lord, having returned to Earth, in the Visible Likeness AS a man… Allows ALL men to SEE Him.
They who SEE… Him with a spiritual “reborn nature” are raised with spiritual sight……and they “not born again, retain their natural instinct … See “the Son of man”…. And because they SEE, they Then Believe… noe, worship….
And Thus Fulfill “Prophecy”…

Isa 45:
[23] I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

FaithWillDo said:
You said:

It sounds like you have a disdain for the scriptures I posted.

Uh no… not interested in going off point.

FaithWillDo · Jun 8, 2025

Taken said:
You said:

A mans “choice” is According to the mans “freewill”.
Will the man hear…
Will the man follow…
Will the man Believe…
Will the man continue…

Often “said”… in a past tense in scripture ie, “wilt”.

Disagree.

You have “them” being “indwelt” with the Spirit… Before “submission.”

Disagree…
The hearing…blessing of Faith given.
They WITH God…God WITH them.
They continue WITH God…God continues WITH them.
(They leave God… God leaves Them… they called, fallen from Faith.)
They keeps staying WITH (enduring), Believing, they Prepared to Confess their (Heartful belief).
They DO confess their TRUE Heartful Belief???
THEN…Become “Made” “Changed” … Receiving…;
* the Holy Spirit of God “IN” Them ( along with all of Gods Works that Change that man AND that mans “spirit”.
* NOW… is that man called…”WITH-IN”, “IN - Christ”… AND forever / eternally that man “KEPT”…. WITH… the Lord God Almighty…AND BY Gods Power ( Who IS Christ.)
(OSAS concept).

This passage… is not a consequence of “non- believing men “believing” Gods Spoken Word.”

This passage IS fulfilled during “Judgement”…
ALL… Shall Believe, bend, bow, worship…
Expressly… Because ALL, Bodys shall be raised, (believers, non-believers)… the non- believers Shall Believe…
Because…(the Judge” … Christ the Lord, having returned to Earth, in the Visible Likeness AS a man… Allows ALL men to SEE Him.
They who SEE… Him with a spiritual “reborn nature” are raised with spiritual sight……and they “not born again, retain their natural instinct … See “the Son of man”…. And because they SEE, they Then Believe… noe, worship….
And Thus Fulfill “Prophecy”…

Isa 45:
[23] I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Uh no… not interested in going off point.

Dear Taken,
You literally have no scriptural support for your beliefs.

You said:
You have “them” being “indwelt” with the Spirit… Before “submission.”

Yes, and I say that because that is what scripture teaches:

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

When a person calls Jesus "Lord", they are submitting to His authority over their own life. As the verse says, this cannot happen unless they have the Holy Spirit beforehand. Why can't you accept this truth?

When Paul was traveling to Damascus, he hated Christ at that time. But when Christ "suddenly" (no submission beforehand) came to Paul, Christ gave Paul the Early Rain of the Spirit. With the Spirit, Paul immediately fell to his knees and called Jesus "Lord".

Acts 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly, there shined round about him a light from heaven: 4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecute thou me? 5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecute: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

Because of Paul's submission to Christ, we can be 100% sure that Paul was given the Early Rain of the Spirit beforehand because without the Spirit, "no man can say that Jesus is Lord".

Why does Christ act first and not the individual? The answer is given to us in the scriptures below:

Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

When a preacher presents the Gospel to a person, if Christ has not already given them the Early Rain of the Spirit, they are going to reject Christ 100% of the time. It is not the person's fault that they reject Christ. They reject Him only because Christ chose not to give them the small measure of the Spirit beforehand. When a person rejects Christ, the preacher should just move onto another place and seek out those who have been made ready by Christ.

You said:
This passage… is not a consequence of “non- believing men “believing” Gods Spoken Word.”

This passage IS fulfilled during “Judgement”…
ALL… Shall Believe, bend, bow, worship…
Expressly… Because ALL, Bodys shall be raised, (believers, non-believers)… the non- believers Shall Believe…
Because…(the Judge” … Christ the Lord, having returned to Earth, in the Visible Likeness AS a man… Allows ALL men to SEE Him.
They who SEE… Him with a spiritual “reborn nature” are raised with spiritual sight……and they “not born again, retain their natural instinct … See “the Son of man”…. And because they SEE, they Then Believe… noe, worship….
And Thus Fulfill “Prophecy”…

Isa 45:
[23] I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

No, the passage is fulfilled as a result of conversion. Without the Spirit, no man can submit to Christ and call Him Lord.

I remember a sermon by John Hagee where he addressed this scripture. He said that even if Christ has to break a person's legs, He is going to get them to bow to Him. It is blasphemous to even suggest that our loving Savior would lower Himself to be like carnal mankind. And John Hagee believes that this type of forced submission will give glory to the Father. It is amazing that John Hagee has anyone listen to him - but he does because his teachings are pleasing to the carnal mind of mankind.

Here is the full scripture from Isa 45. You omitted the key portion of the scripture:

Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

The scripture is talking about salvation and not judgment. After all mankind has bowed their knee to Christ (submission/called Him Lord), all mankind will be saved. This truth is confirmed by other scriptures like the ones below:

Rom 5:18 so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life. 19 For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man the many have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many will be constituted righteous.

1Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Where is your faith to believe God's Word over the teachings of people like John Hagee?

Joe

The Gospel of Christ · Jun 8, 2025

Big Boy Johnson said:
You don't think Jesus told the Apostles that wrote the New Testament what to write then?

So you're saying Jesus never taught a pre-trib rapture, but Paul revealed it later — even though Paul himself says the rapture won’t happen until after the Antichrist is revealed (2 Thess. 2:1–3)?

That’s not divine revelation. That’s Scofield fiction.

Search

Search

The Tribulation Isn’t What You Think

The Gospel of Christ

Well-Known Member

ScottA

Well-Known Member

FaithWillDo

Well-Known Member

Taken

Well-Known Member

Taken

Well-Known Member

FaithWillDo

Well-Known Member

Taken

Well-Known Member

FaithWillDo

Well-Known Member

Taken

Well-Known Member

FaithWillDo

Well-Known Member

Taken

Well-Known Member

Big Boy Johnson

Well-Known Member

FaithWillDo

Well-Known Member

Taken

Well-Known Member

FaithWillDo

Well-Known Member

The Gospel of Christ

Well-Known Member

Similar threads

The Tribulation Isn’t What You Think

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

​

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

​

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads